Is God Unfair?

[Ephraim]

I don't agree with the majority of the analysis in this thread. I think the point of the book of Job is to let people know that just because you try live a good life for God, it doesn't mean that it's not going to have terrible, awful times; nobody is immune to the universe.

Job very much wrestles with God in his own way. He cries out and shouts at God but he also recognizes that God can do with him as he wishes and that if God so pleased, he would do so regardless of how 'fair' Job deemed it to be. It shows how the world doesn't bow down to our wishes and life IS unfair, but it's more beneficial to accept that fact and roll with the bad times and the good times.

It's easy to look at the story of Job and say 'God is mean', but really, how can we expect to be immune to the world just because we believe in God?

Certainly, as Job and Jacob did, we can wrestle with him. We can cry out. We can wonder why it's happening but ultimately there is no immunity to being mortal and we should appreciate and be thankful for what we have because it can be gone in any moment. But we also shouldn't base our outlook on life around what we have, because again, it can be gone in any moment.

 

[Ephraim]

And if we base our outlook and value of life on what we have, then what do we have when it's gone?

So I think to appreciate it for the moment and to know that it doesn't last forever is a very valuable moral lesson. Not to place expectations on possessions or things we have; wives and children, but instead just to appreciate it all and to treat it all with utter respect; like a beautiful flower that might wither at any moment. That is the most valuable of things; to portray a love like that.

To see things as gifts and privelages rather than rights and possessions.

 

[homwardbound]

Hi, guys!

Been wanting to share another little tidbit of a study from God's word, on the order of the Leviticus notes.

- - - - - - - - - - -

1. Job, a godly man (Job 1:8, 2:3), was sorely afflicted by God (1:21, 2:10) and lost everything (1:13-19) because of a controversy between God and Satan (1:8-12, 2:3-6).

BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE: Things happen on earth because of reasons in heaven we know nothing about.

But Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing (unfairness) - 1:22.

2. The NT reveals that man charges God with unfairness for two reasons:

• a) he misunderstands the meaning of fairness (Mt 20:8-15)

BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE: Fairness does not mean giving everyone the same, but means giving everyone his due (what he is owed, a just debt).

• b) to justify his own sin (Mt 25:24-30) - the wicked lazy servant (v.26) charges his master with unfairness (v.24) to justify his laziness as prudence (v.25).

3. The NT assumes man will question the fairness of God's sovereign choices:

• Ro 9:18-19 - How can he condemn us? Who can resist his will (sovereignty)?
• Paul's answer to man's charge of unfairness against God is
• the same as Jesus gave in the parable (Mt 20:15); i.e.,
• to assert the authority of God (Ro 9:20-21).

4. God's answer to man's charges of unfairness:

Your ways are not my ways,
My ways are higher (better) than your ways (Is 55:8-9).
I do no wrong (Dt 32:4),
All my ways are just (Da 4:37, 9:14; Ps 145:17),
and I do what is right (Da 4:37, cf v.35)

• PERSONAL APPLICATION: We must decide who is right, and whom we will believe, man or God.

5. Paul's response to God's sovereign choice

• not to grant faith to Israel, his covenant people (Ro 11:7-8), but to cut them off (Ro 11:17, 19-20, 22) and
• instead grant faith to the Gentiles, who were foreigners to the covenant (Eph 2:11-12) is
• Ro 11:33-36 -

How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways beyond finding out!
Who is wise enough that he should instruct God (Isa 40:13)?
And who has given to God that God should owe him? (Job 41:11)

6. Back to Job: While Job did not sin in what he said (Job 2:10), because he did not curse God (1:11, 2:5), he did:

• feel he had a right to an explanation, which God owed him (Job 9:16, 10:2, 13:3, 22-23)--presumption
• complain because God afflicted the righteous but not the wicked (24:12)--discrediting God's justice.

7. God responds to Job:
charges Job with

• ignorance (chps 38-39),
• casting shadows of ignorance over his wisdom (38:2), and
• discrediting his justice (40:8) in order to justify himself to his friends (6:29, 13;12-19), who were using his affliction as proof of his unrighteousness (22:4-30, 34:10-12, 31-37, 35:12-16, 36:8-17)

challenges Job (40:7-8) to match him in

• justice (40:8)
• power (40:9)
• majesty (40:10) and
• dominion (40:11-14).

BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE: We do not question God (Ro 9:20), he questions us (Job 38:3, 40:7).

• We do not judge God (Is 10:15), he judges us (Job 40:2).
• Nor do we call God to the bar of our reason (Ro 9:20; Is 45:11-12)
  to judge him based on human understanding and human ways (Job 1:22)
• The Bible calls that "turning things upside down as if the potter were thought to be like the clay." (Is 29:16, NIV)

8. Job is

• humbled (42:3), repents (42:6) and embraces the sovereign actions of God (40:2, 5), although
• he is never given an explanation for his affliction (see #1, Biblical Principle).
• Job no longer needed an explanation (42:3), for he had experienced the glory of God (42:5, cf 19:26-27), which far surpasses anything found on earth (Php 3:8-10).

9. Outcome of Job's trial:

• deeper heart knowledge and realized fellowship with God (42:3, 5, 8, cf 19:26-27; Ps 42:1-2, 63:1, 84:1-2).
• double possessions (42:10)--foreshadowing of spirituall possessions (Heb 10:34; 1Pe 1:4-5),
• long life (42:16)--foreshadowing eternal life (Jas 1:12).

10. Parallels between Job and Christ:

• the Righteous One (Ac 7:52, 3:14),
• sorely afflicted by God (Is 53:3-5)
• because of a controversy with Satan (Ge 3:15; Jn 12:31; Mt 12:29; Lk 10:18-19),
• who was emptied and humbled (Php 2:5-8)
• for his greater glory (Heb 12:2; Php 2:9-11; 2Co 4:17), and
• exalted to intercede for his friends (Ac 2:33; Heb 7:25, cf Job 45:7-10).

11. God's answer to man's objections regarding his absolute sovereignty:

I am all wise and all just (Is 40:13-14; Ps 89:14),
I do what is best and what is right (Dt 32:4; Ps 119:68; Da 4:37).
TRUST ME, and lean not on your own understanding.

PERSONAL APPLICATION: The sovereignty of God requires our trust, not our understanding. (Ro 11:33)

Romans 8:18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 5:3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

And Job said: Even though he went through this horrible ordeal, can we also rejoice in our afflictions and curse God?

Job 19:25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

[homwardbound]

I don't agree with the majority of the analysis in this thread. I think the point of the book of Job is to let people know that just because you try live a good life for God, it doesn't mean that it's not going to have terrible, awful times; nobody is immune to the universe.

Job very much wrestles with God in his own way. He cries out and shouts at God but he also recognizes that God can do with him as he wishes and that if God so pleased, he would do so regardless of how 'fair' Job deemed it to be. It shows how the world doesn't bow down to our wishes and life IS unfair, but it's more beneficial to accept that fact and roll with the bad times and the good times.

It's easy to look at the story of Job and say 'God is mean', but really, how can we expect to be immune to the world just because we believe in God?

Certainly, as Job and Jacob did, we can wrestle with him. We can cry out. We can wonder why it's happening but ultimately there is no immunity to being mortal and we should appreciate and be thankful for what we have because it can be gone in any moment. But we also shouldn't base our outlook on life around what we have, because again, it can be gone in any moment.

Thanks, and thereofre let's see truth as truth is
[h=3]John 16:33[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]33 [/SUP]These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I don't agree with the majority of the analysis in this thread. I think the point of the book of Job is to let people know that just because you try live a good life for God, it doesn't mean that it's not going to have terrible, awful times; nobody is immune to the universe.

Job very much wrestles with God in his own way. He cries out and shouts at God but he also recognizes that God can do with him as he wishes and that if God so pleased, he would do so regardless of how 'fair' Job deemed it to be. It shows how the world doesn't bow down to our wishes and life IS unfair, but it's more beneficial to accept that fact and roll with the bad times and the good times.

It's easy to look at the story of Job and say 'God is mean', but really, how can we expect to be immune to the world just because we believe in God?

Certainly, as Job and Jacob did, we can wrestle with him. We can cry out. We can wonder why it's happening but ultimately there is no immunity to being mortal and we should appreciate and be thankful for what we have because it can be gone in any moment. But we also shouldn't base our outlook on life around what we have, because again, it can be gone in any moment.

Job was our model for resisting the devil and not losing faith amidst the trials the devil lays upon us.

