Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical

[Hevosmies]

My name is Alan Finch. I became a Christian 42 years ago.

It is important to understand that the Lake of Fire is not a physical Lake of Fire. The Biblical phrase “Lake of Fire” is symbolic for a Spiritual Lake of Fire which is representative of the FIRE of God’s Spirit that is going to do a transforming work of “Divine Purification” in each individual that comes before the Great White Throne Judgment. This transforming work from God’s Spirit will give these individuals a full understanding of God’s Boundless Love for them and the entire human race. (Note: The Scriptures do not reveal how long that this process will take)

I have written a 26 page article that Biblically deals with this subject extensively. If anyone would like a copy, feel free to e-mail me and ask for a copy and I will e-mail you a copy.

[email protected]

Like all universalists. You spout UNBIBLICAL lingo. WHERE does it say the lake of fire is a "transforming work from God's spirit will give these individuals a full understanding of God's boundless love for them"? Completely unbiblical. There is no mention in revelation 21 or 22 about anyone ever getting out of the lake of fire. That case is closed.

If you need to write a 26 page article to teach on a simple subject like lake of fire / hell, you are most likely teaching something false. I can teach lake of fire/hell within a minute and less than 1 page.

And Ahwatukee you seem to have great insight on the Scriptures, you really helped me figure out Revelation 12:5, and also I agree with you that churches that teach amillennialism are probably not the best ones to ask for advice. Its basically just throwing out a bunch of chapters from the word.

 

[garee]

Just a few thoughts:

The word "eternal" fire means until it finishes what it accomplishes.

Furthermore an "eternal fire" doesn't mean it's "eternal suffering".

Eternal judgment doesn't mean it's "eternal suffering". Simply that the consequences of the judgment are eternal.

Also Scripture says this about death, “And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God, who gave it.”

I agree. I would offer it in this way. The fire will rise until the fuel is exhausted. And eternal judgment means never to rise to new Spirt life.

Whosoever does not have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God they will not rise of the last day. Their temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father of sprits and their bodies as beast of the field made of dust returns to the lifeless, spiritless rudiments of this world

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

Genesis 2:7And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ecclesiastes 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[garee]

Hello Alan,

The lake of fire is a literal place of physical punishment in literal flame. There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. The word "anastasis" translated "resurrection" is defined by two words ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly "to stand up again in a physical body." Jesus is our example in that, He reentered His same body three days after He died, which rose immortal and glorified.

All that said, when the wicked die in their sins, their spirit departs and goes directly into Shoel/Hades where they begin their punishment for sin against God (Luke 16:19-31). For when king David sinned he said, "Against You, You only, I have sinned," recognizing that all sin is against God. After the millennial period will be the great white throne judgment, where all of the unrighteous dead will resurrected, receiving physical bodies fit for their punishment and will be judged for every sin they ever committed and cast into the lake of fire.

In addition, there is no purification for those who die in their sins, for at that time their record is sealed and there is not salvation after death. For those who die in this state, God's love, mercy and grace are no longer in operation for them. Regarding this, if you notice at the great white throne judgment, it is the dead, which is referring to their status with God that are being judged. The books will be opened which contain all of their works of sin and they will be held accountable for every idle word that they spoke (Matt.12:36). Today, is the day of salvation. There is no salvation after death for those who die in their sins.

What are you doing is preaching Satan's message and not the word of God.

Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is a real place of spiritual and physical punishment in literal flame and eternal separation from God.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

Everyone who comes into the world is already on the broad road and therefore condemned and which leads to complete loss of well being and eternal ruination. The only way to get off of that road is through having faith in Christ as the One who provided salvation for us. Anyone who rejects Christ and dies in that state, remains unreconciled to God and therefore condemned.

It would seem you are promoting necromancy, which is a line of communication between those alive and those who have no spirit life.

There is no communication between the dead and the living. Like the parable concerning Lazrus and the rich man.

That is how the purgatory doctrine formed.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: Genesis 3:4


Those who die having not received a new incorruptible Spirit of Christsimply will not rise on the last day and receive their promise a new incorruptible body.

 

[Lillywolf]

Does the Bible give us a clear picture of hell.

There are so many conflicting views on what hell is and what's it's like and who goes there.

My brother recently committed suicide and I'm so afraid that he's in hell now. He professed to be a believer in Christ, but I don't even know if it's possible for a true believer to take their own life.

In any case, hell is the most horrible thing one can imagine. It's rare to hear a sermon on hell, so it's one of those subjects nobody likes to talk about.

I would really like to know the truth about hell, are there people in it now, if so are they going to continue to burn forever, do all of it's inhabitants suffer the same punishment or level of pain, do the dead go to heaven or hell as soon as they die or do they have to wait for judgement day and is it possible for anyone who has taken their own life to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I'm absolutely devastated by the loss of my brother whom I loved dearly and I'm struggling with the thought that he might be suffering as we speak. Is it worth praying for him now, or is it too late to pray for him.

