Is God A Moral Monster?

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oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
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That was your god, the god of one wicked nation.
=================================================================
PS,
please help hub and I to understand yourself -
Are you saying that there are (2) Gods, The God of the OT and The God of the NT???
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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What do you mean infect?

I didn't say they were taken as sex slaves. I do not know.

Sometimes we jump to conclusions that because something potentially could have occurred then it must have. (btw I feel like there should be a comma in there somewhere, off topic but it's irritating).




My mind is currently focusing on the tribute/tithe of people to the Lord. What do you think he did with them? Probably slaves to the tabernacle, to aid Aaron or the levites in some fashion. That clearly had no sexual context.

So I don't see why it could not also be applied generally. Were there probably exceptions? Yes.

Do people receive the wages for unrighteousness privately without being "found out" by men? Yes.


I do think what cuts someone off from the assembly should be considered in some measure when gauging.





As well as the fact that we are forbidden sexual immorality in scripture...Does that stop everyone? No. Do people experience consequences? You see what I'm attempting to paint here a bit?
It's the context.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:17-18 KJV)


Anyway, it is lights out time here.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
719
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63
It's the context.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:17-18 KJV)


Anyway, it is lights out time here.
I think it could easily be pushed against by the context I also presented (granted I could quote the scripture if that's preferable)...There are other scriptures to pull in that these things did occur. Such as Hagar but it cannot be known for certain just because it had already happened elsewhere. I've seen people use that sort of thing before and while I will agree that it may be "likely" it doesn't make it a veritable certainty. Like if two people were hot and bothered and went into a closed room together I could "guess" but I cannot truly know for certain because the Lord has intervened for people that I know in these same situations. In this instance I'm about 60/40 split but it keeps going back and forth.



That's not at all certain except regarding the tribute to the Lord, that I am confident about.


A productive REM cycle to you :)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,245
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It seems like an odd point to interject into the discussion here while denying the Jews history is one of Polytheism.
Or do you think idol worship is exempt from Polytheism?
They are related concepts but not synonymous. Polytheism is idolatry, but idolatry is not necessarily polytheism.

Polytheism is the conscious belief in multiple gods; it accurately describes the religious systems of ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome. Idolatry is the practice of using physical images to represent a god or several gods, and is also the general name used for unfaithful turning to other gods instead of being faithful to the one true God. The Israelites engaged in idolatry at Mt. Sinai, but they were not expressing a belief in multiple gods.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,670
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=================================================================
PS,
please help hub and I to understand yourself -
Are you saying that there are (2) Gods, The God of the OT and The God of the NT???
That is what the Bible tells us. The violent god of the Old Testament bears no resemblance the teaching of Jesus who taught as the Father gave him. Don't take my word for it, this is what Jesus told them:

Joh 8:42-45 CEV
(42) Jesus answered: If God were your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and only from him. He sent me. I did not come on my own.
(43) Why can't you understand what I am talking about? Can't you stand to hear what I am saying?
(44) Your father is the devil, and you do exactly what he wants. He has always been a murderer and a liar. There is nothing truthful about him. He speaks on his own, and everything he says is a lie. Not only is he a liar himself, but he is also the father of all lies.
(45) Everything I have told you is true, and you still refuse to have faith in me.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,670
583
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I think it could easily be pushed against by the context I also presented (granted I could quote the scripture if that's preferable)...There are other scriptures to pull in that these things did occur. Such as Hagar but it cannot be known for certain just because it had already happened elsewhere. I've seen people use that sort of thing before and while I will agree that it may be "likely" it doesn't make it a veritable certainty. Like if two people were hot and bothered and went into a closed room together I could "guess" but I cannot truly know for certain because the Lord has intervened for people that I know in these same situations. In this instance I'm about 60/40 split but it keeps going back and forth.



That's not at all certain except regarding the tribute to the Lord, that I am confident about.


A productive REM cycle to you :)
You are a thoughtful, sincere and kind person and I like like that. Bless you.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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That is what the Bible tells us. The violent god of the Old Testament bears no resemblance the teaching of Jesus who taught as the Father gave him. Don't take my word for it, this is what Jesus told them:

Joh 8:42-45 CEV
(42) Jesus answered: If God were your Father, you would love me, because I came from God and only from him. He sent me. I did not come on my own.
(43) Why can't you understand what I am talking about? Can't you stand to hear what I am saying?
(44) Your father is the devil, and you do exactly what he wants. He has always been a murderer and a liar. There is nothing truthful about him. He speaks on his own, and everything he says is a lie. Not only is he a liar himself, but he is also the father of all lies.
(45) Everything I have told you is true, and you still refuse to have faith in me.
are you accusing the God of the OT being the devil? serious accusation.

are u saying devil created this world then? because ot God created in genesis.
 