The devil had challenged man's loyalty to God as though man only would obey God if God would put them into a protective bubble and satisfy all of their needs.

Why did the devil make that challenge? Because if the protective bubble and pampering were the real reason man obeyed God, then Job would prove unfaithful and prove God was wrong that God should expect his creatures to obey him. Thus the devil would be justified for his having disobeyed God by violation of Gods love.

Now, you know that did not happen with Job even for a second. It could not have because the one second it would happen would be adequate to prove the devil right and God wrong.

All we really hear is Job trying to understand what was happening to him and why, but never doubting God.

 

[Ephraim]

Job was our model for resisting the devil and not losing faith amidst the trials the devil lays upon us.

The devil had challenged man's loyalty to God as though man only would obey God if God would put them into a protective buble and satisfy all of their needs.

Why did the devil make that challenge? Because if the protective bubble and pampering were the real reason man obeyed god, then Job would prove unfaithful and prove God was wrong that God should expect his creatures to obey him. Thus the devil would be justified for his having disobeyed God by violation of Gods love.

Now, you know that did not happen with Job even for a second. It could not have because the one second it would happen would be adequate to prove the devil right and God wrong.

How does any of that help my day-to-day life in walking with God? If that's the only point to the story then it only serves to indoctrinate me into a vision of a scenario, which in all honesty, plays no more of a 'real' role in my everyday life than to fuel a superstition or a feeling of obligation without any reason. It has no application nor relating ability for me. It doesn't give me any real instruction, hence why I disagree with that analysis.

The parabolic references and the stories of biblical figures, for me, always have a real, moral, applicable message to my life.

The why and how of the obeying of God in any Job-like situation is what I looked for. What does it all mean in respect to human emotion, to life, to situations, to possessions, to the underpinning message of the rest of the bible? To love and its application?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just illustrating how I got to my conclusion and why.

 

[RedTent]

I think if we look at life with only secular, worldly eyes there is no doubt, God is unfair. God warns us about this when He taught us to pray, even. We are to ask for our daily needs, and though those needs are spiritual God means it to include our fleshly needs, too, but we are also to ask for His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Giving us our fleshly needs must be in line with this God principle. God even used His being unfair to Job to achieve His work on earth, to show us that He is supreme and so are His ways.

Job was many thousands of years ago, yet when He pointed out how God runs the heavens, even, I am spiritually uplifted by that understanding. I am one of many millions of people.

God uses some pretty bad (in fleshly eyes) things to achieve His kingdom on earth. Read a history of God's chosen people if you don't believe it, the ones God chose to teach us His principles. Look what happened to them when they didn't accept the Savior He sent them. We aren't to judge, just keep our hearts and minds on how to live within the kingdom.

 

[Ephraim]

I think if we look at life with only secular, worldly eyes there is no doubt, God is unfair. God warns us about this when He taught us to pray, even. We are to ask for our daily needs, and though those needs are spiritual God means it to include our fleshly needs, too, but we are also to ask for His kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. Giving us our fleshly needs must be in line with this God principle. God even used His being unfair to Job to achieve His work on earth, to show us that He is supreme and so are His ways.

Job was many thousands of years ago, yet when He pointed out how God runs the heavens, even, I am spiritually uplifted by that understanding. I am one of many millions of people.

God uses some pretty bad (in fleshly eyes) things to achieve His kingdom on earth. Read a history of God's chosen people if you don't believe it, the ones God chose to teach us His principles. Look what happened to them when they didn't accept the Savior He sent them. We aren't to judge, just keep our hearts and minds on how to live within the kingdom.

Is it secular to want to take solace, comfort, instruction and a path to walk toward God from each and every story of the bible? Isn't that the point of why it was written down for people to read?

 

[kardiaoangelous]

How does any of that help my day-to-day life in walking with God? If that's the only point to the story then it only serves to indoctrinate me into a vision of a scenario, which in all honesty, plays no more of a 'real' role in my everyday life than to fuel a superstition or a feeling of obligation without any reason. It has no application nor relating ability for me. It doesn't give me any real instruction, hence why I disagree with that analysis.

The parabolic references and the stories of biblical figures, for me, always have a real, moral, applicable message to my life.