I can't imagine your pain wondering about your dear brother and where he is now.
Maybe this will help you. Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Like all universalists. You spout UNBIBLICAL lingo. WHERE does it say the lake of fire is a "transforming work from God's spirit will give these individuals a full understanding of God's boundless love for them"? Completely unbiblical. There is no mention in revelation 21 or 22 about anyone ever getting out of the lake of fire. That case is closed.

If you need to write a 26 page article to teach on a simple subject like lake of fire / hell, you are most likely teaching something false. I can teach lake of fire/hell within a minute and less than 1 page.

And Ahwatukee you seem to have great insight on the Scriptures, you really helped me figure out Revelation 12:5, and also I agree with you that churches that teach amillennialism are probably not the best ones to ask for advice. Its basically just throwing out a bunch of chapters from the word.

Blessings Hevosmies,

Thank you! And likewise, God has also given you wisdom and understanding of His word. I know that I don't have to tell you that it is refreshing to meet others who understand the same truths of God's word and that because we seem to be dealing with so much false teachers and their teachings these days. It seems like Satan the powers of darkness have pulled out all the stops so-to-speak and have just inundated the world with false teachings on every Biblical issue and that using those calling themselves Christians!

I'm amazed at how many Satan has deceived regarding the timing of the gathering of the church, as if the Lord would put His bride through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then gather them.

Then there are those who read the scripture which states that there will be a literal thousand years and they don't believe it, but instead allegorize it, claiming that Jesus already came and that we are already living in the millennial period.

Then you've got those who distort God's word regarding eternal punishment and like Rob Love claiming that everyone eventually goes to heaven. And this same subject, we have those who believe and teach on annihilation, all while ignoring the supporting words of, everlasting, forever and ever, eternal, no rest day or night, etc., etc.

Then there are the legalists! They claim salvation through Jesus only, but at the same time have resurrected their own little list of the works of the law as requirement for salvation along side Christ's finished work on the cross. The Lord doesn't need any help from us in completing salvation, as it has already been accomplished completely by Him. Our part is faith.

Regarding Rev.12:5, expositors usually just identify the Male child with what appears on the surface to be Christ. However, when one really looks at the context of what being said and compare Jesus to those characteristics, it becomes clear that Jesus cannot possibly be the Male Child. One of the obvious red flags is the use of the word "harpazo" which as you know is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven and when the church is "caught up" at the Lord's appearing. It is also used regarding Philip being "caught away" from the Eunuch and whisked away to another city. Who needs cars!

The word "harpazo" is defined as "force suddenly exercised, to be snatched away or suddenly caught up, away." Therefore, looking at just this word alone, Jesus does fit that criteria, as He was not forcefully caught up or snatched away, but was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. On the other hand, the dragon/Satan is waiting to devour the Male Child and it is caught up to God's throne before the dragon/Satan can harm it. Then He goes after the Woman who will have given birth to the Male Child and doesn't get her either because God swallows up the torrent of water/army that the dragon/Satan spews out of his mouth by opening up the earth, just like Dathan, Abiram and all of their families, except on a much larger scale.


As Jude wrote, continue contending for the faith, because certain men have crept in and are distorting the word of God from every side.

Blessings to you!

 

[Hevosmies]

Blessings Hevosmies,

Thank you! And likewise, God has also given you wisdom and understanding of His word. I know that I don't have to tell you that it is refreshing to meet others who understand the same truths of God's word and that because we seem to be dealing with so much false teachers and their teachings these days. It seems like Satan the powers of darkness have pulled out all the stops so-to-speak and have just inundated the world with false teachings on every Biblical issue and that using those calling themselves Christians!

I'm amazed at how many Satan has deceived regarding the timing of the gathering of the church, as if the Lord would put His bride through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then gather them.

Then there are those who read the scripture which states that there will be a literal thousand years and they don't believe it, but instead allegorize it, claiming that Jesus already came and that we are already living in the millennial period.

Then you've got those who distort God's word regarding eternal punishment and like Rob Love claiming that everyone eventually goes to heaven. And this same subject, we have those who believe and teach on annihilation, all while ignoring the supporting words of, everlasting, forever and ever, eternal, no rest day or night, etc., etc.

Then there are the legalists! They claim salvation through Jesus only, but at the same time have resurrected their own little list of the works of the law as requirement for salvation along side Christ's finished work on the cross. The Lord doesn't need any help from us in completing salvation, as it has already been accomplished completely by Him. Our part is faith.