Kojikun

Well-known member
Oct 5, 2018
2,452
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Actually the original text of the 6th commandment read as, thou shalt not murder.
Murder is the unjustified taking of a life.

The argument therefore would arrive as, God was justified in taking the lives of those described as such in His word.
Ah, yes sorry the way I explained it was awkward. Agreed :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,269
669
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It's the context.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:17-18 KJV)


Anyway, it is lights out time here.
I provided a link a few/cpl pages back, that addresses this context/[and] verse. Here it is again:

http://www.christianthinktank.com/midian.html -- [article titled-->] "Good question…What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites?"


[let's not read one verse apart from (grasping) its overall context]
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,670
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are you accusing the God of the OT being the devil? serious accusation.

are u saying devil created this world then? because ot God created in genesis.
Genesis begins by telling us "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Then we read of the I AM in conversation with Moses, and the I AM appears elsewhere in the OT. But then Moses introduces Yahweh who is an ancient Canaanite god and this is where all the violence and idol worship begins. This is after he married the Kenite woman. Her father was a Cananite priest.

You can read about Yahweh here and if you go down to the bottom of the page you will see a graven image of Yahweh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Lights out now.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
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The Israilites were terrible idolaters.
And God punished them many times also. Many died and was exiled for long periods of time. Just read the book of Daniel. The whole nation fell by a pagan nation. Then they would turn back and God would save them.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,307
917
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Genesis begins by telling us "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

Then we read of the I AM in conversation with Moses, and the I AM appears elsewhere in the OT. But then Moses introduces Yahweh who is an ancient Canaanite god and this is where all the violence and idol worship begins. This is after he married the Kenite woman. Her father was a Cananite priest.

You can read about Yahweh here and if you go down to the bottom of the page you will see a graven image of Yahweh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh

Lights out now.
this is just false doctrine. read genesis 2:7.... YHWH is there lolz.. so poor research you are an embarrassment. genesis 2:7 says LORD GOD guess what word is LORD? its YAHWEH. YHWH.

its lights out in your brains thats true. nothing going on. lights out permanently. most likely you arent even saved because you believe Yahweh is an ancient evil god. what a joke. why are you allowed to even say this on christian forum i dont know
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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So that made it right to infect the healthy girls.

The Israilites married into other nations and got infected. Moses married a Kennite woman. Mind you he told the Israilites not to do it, but that did not stop him.
Sorry but Moses married a descendant of Abraham's second wife who bore him atleast 6 more kids.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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615
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What do you mean infect?

I didn't say they were taken as sex slaves. I do not know.

Sometimes we jump to conclusions that because something potentially could have occurred then it must have. (btw I feel like there should be a comma in there somewhere, off topic but it's irritating).




My mind is currently focusing on the tribute/tithe of people to the Lord. What do you think he did with them? Probably slaves to the tabernacle, to aid Aaron or the levites in some fashion. That clearly had no sexual context.

So I don't see why it could not also be applied generally. Were there probably exceptions? Yes.

Do people receive the wages for unrighteousness privately without being "found out" by men? Yes.


I do think what cuts someone off from the assembly should be considered in some measure when gauging.





As well as the fact that we are forbidden sexual immorality in scripture...Does that stop everyone? No. Do people experience consequences? You see what I'm attempting to paint here a bit?
Some try to push that the Israelites took them as sex slaves. But the passage doesn't say that. In other parts of scripture they are usually kept and spread throughout the tribes as maids which is a less severe judgement in equivalent to usually the males was always killed.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
113
this is just false doctrine. read genesis 2:7.... YHWH is there lolz.. so poor research you are an embarrassment. genesis 2:7 says LORD GOD guess what word is LORD? its YAHWEH. YHWH.

its lights out in your brains thats true. nothing going on. lights out permanently. most likely you arent even saved because you believe Yahweh is an ancient evil god. what a joke. why are you allowed to even say this on christian forum i dont know
Free speech my friend. Just as we have the free speech to correct and call out false teachers. And I am usually very cautious with others beliefs but if they get too far away from the core Christian message then I am forced to revert to all the scriptures that speak on how to handle false teachers.
 

Locoponydirtman

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2018
1,594
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Texas
Wow this thread got the blasphemous all uproarious, and emboldened.
Did you start this thread to ferret out these rapscallions?
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,435
1,788
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God goes by different names to make different points = if one cannot 'comprehend this,
then they have no 'clue' who our Heavenly Father is or how He presents Himself to
whom He chooses when He chooses!!! case closed!

get a comprehendable agenda and please STOP trying to 'confuse' and 'bait' children who are on a
real Spiritual Journey and are truly seeking their Holy Father and His ways...

you are a real pitiful character to have the gall to present yourself in this un-holy way!
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
They are related concepts but not synonymous. Polytheism is idolatry, but idolatry is not necessarily polytheism.