The why and how of the obeying of God in any Job-like situation is what I looked for. What does it all mean in respect to human emotion, to life, to situations, to possessions, to the underpinning message of the rest of the bible? To love and its application?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just illustrating how I got to my conclusion and why.

That is not so.

It lends to helping us understand how it is that we, once we have perfected holiness in us in this life and walk unerringly in the footsteps of Christ are judging Satan and his wicked angels. It thus brightens the light to us in the scriptures which speak of that judging of angels and treading of serpents under our feet. We are better able to understand this as follows:

Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Ephraim]

That is not so.

It lends to helping us understand how it is that we, once we have perfected holiness in us in this life and walk unerringly in the footsteps of Christ are judging Satan and his wicked angels. It thus brightens the light to us in the scriptures which speak of that judging of angels and treading of serpents under our feet. We are better able to understand this as follows:

Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

1 Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Sorry, that's lost on me.

How can anybody perfect anything (practically) in this life when we're 'accursed in disobedience' until we die? So again, how does it practically apply to my life, to right now? What can I take from it that will help me actually walk towards God if I see it as you see it rather than how I previously posted?

How is judging (I assume unto condemnation) pleasurable? I find pleasure in discerning (the kind of subtle, critical, diagnostic, insightful observance of the world), but not in any kind of harsh judging.

So obviously we have very different views on Job. Which is fine.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Sorry, that's lost on me.

How can anybody perfect anything (practically) in this life when we're 'accursed in disobedience' until we die? So again, how does it practically apply to my life, to right now? What can I take from it that will help me actually walk towards God if I see it as you see it rather than how I previously posted?

How is judging (I assume unto condemnation) pleasurable? I find pleasure in discerning (the kind of subtle, critical, diagnostic, insightful observance of the world), but not in any kind of harsh judging.

So obviously we have very different views on Job. Which is fine.

Yes, I understand why you think that but you only think that because of the corruption of the truth of God's word by fasle doctrines that have been allowed to be born among the church due to Satan's trickery.

You can perfect your spirit in this life and it is you that must work with God doing the works that he tells you to do, his works of his righteousness and that not of your own.

 

[Elin]

To understand verse ROMANS 11:25 properly you have to take all Paul said into account:

(1) It had been established in chapter 10 that Paul was upset that the Gentiles lacked zeal to preach to his fleshly relatives, asking them "How will they here without someone to preach?"

(2) Verse 1 shows the Gentiles being affected by the Jews persecution of them had caused them to act as though all the remaining Jews yet outside of Christ must have been completely cast off.

(3) Verses 2-5 argues that it is no different than in Elias day, that there is yet a remnant of them still out there. Only a remnant yet out there.

(4) Verses 6-11 shows that God did not take the full remnant all at once but was bringing that remnant in gradually so that the Gentiles could be benefited by being used to help bring the remainder of that remnant in.

(5) Verse 14 shows Paul was not speaking of all Jews yet out there being save, but only some, as in the remaining part of the remnant of them, just as in the days of Elias. (Compare Romans 10:1 showing Paul only hoped they might be saved.)

(6) Verse 15 Paul argues that the fulness of that remaining remnant yet out there is valuable to God, even as all human life from the dead even of the gentiles is.

(7) Verse 16 Paul argues that if the firstfruits of that remnant be holy to God then the entire lump of that remnant yet out there must also be holy to God. (That gets missed to apply to all as in the entire Israel but that idea jumps from Paul's theme arguing for the remnant yet out there. We must stick with Paul's theme and his theme is that just as in Elias day there is yet part of a remnant still out there, even as Elias was the first part of that remnant back in his day and more of a remnant remained out there.)

(8) Verses 17-24 merely warns the Gentiles to not be so high minded because God could cut them back off that tree, as in permanently and revert back to only saving a remnant of those Jews rather than a remnant of both Jews and Gentiles.

(9) Verse 25, which actually says when properly translated and understood, Stop making this out as something mysterious in your ignorance. It is no mystery. That remaining part of that remnant which is yet out there, will be out there as it is being brought in along with the fulness of the Gentiles being brought in.

(10) Verse 26-31 (as compared to what Paul said at Romans 9: 6-15) is only telling us that remnant of all who are really Israel by the election of God (not of flesh) will be saved just as it was prophesied that remnant would be. It has never been prophesied that all would be saved which is why Paul clearly said he hoped to save some of them in verse 14. It is false doctrine that claims God ever said all Israel as in all Israel by flesh would be saved. And it the spirit of the Synagogue of Satan per Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 which has infiltrated that idea into the church.