Regarding Rev.12:5, expositors usually just identify the Male child with what appears on the surface to be Christ. However, when one really looks at the context of what being said and compare Jesus to those characteristics, it becomes clear that Jesus cannot possibly be the Male Child. One of the obvious red flags is the use of the word "harpazo" which as you know is the same word used when Paul was "caught up" to the third heaven and when the church is "caught up" at the Lord's appearing. It is also used regarding Philip being "caught away" from the Eunuch and whisked away to another city. Who needs cars!

The word "harpazo" is defined as "force suddenly exercised, to be snatched away or suddenly caught up, away." Therefore, looking at just this word alone, Jesus does fit that criteria, as He was not forcefully caught up or snatched away, but was crucified, buried, resurrected and later ascended to God's right hand. On the other hand, the dragon/Satan is waiting to devour the Male Child and it is caught up to God's throne before the dragon/Satan can harm it. Then He goes after the Woman who will have given birth to the Male Child and doesn't get her either because God swallows up the torrent of water/army that the dragon/Satan spews out of his mouth by opening up the earth, just like Dathan, Abiram and all of their families, except on a much larger scale.


As Jude wrote, continue contending for the faith, because certain men have crept in and are distorting the word of God from every side.

Blessings to you!

Thanks for your response brother.

I must say I am still undecided (hence why I never teach on it, cause not sure!) on the gathering of the church and if its pre-trib or post-trib. If revelation had a verse mentioning the rapture prior to the trumpets and seals I think that would solve the debate.

On one side we have the rapture at the last trumpet, which is Revelation 11:15 where Jesus begins His reign. The first resurrection. But then on the other hand the people on your side say that cannot be the last trumpet because that would put the church through the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb, to which they are not appointed to.

I will read through Revelation again and try to look for the rapture if its in there somewhere. The problem im having placing the rapture is that I cannot find it in the book of Revelation: Not before, during, or after the tribulation it never mentions that anywhere. I am glad to be proven wrong on this though. Maybe you could help me locate it, as you helped me with Revelation 12:5?

 

[garee]

I'm amazed at how many Satan has deceived regarding the timing of the gathering of the church, as if the Lord would put His bride through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and then gather them.

Chapter 11 shows the end of time has come. The saints that are asleep as beheaded souls and the ones that did remain on earth reigning with Christ who indwells all believers up till the last day will be raised upward as the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of God in the new heavens and earth. The two witnesses as two prophets, the law and the prophets have also left. The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind .

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.And the seventh angel sounded; (the last trump) and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Revelation 11:11-16

Then there are those who read the scripture which states that there will be a literal thousand years and they don't believe it, but instead allegorize it, claiming that Jesus already came and that we are already living in the millennial period.

The last days the whole new testament era began when the veil was rent the time of reformation. It will continue till the last day when all will be changed in the twinkling of the eye into the incorruptible.

If the signified language (verse 1 of Revelation 1 ) does not set the standard for hearing God throughout the whole book by using the temporal things seen to give us the hidden gospel in respect to the things not seen as metaphors used in parable. Then we could assume we look to the literal thousand years.

The Amil position works the best. No literal thousand years . No literal anything in Chapter 20.

(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven...…. Can't see spirits that have no form.

(2) having the key ….. Not a literal key but the gospel, the key that unlocks the non literal gates of hell.

(3) of the bottomless pit..... Not a literal bottomless pit but a metaphor to represent no end.

(3) and a great chain in his hand..... Again not a literal chain or a literal hand . Hand is used to represent will chain to represent the binding and lossening authority of the gospel

(5) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan...... again not a literal dragon but metaphors to represent the lying spirit as the father of lies

Again we look to the signified language as those who walk by faith not by sight as if the kingdom came by observation

The word thousand is used through the scripture as a unknown as to what ever is in view. The thousand added to the 144 (144,000) represents the bride of Christ as those who have been elected to salvation

The dimensions and description given of the New Jerusalem in the Bible’s book or chapter of Revelation have multiples of the number 12. The wall of the city has 12 foundations and the names of the 12 apostles with Judas missing to represent a evil . This includes the 12 gates as tribes with the tribe of Dan missing to represent the same kind of evil.

The city measured 12,000 furlongs and the wall was 144 cubits, which is 12 x 12. The number 12 is symbolic of God’s spiritual kingdom, both in heaven and on earth, when the earth and heavens will be created anew.

 

[Hevosmies]

Chapter 11 shows the end of time has come. The saints that are asleep as beheaded souls and the ones that did remain on earth reigning with Christ who indwells all believers up till the last day will be raised upward as the kingdoms of this world become the kingdom of God in the new heavens and earth. The two witnesses as two prophets, the law and the prophets have also left. The former things will not be remembered or ever come to mind .

And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.And the seventh angel sounded; (the last trump) and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Revelation 11:11-16




The last days the whole new testament era began when the veil was rent the time of reformation. It will continue till the last day when all will be changed in the twinkling of the eye into the incorruptible.