Polytheism is the conscious belief in multiple gods; it accurately describes the religious systems of ancient Egypt, Greece, and Rome. Idolatry is the practice of using physical images to represent a god or several gods, and is also the general name used for unfaithful turning to other gods instead of being faithful to the one true God. The Israelite's engaged in idolatry at Mt. Sinai, but they were not expressing a belief in multiple gods.
Oh, but they were.
The golden calf the Israelite's made was based on the Egyptian goddess legend as pertained to Hathor who gave birth to a golden calf. That legend predated the Israelite's fashioning the idol. The golden calf is native to ancient Mesopotamia, the region of northern Syria, as well as Egypt south of the Sinai.
And their act was forbidden by God, see the Book of Exodus chapter 20 and verses 22 through 23.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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www.christiancourier.com
It's the context.
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:17-18 KJV)


Anyway, it is lights out time here.
For the idea of clearing infection to apply to the act against Midian one would think there would have to be mention of something that could cause infection.

The Book of Numbers 31
Vengeance on Midian
The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian. 4 You shall send a thousand from each of the tribes of Israel to the war.” 5 So there were provided, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand from each tribe, together with Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, with the vessels of the sanctuary and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand. 7 They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every male. 8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. And they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. 9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones, and they took as plunder all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. 10 All their cities in the places where they lived, and all their encampments, they burned with fire, 11 and took all the spoil and all the plunder, both of man and of beast. 12 Then they brought the captives and the plunder and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the people of Israel, at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho.

13 Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chiefs of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19 Encamp outside the camp seven days. Whoever of you has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. 20 You shall purify every garment, every article of skin, all work of goats' hair, and every article of wood.”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the men in the army who had gone to battle: “This is the statute of the law that the Lord has commanded Moses: 22 only the gold, the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 everything that can stand the fire, you shall pass through the fire, and it shall be clean. Nevertheless, it shall also be purified with the water for impurity. And whatever cannot stand the fire, you shall pass through the water. 24 You must wash your clothes on the seventh day, and you shall be clean. And afterward you may come into the camp.”

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “Take the count of the plunder that was taken, both of man and of beast, you and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation, 27 and divide the plunder into two parts between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation. 28 And levy for the Lord a tribute from the men of war who went out to battle, one out of five hundred, of the people and of the oxen and of the donkeys and of the flocks. 29 Take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest as a contribution to the Lord. 30 And from the people of Israel's half you shall take one drawn out of every fifty, of the people, of the oxen, of the donkeys, and of the flocks, of all the cattle, and give them to the Levites who keep guard over the tabernacle of the Lord.” 31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 Now the plunder remaining of the spoil that the army took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys, 35 and 32,000 persons in all, women who had not known man by lying with him. 36 And the half, the portion of those who had gone out in the army, numbered 337,500 sheep, 37 and the Lord's tribute of sheep was 675. 38 The cattle were 36,000, of which the Lord's tribute was 72. 39 The donkeys were 30,500, of which the Lord's tribute was 61. 40 The persons were 16,000, of which the Lord's tribute was 32 persons. 41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the contribution for the Lord, to Eleazar the priest, as the Lord commanded Moses.

42 From the people of Israel's half, which Moses separated from that of the men who had served in the army— 43 now the congregation's half was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 and 30,500 donkeys, 46 and 16,000 persons— 47 from the people of Israel's half Moses took one of every 50, both of persons and of beasts, and gave them to the Levites who kept guard over the tabernacle of the Lord, as the Lord commanded Moses.

48 Then the officers who were over the thousands of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, came near to Moses 49 and said to Moses, “Your servants have counted the men of war who are under our command, and there is not a man missing from us. 50 And we have brought the Lord's offering, what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and beads, to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.” 51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received from them the gold, all crafted articles. 52 And all the gold of the contribution that they presented to the Lord, from the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, was 16,750 shekels.[a] 53 (The men in the army had each taken plunder for himself.) 54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received the gold from the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tent of meeting, as a memorial for the people of Israel before the Lord.

Footnotes
  1. Numbers 31:52 A shekel was about 2/5 ounce or 11 grams

The incident at Peor
The Book of Numbers chapter 25
While Israel lived in Shittim, the people began to whore with the daughters of Moab. These invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. So Israel yoked himself to Baal of Peor. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel. And the Lord said to Moses, “Take all the chiefs of the people and hang them in the sun before the Lord, that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel.” And Moses said to the judges of Israel, “Each of you kill those of his men who have yoked themselves to Baal of Peor.”