(11) Verse 32 says, Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded them [as in the remaining part of that remnant] all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all [of the remnant of both Jews and gentiles yet out there.].

Them is a word added by the translator in verse 32 and actually says, Romans 11:32 "For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Which is the same exact thing Paul spoke of at Galatians 3:22. Read the entire Galatians chapter 3 and you will see all he meant at Romans 11:32.

I have been staying strictly to the scriptures with them all the way through our discussion. crossnote has injected opinion all over the place and has not stayed by scripture. He blasphemes Abraham and Paul in his opinions which go way outside of scripture, touting that Abraham had no faith before God approached him the way that the wicked generation of Jews back then demanded a sign before they could have faith. He is saying that is what Abraham did and blaspheming Abraham.

And he claims that Paul had not faith in God before his conversion on the road to Damascus. That is a blasphemy by missed understanding. You guys have mistaken faith in Christ with faith in the Father. It was on the basis of true faith in the Father that Abel was remembered and that Noah and his family was saved. Abraham's faith was in the Father. The Promises were given upon faith in the Father not upon faith in the seed that is Jesus and everyone has missed that, transferring that faith all over to Jesus who was back when the promises were made only the seed, the thing promised of God the Father and faith was in the word of the Father that God cannot lie.

And Paul had that. He lacked yet fully understanding the thing promised but his faith in God was strong.

Please grasp this and help me break this reign of the synagogue of Satan in the church. We need to educate ourselves so we can bring them to their knees.

In Ro 10, Paul is addressing the cause of God's rejection of Israel because they sought to establish their own righteousness based on the law, and did not submit to God's righteousness based on faith (v.3).

He addresses the argument that they had not had an opportunity to hear the gospel because they had never been told (vv.14-15),
and replies that they had been told by gospel preachers who went everywhere (v.18) and by the prophets (vv. 19-20),
but they just would not hear, they did not understand because they refused to (v.21).

In Ro 11, he continues the topic of God's rejection of Israel because of unbelief, by showing that:
God did not reject all of Israel, for there remained a believing remnant chosen by grace, not by works (v.5-6),
that the righteousness Israel sought so earnestly to obtain, it did not, but the elect remnant did (v.7), and
the others were hardened (vv. 8-10).

He asks if their hardening were irrecoverable, and replies that
it is not (v.11),
that the unbelief and hardening of the majority of Israel leads to the salvation of the Gentiles (vv. 12-15),
that because the firstfruits or roots (patriarchs) were holy (set apart as God's people), the whole batch or branches (Jewish people) were holy (set apart as God's people), and
God would be faithful to his promise (to bless their obedience and to curse their disobedience--3:3-4, which he has, and is).

I think Ro 11:5 shows that, even though God has rejected the majority of Israel, his promises to Israel of deliverance by a Savior are still fulfilled, but in a remnant.
God has put Jews and Gentiles on the same footing in the NT (Gal 3:28-29).
I think there is warrant in 11:26, "And thus, all Israel will be saved," for God's plan of salvation for Israel being the same as his plan of salvation for the Gentiles; i.e., salvation of a remnant only.

For all Israel is not true Israel (Ro 2:28-29, 9:6).

 

[Ephraim]

Yes, I understand why you think that but you only think that because of the corruption of the truth of God's word by fasle doctrines that have been allowed to be born among the church due to Satan's trickery.

You can perfect your spirit in this life and it is you that must work with God doing the works that he tells you to do, his works of his righteousness and that not of your own.

I think not.

I asked you five minutes ago what instruction comes from Job and how to apply it to everyday life and you gave me an answer that was vague and had no real instruction contained in it. Hence why I didn't really see why it is applicable (for me). And now that I've tried to end a disagreement respectfully and cited my reasons for how I see things, you're telling me my view is corrupted and I need to walk in the path, doing the works of God, like somehow my gleaning of instruction from the bible, and then applying that instruction to my life in a practical fashion, is not 'doing of the works of God'. That's convoluted and contradictory.

Is 'doing the works of God', by your definition, solely understanding the bible as you personally see it?