If the signified language (verse 1 of Revelation 1 ) does not set the standard for hearing God throughout the whole book by using the temporal things seen to give us the hidden gospel in respect to the things not seen as metaphors used in parable. Then we could assume we look to the literal thousand years.

The Amil position works the best. No literal thousand years . No literal anything in Chapter 20.

(1) And I saw an angel come down from heaven...…. Can't see spirits that have no form.

(2) having the key ….. Not a literal key but the gospel, the key that unlocks the non literal gates of hell.

(3) of the bottomless pit..... Not a literal bottomless pit but a metaphor to represent no end.

(3) and a great chain in his hand..... Again not a literal chain or a literal hand . Hand is used to represent will chain to represent the binding and lossening authority of the gospel

(5) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan...... again not a literal dragon but metaphors to represent the lying spirit as the father of lies

Again we look to the signified language as those who walk by faith not by sight as if the kingdom came by observation

The word thousand is used through the scripture as a unknown as to what ever is in view. The thousand added to the 144 (144,000) represents the bride of Christ as those who have been elected to salvation

The dimensions and description given of the New Jerusalem in the Bible’s book or chapter of Revelation have multiples of the number 12. The wall of the city has 12 foundations and the names of the 12 apostles with Judas missing to represent a evil . This includes the 12 gates as tribes with the tribe of Dan missing to represent the same kind of evil.

The city measured 12,000 furlongs and the wall was 144 cubits, which is 12 x 12. The number 12 is symbolic of God’s spiritual kingdom, both in heaven and on earth, when the earth and heavens will be created anew.

So many errors here I dont know where to begin.

Phew! You just add "non-literal" to everything.... Who said angels are invisible btw? Lot seemed to see them without a problem.

The fact is that Revelation 20 mentions nothing about the gospel, you simply added that to the text. I also caution everyone reading this text to go and read revelation 20 for yourself, and see if what is being presented as a "figurative" first resurrection lines up with the scriptures? See if what is being presented makes sense, or if things like "The thousand added to the 144 000 represent those who have been elected to salvation" is indeed an invention of man, not found in the text?
Especially when the word resurrection means to stand up again, in the flesh, you are there. And notice how the first resurrection is supposedly spiritual, but the second one is literal? Yeah I will not buy that snake-oil.

 

[garee]

Thanks for your response brother.

I must say I am still undecided (hence why I never teach on it, cause not sure!) on the gathering of the church and if its pre-trib or post-trib. If revelation had a verse mentioning the rapture prior to the trumpets and seals I think that would solve the debate.

On one side we have the rapture at the last trumpet, which is Revelation 11:15 where Jesus begins His reign. The first resurrection. But then on the other hand the people on your side say that cannot be the last trumpet because that would put the church through the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb, to which they are not appointed to.

I will read through Revelation again and try to look for the rapture if its in there somewhere. The problem im having placing the rapture is that I cannot find it in the book of Revelation: Not before, during, or after the tribulation it never mentions that anywhere. I am glad to be proven wrong on this though. Maybe you could help me locate it, as you helped me with Revelation 12:5?

The final rapture or 2nd resurrection will occur on the last day. Six times in the book of John the phrase "last day" representing the day of the lord in Revelation 1 appears . This is the execution of judgment day (not a day of trial. The unbelievers (no faith) have already been declared guilty by not believing the gospel) the second death for the unbeliever and the day the saints receive their new incorruptible bodies, for the believers.

The idea of the church not going through the tribulation would seem to be a dividing factor.

The idea of saints disappearing and then returning does not seem to fit? Where did that idea came from?

 

[carl11]

So many errors here I dont know where to begin.

Phew! You just add "non-literal" to everything.... Who said angels are invisible btw? Lot seemed to see them without a problem.

The fact is that Revelation 20 mentions nothing about the gospel, you simply added that to the text. I also caution everyone reading this text to go and read revelation 20 for yourself, and see if what is being presented as a "figurative" first resurrection lines up with the scriptures? See if what is being presented makes sense, or if things like "The thousand added to the 144 000 represent those who have been elected to salvation" is indeed an invention of man, not found in the text?
Especially when the word resurrection means to stand up again, in the flesh, you are there. And notice how the first resurrection is supposedly spiritual, but the second one is literal? Yeah I will not buy that snake-oil.

The gospel is there just not forth outright. For example the Binding of Satan coincides with that of Pentecost, because before that time virtually no one became saved and then peter preached and about 3 thousand became saved. In Rev. 20 we have those that reign with Christ the true believers and notice that they have a beginning but no ending signifying the true believers will be with Christ forever.

 

[PennEd]

So many errors here I dont know where to begin.

Phew! You just add "non-literal" to everything.... Who said angels are invisible btw? Lot seemed to see them without a problem.

The fact is that Revelation 20 mentions nothing about the gospel, you simply added that to the text. I also caution everyone reading this text to go and read revelation 20 for yourself, and see if what is being presented as a "figurative" first resurrection lines up with the scriptures? See if what is being presented makes sense, or if things like "The thousand added to the 144 000 represent those who have been elected to salvation" is indeed an invention of man, not found in the text?
Especially when the word resurrection means to stand up again, in the flesh, you are there. And notice how the first resurrection is supposedly spiritual, but the second one is literal? Yeah I will not buy that snake-oil.

The more I study the Word and it's immense beauty, symmetry, and Love by the ultimate Author, the LESS tolerance I have for Allegorical, non-literal "interpretations" of it. We all fully understand that the Bible does have dozens of different types of figures of speech. But when the text itself doesn't say things akin to "like" to describe something or the context doesn't allow for allegories, we do damage to the Word when that is done.

I do believe at some point these views stray into actual unbelief.

 

[garee]

So many errors here I dont know where to begin.

Phew! You just add "non-literal" to everything.... Who said angels are invisible btw? Lot seemed to see them without a problem.

I would think we should begin in Genesis, the beginning of the gospel (good news) .

There are two kind of messengers (angels) Those seen as sons of God the believers and those not seen, the angel that did not leave their first place of habitation who are also considered sons of God . The Son of man Jesus, the chief messenger in respect to that seen the temporal as those who are led by the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God .

The later as that seen the believers that hold out the gospel

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

It might be a good place to start by acknowledging the kind of language the book of Revelation is written after, seeing it is not only inspired but also signified or other synonyms that apply used in parables …. denote · designate ·represent .symbolize. stand for .corresponds to .be equivalent to , or implied ·

Revelation 1:1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

The fact is that Revelation 20 mentions nothing about the gospel, you simply added that to the text.

The whole Bible is the gospel, beginning in Genesis 1, ending in Revelation 22

I also caution everyone reading this text to go and read revelation 20 for yourself, and see if what is being presented as a "figurative" first resurrection lines up with the scriptures? See if what is being presented makes sense, or if things like "The thousand added to the 144 000 represent those who have been elected to salvation" is indeed an invention of man, not found in the text?
Especially when the word resurrection means to stand up again, in the flesh, you are there. And notice how the first resurrection is supposedly spiritual, but the second one is literal? Yeah I will not buy that snake-oil.

The first resurrection (both are spiritual) flesh and blood could never enter the kingdom of God....which is not of this world .

It occurred when Christ said; "it is finished" all the graves were opened, the Old testament born again saints entered in, it was witnessed by many angels . It is that resurrection as in absent of the body is to be present with the Lord in the new Jerusalem as the bride of Christ .All who die in Christ up until the last day enter in. On the last day those still here on earth reigning with Christ who indwells them will be caught up together with those who did have a part in the first resurrection and both will receive the promise of their incorruptible bodies

A good study of the word "thousand" as to how it is used can help a person understand that without parables (the signified language ).,. Christ spoke not to the multitude (every person) .Hiding the gospel as to the spiritual understanding from the lost.

 

[garee]

The gospel is there just not forth outright. For example the Binding of Satan coincides with that of Pentecost, because before that time virtually no one became saved and then peter preached and about 3 thousand became saved. In Rev. 20 we have those that reign with Christ the true believers and notice that they have a beginning but no ending signifying the true believers will be with Christ forever.

I would suggest not that no one one saved. The old testemnt saintaints had the Sprit of Christ the spirit of grace in them .They simply could not enter the new Jerusalem prepared as the bride of Christ the church until the veil was rent . They were in a holding pen.... the bosom of Abraham as the invisible presence of God awaiting the results of Christ's trial who stood in our place as guilty sinners.

They received the end of their faith, the salvation of their soul as that comes from hearing God just as us on this side of the renting of the veil(the cross) . We as apologist defend the faith of Christ, the sword of His Spirit the word of God . It defends us as the armor we are to put on and keep on.

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter1:7-11

The glory that did follow.... their graves were opened and they entered the new heavenly Jerusalem prepared as His eternal bride, the church .The first resurrection.

 

[garee]

The more I study the Word and it's immense beauty, symmetry, and Love by the ultimate Author, the LESS tolerance I have for Allegorical, non-literal "interpretations" of it. We all fully understand that the Bible does have dozens of different types of figures of speech. But when the text itself doesn't say things akin to "like" to describe something or the context doesn't allow for allegories, we do damage to the Word when that is done.

I do believe at some point these views stray into actual unbelief.

With all due respect .That's one way to look at it.

The prescription in regard to as it is written, the same spirit of faith not seen , and not the letter as the literal as that seen ... that informs us that without parables Christ spoke not....purposely hiding the spiritual understanding from the lost, does not inform us... if the literal makes literal sense do not look for the unseen understanding as spiritual. No such prescription . Parables as to their hidden meanings are understood according to 2 Corinthians 4:18.