 

[Elin]

How does any of that help my day-to-day life in walking with God? If that's the only point to the story then it only serves to indoctrinate me into a vision of a scenario, which in all honesty, plays no more of a 'real' role in my everyday life than to fuel a superstition or a feeling of obligation without any reason. It has no application nor relating ability for me. It doesn't give me any real instruction, hence why I disagree with that analysis.

The parabolic references and the stories of biblical figures, for me, always have a real, moral, applicable message to my life.

The why and how of the obeying of God[/b] in any Job-like situation is what I looked for. What does it all mean in respect to human emotion, to life, to situations, to possessions, to the underpinning message of the rest of the bible? To love and its application?

I'm not saying you're wrong, just illustrating how I got to my conclusion and why.

Such a man-centered approach to God's revelation will limit one's understanding and knowledge of God himself.

 

[Elin]

Is it secular to want to take solace, comfort, instruction and a path to walk toward God from each and every story of the bible? Isn't that the point of why it was written down for people to read?

That is only one of the points, which you view to the exclusion of all others.

 

[RedTent]

Is it secular to want to take solace, comfort, instruction and a path to walk toward God from each and every story of the bible? Isn't that the point of why it was written down for people to read?

It does give solace, comfort, instruction! But I think the purpose is to show us how to live eternally with God, and live here within God principles. That leads to solace, etc. That is why God sent the Savior to live with us as a man and die for us.

 

[Ephraim]

Such a man-centered approach to God's revelation will limit one's understanding and knowledge of God himself.

Then tell me, where do we live? And who do we love in order to love God who we cannot see? Don't you think that our treatment of others, in a way that pleases God, is the single biggest focus of the bible?

If there was only me on this earth, then most of the bible would mean nothing and I could argue that there would be no need for the majority of the ten commandments (the last 6).

And even many of the reasonings behind the first four would be null (for instance, the promotion of worshiping false images of God, the use of the Sabbath to help others and abstain from selfish work). Only the first two would have full relevance.

If walking the God-path is only one of the points of the bible, and not the only point, then what are the others?

 

[Ephraim]

It does give solace, comfort, instruction! But I think the purpose is to show us how to live eternally with God, and live here within God principles. That leads to solace, etc. That is why God sent the Savior to live with us as a man and die for us.

Hence why I included 'a path to walk'.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I think not.

I asked you five minutes ago what instruction comes from Job and how to apply it to everyday life and you gave me an answer that was vague and had no real instruction contained in it. Hence why I didn't really see why it is applicable (for me). And now that I've tried to end a disagreement respectfully and cited my reasons for how I see things, you're telling me my view is corrupted and I need to walk in the path, doing the works of God, like somehow my gleaning of instruction from the bible, and then applying that instruction to my life in a practical fashion, is not 'doing of the works of God'. That's convoluted and contradictory.

Is 'doing the works of God', by your definition, solely understanding the bible as you personally see it?

I know you think not and that you are making the grace of God out to be a guise to cover unholiness to continue by thinking not.

I know you believe Christ did it all for you on the cross, another lie of the devil. What Christ did for you on the cross is to give you a clean conscience with to approach God to be actually cleaned spirit to spirit by God.

And that is why John says he who sins is of the devil. God's spirit is powerful and if you were really linked your spirit to his spirit you would not sin. Sin therefore proves your claim a lie as John said.

there are so many little subtle lies of satan that you have bought into that those lies have blinded your ability to really see.

You think that Christ does it all for you and you spurn the fact that you must be holy as he is holy even as Peter said, or you will not be permitted into his kingdom.

If it is your desire to stay blind I nor Christ himself can help you.

 

[Ephraim]

Of course the world is unfair. Of course God is unfair, according to a lot of standards about what fairness is, but then fairness is a subjective term. Is it fair for me to kill a man's wife and take his house? No. But it's fair for God because it's His to begin with.

What I'm saying is the world isn't fair, and I shouldn't expect it to be. Things WILL be taken from me. Death happens. Rought times happen. And what I get from Job is that it pays to respect that and understand that. It pays to know that things are privileges and gifts not rights and possessions. It pays to respect that life has a way of flipping everything on its head and so cherish and value the moment because it can be gone in the blink of an eye.

That means that people in my life are respected and valued and loved by me because I know how temporary things on this Earth are. And God is happy with that view, and I know that because God wants me to respect and love the people around me.