The word it in, as it is written represents the unseen eternal faith of Christ. It is that it in which the gates of hell could never prevail against.

We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen "are temporal"; but the things which are not seen "are eternal".2 Corinthians
4:18

For instance we know that as a metaphor God is considered our Rock to represent his immutable attributes apposed to their rocks a multitude of gods.

In the parable below the Holy Spirit uses the word "thousand" to represent all, as a unknown, or two as ten thousand as multiples of the word thousand using the word thousand as a metaphor,

How should one chase a thousand, and two put ten thousand to flight, except their Rock had sold them, and the Lord had shut them up?For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Deuteronomy 32:31

In the new testament we are shown that the law of God typified by Moses will not enter the new heavens and earth.

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 16:17And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.

In the Old tesement we are given a historaicl true parable regarding the law.... again signified by Moses will not enter the promised land .

'Having aready established previously the rod of Aaron a metaphor that speaks to those who ho have no faith, a sign against those who rebel.

Note.. (purple in parenthesis) my added suggestions as personal opinions, called private interpretations.

Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock (representing Christ not seen) before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water(used to represent the gospel) , and thou shalt bring forth to them water( the gospel)out of the rock:(Christ) so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink. And Moses (a figure of the law as to the letter that kills) took the rod from before the Lord, as he commanded him. And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; (giving meaning to the word rod) must we fetch you water out of this rock? And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: (struck once by our father in heaven) and the water (gospel) came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron,(representing the law that kills ) Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.(representing the new heavens and earth and again fulfilling the requirements of Mathew 5:18 and Luke 16:17) Number 20 :8-12

 

[JaumeJ]

God came to me in the manner only He knew I needed for He knows my heart. So it is with allwho believe Him.

He allows for us to very, one from another, in matters that have no bearing onour salvation, though oft time matters do.

It is not for us to judge how others believe, only to share our understanding as given us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thanks for your response brother.

I must say I am still undecided (hence why I never teach on it, cause not sure!) on the gathering of the church and if its pre-trib or post-trib. If revelation had a verse mentioning the rapture prior to the trumpets and seals I think that would solve the debate.

On one side we have the rapture at the last trumpet, which is Revelation 11:15 where Jesus begins His reign. The first resurrection. But then on the other hand the people on your side say that cannot be the last trumpet because that would put the church through the tribulation and wrath of the Lamb, to which they are not appointed to.

I will read through Revelation again and try to look for the rapture if its in there somewhere. The problem im having placing the rapture is that I cannot find it in the book of Revelation: Not before, during, or after the tribulation it never mentions that anywhere. I am glad to be proven wrong on this though. Maybe you could help me locate it, as you helped me with Revelation 12:5?

Good day!

Regarding Revelation having a verse mentioning the rapture prior to the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments. This is what I believe the Spirit has revealed to me.

I believe the key to understanding the order of Revelation in relation to when these events take place can be found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

what you have seen = Everything John wrote from Rev.1:1 to 1-19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the church and which also represents the church age

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period

Then in Rev.4:1-2 we have a voice which sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Rev.1:10 as being the Lord. The voice that sounds like a trumpet then says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," i.e. after the church age.

The voice that sounds like a trumpet I believe is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in I Thes.4:16, where the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the "trumpet of God," which is what takes place when the Lord appears to gather His church.

In future support of this, the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Within those same chapters we do not find the word "hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward we never see the word "church" used again. I believe that this is because Rev.4:1-2 is what I call a prophetic allusion representing the church being gathered by that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here," which I believe God subtly described in that manner as being a red flag to those whom He has given discernment of the hidden things in His word.

After chapter 4, only the word hagios/saints is used and the word ekklesia/church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath and that because the church is not longer on the earth at that time, because she's been called up to heaven by that voice that sounds like a trumpet. All that said, Chapter 4:1-2 would be your verse mentioning the gathering of the church/rapture prior to the first being opened.

From Revelation 4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the word hagios/saints is only used, which I believe is in reference to the great tribulation saints (GTS) introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These would be those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the seven year period. These GTS are those who are mentioned in Rev.13 who the beast is given power over and to conquer and make war against for 42 months. They are also the ones seen resurrecting in Rev.20:4-6 who will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image, nor received his mark.

These are my conclusions based on my studies and what I believe the Spirit has revealed to me over the years.

I hope that this is beneficial and a blessing to you.

 

[Hevosmies]

The gospel is there just not forth outright. For example the Binding of Satan coincides with that of Pentecost, because before that time virtually no one became saved and then peter preached and about 3 thousand became saved. In Rev. 20 we have those that reign with Christ the true believers and notice that they have a beginning but no ending signifying the true believers will be with Christ forever.

There were people saved in the O.T. including gentiles.

Are you actually claiming that satan is bound currently? Have you ever picked up a newspaper? The devil is currently deceiving the church and the world at large.

This is another danger I see in amillennialism, it limits your spiritual warfare. It creates holes in your defense. How? You see, when you are told by your pastor that the devil is currently bound, you get the idea that "Hey! There is nothing to worry about." and that is when you stop watching and keeping your guard up. And we should never let our guard down, Jesus said to WATCH! Make no mistake about it friends, the devil is deceiving the nations, and dont let anyone tell you any different.

The devil WILL be bound however, so there is light at the end of the tunnel. This occurs at the Second Advent and kicks off the millennium.
But before that happens, the Bible paints a bleak picture, and the truth is things will get worse and worse until Jesus returns. EVIL MEN and SEDUCERS shall wax WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving and being deceived.
Doesn't sound like the devil is bound there?

 

[Hevosmies]

Good day!

Regarding Revelation having a verse mentioning the rapture prior to the seals, trumpet and bowl judgments. This is what I believe the Spirit has revealed to me.

I believe the key to understanding the order of Revelation in relation to when these events take place can be found in Rev.1:19 where John is told to write:

what you have seen = Everything John wrote from Rev.1:1 to 1-19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the church and which also represents the church age

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what takes place after the church period

Then in Rev.4:1-2 we have a voice which sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Rev.1:10 as being the Lord. The voice that sounds like a trumpet then says, "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this," i.e. after the church age.

The voice that sounds like a trumpet I believe is synonymous with the "trumpet of God" found in I Thes.4:16, where the Lord descends from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and the "trumpet of God," which is what takes place when the Lord appears to gather His church.

In future support of this, the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3. Within those same chapters we do not find the word "hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from chapter 4 onward we never see the word "church" used again. I believe that this is because Rev.4:1-2 is what I call a prophetic allusion representing the church being gathered by that voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here," which I believe God subtly described in that manner as being a red flag to those whom He has given discernment of the hidden things in His word.

After chapter 4, only the word hagios/saints is used and the word ekklesia/church is never used within the narrative of God's wrath and that because the church is not longer on the earth at that time, because she's been called up to heaven by that voice that sounds like a trumpet. All that said, Chapter 4:1-2 would be your verse mentioning the gathering of the church/rapture prior to the first being opened.

From Revelation 4 onward and beginning at 5:8, the word hagios/saints is only used, which I believe is in reference to the great tribulation saints (GTS) introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These would be those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the seven year period. These GTS are those who are mentioned in Rev.13 who the beast is given power over and to conquer and make war against for 42 months. They are also the ones seen resurrecting in Rev.20:4-6 who will have kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will not have worshiped the beast, his image, nor received his mark.

These are my conclusions based on my studies and what I believe the Spirit has revealed to me over the years.

I hope that this is beneficial and a blessing to you.

Thank you for that. I will read through those and see how it matches. I must say the Revelation 4:1 could be the key here, I have never thought of it that way.

I have heard three kinds of teaching on the pre-trib rapture and would like to know which camp you are in:

The OSAS camp where you say the sinner's prayer and you are in, no doubt about it, doesn't matter how you live.
The perseverance camp where if you are truly saved, and are producing fruit, you will persevere and be raptured.
The you can lose your salvation camp, where you have to persevere and obey and if you are in sin, you will miss the rapture and/or lose salvation.

I will also say that you make a good point about ekklesia not being mentioned during the tribulation. But what about Matthew 24:29-31 mentioning a trumpet and saying its AFTER the tribulation?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thank you for that. I will read through those and see how it matches. I must say the Revelation 4:1 could be the key here, I have never thought of it that way.

I have heard three kinds of teaching on the pre-trib rapture and would like to know which camp you are in:

The OSAS camp where you say the sinner's prayer and you are in, no doubt about it, doesn't matter how you live.
The perseverance camp where if you are truly saved, and are producing fruit, you will persevere and be raptured.
The you can lose your salvation camp, where you have to persevere and obey and if you are in sin, you will miss the rapture and/or lose salvation.

I will also say that you make a good point about ekklesia not being mentioned during the tribulation. But what about Matthew 24:29-31 mentioning a trumpet and saying its AFTER the tribulation?

Hello again,

Regarding the "Loud Trumpet" of Matt.24:29-31, first of all we must be carful not to compartmentalize words as referring to the same event, such as the word trumpet. For there are many trumpets used throughout scripture which were used to signal different events, such as, when to move away from the mountain and different trumpet blast to signal that it was okay to approach the mountain, one trumpet to prepare to move out and another make camp and another trumpet to assemble the people, etc., etc. That said, the "last trumpet" spoken of in I Cor.15:52 is for the gathering of the church, where the "Loud Trumpet" is sounded for the Lord's angels to gather His elect throughout the earth who will have survived through that seven years up to when Jesus returns to end the age. I would also add that, angels do not gather the church at the resurrection, but are changed immortal and glorified and caught up to meet the air. Therefore, these are simple different trumpets to signal different events. The "Last Trumpet" is not the last trumpet of every kind of trumpet, but of that specific type or order of trumpet. I will be the last of that type. Since the "Loud Trumpet" is used to send out the angels as being a different order of trumpet, then it is just the sounding of a different order of trumpet. To be clear, the term "Last Trumpet" does not mean the last of every and any kind of trumpet. The problem is that expositors interpret Matt.24:29-31 as representing the gathering of the church. But as I pointed out, the angels will be gathering those who make it though the seven years alive and still in their mortal bodies. One of the other things that throws them off is the reference to the angels gathering the elect "from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." They think of this as referring to the church being gathered in the air.

The biggest problem with this is that, if the church was gathered in Matt.24:31, it the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture has made clear that we are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus rescues us from (Rom.5:9, I Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10)

In further support of this, the bride/church is seen at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8 where she is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14, we see an army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride/church will have just received at the wedding. My point being, If we, the bride/church are following Christ out of heaven as He returns to the earth to end the age, then how can we be gathered by the angels when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age?

Rev.17:14 also supports the church returning with the Lord from heaven as seen in the following:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The above is a preview of Rev.19:11-21 when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that when the beast and the ten kings make war against the Lord, that with the Lord will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." This is the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to end the age.

I have to go out now, but I will address the other issues that you mentioned later on.

Have a blessed day in Christ!

 

[Hevosmies]

Hello again,

Regarding the "Loud Trumpet" of Matt.24:29-31, first of all we must be carful not to compartmentalize words as referring to the same event, such as the word trumpet. For there are many trumpets used throughout scripture which were used to signal different events, such as, when to move away from the mountain and different trumpet blast to signal that it was okay to approach the mountain, one trumpet to prepare to move out and another make camp and another trumpet to assemble the people, etc., etc. That said, the "last trumpet" spoken of in I Cor.15:52 is for the gathering of the church, where the "Loud Trumpet" is sounded for the Lord's angels to gather His elect throughout the earth who will have survived through that seven years up to when Jesus returns to end the age. I would also add that, angels do not gather the church at the resurrection, but are changed immortal and glorified and caught up to meet the air. Therefore, these are simple different trumpets to signal different events. The "Last Trumpet" is not the last trumpet of every kind of trumpet, but of that specific type or order of trumpet. I will be the last of that type. Since the "Loud Trumpet" is used to send out the angels as being a different order of trumpet, then it is just the sounding of a different order of trumpet. To be clear, the term "Last Trumpet" does not mean the last of every and any kind of trumpet. The problem is that expositors interpret Matt.24:29-31 as representing the gathering of the church. But as I pointed out, the angels will be gathering those who make it though the seven years alive and still in their mortal bodies. One of the other things that throws them off is the reference to the angels gathering the elect "from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other." They think of this as referring to the church being gathered in the air.

The biggest problem with this is that, if the church was gathered in Matt.24:31, it the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture has made clear that we are not appointed to suffer and which Jesus rescues us from (Rom.5:9, I Thes.1:10, 5:9, Rev.3:10)

In further support of this, the bride/church is seen at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8 where she is receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in verse 14, we see an army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride/church will have just received at the wedding. My point being, If we, the bride/church are following Christ out of heaven as He returns to the earth to end the age, then how can we be gathered by the angels when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age?

Rev.17:14 also supports the church returning with the Lord from heaven as seen in the following:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The above is a preview of Rev.19:11-21 when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that when the beast and the ten kings make war against the Lord, that with the Lord will be His "called, chosen and faithful followers." This is the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to end the age.


Have a blessed day in Christ!

To be honest, I think you just convinced me of pre-trib rapture. I will probably still have a few verses or questions coming to my mind later on and will ask you, if thats ok? For example what about 2 Thessalonians 2 that says that antichrist must come first and the apostasy before the gathering/coming of the Lord?

Or 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 where they will get rest when Jesus returns in flaming fire, and there is no flaming fire in the rapture, right? So that would make the rest only at the second advent? But my interpretation of this would conflict Rev 19 church being in heaven before the second advent. How do we explain this?


But other than that so far the case seems clear. To be frank i've always thought that logically it would make sense for it to be pre-trib, I just didn't want to teach something solely because it "felt" good or sounded logical, as you know we must get our doctrines from the Bible. My point was that why even bother with the rapture if its way at the end of the tribulation, it makes no sense. The "U-turn" rapture as they say.

I have to go out now, but I will address the other issues that you mentioned later on.

God bless you in whatever you are doing. Thank you very much, I hope you do get back to those issues mentioned later. Thanks for your time. I truly appreciate it