Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?

[Eccl12and13]

Yeah, but your're forgetting something

Through Jesus and for his namesake we received grace and apostleship to call people from among the Gentiles(that's me) to the obediance that comes from faith
Rom 1:5

How come you never mention this? All you seem to want to talk about is looking to the literal law, striving to obey it and that's our righteousness. Why do you never mention obediance is by faith? I find that strange

I have...but I have no problem speaking about it again. Let's read what is needed for faith. And then once faith has been obtained what must be done afterward.

There is a path to faith. It does not come on its own. God's word tells us the steps that are needed to have faith. Let's read God's word....


Rom.10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But how do we get to the point that we even call upon Jesus name? God's word tells us...let's read;

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Paul asks the question....how can you call on someone you do not believe in. Does something else have to happen even before this? Of course.....let's read more....

[14].....and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

Paul then asks how can you believe in someone if you have never heard of the person. So up to this point....faith has yet to be obtained. Let's read more.....

[14].....and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So before you have faith in Jesus you have to go through a process. And even now....after asking 3 questions in the process faith has not be obtained. Is there more that must be done BEFORE faith is obtained? Let's read.....

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

So how is faith obtained? Is it something that God gives us or is it a process we go through and is up to us whether we obtain it? Let's read....

[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So now we have the completed process for obtaining faith:

First we must hear about the Lord from a preacher. But the preacher MUST be sent by God.
After we hear about and have been told about Jesus we must then decide if we believe what we have been told. And once we believe THEN we can call upon Jesus name.

If one of those steps are missing can a person have faith in Jesus Christ?

So what's next. What do we do when we have been told and then believe in what we have been told? Do we just keep having that faith? Is our process complete? Is this the ONLY thing we need to do to be able to get into God's kingdom?

Does God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing we need to do is have faith?
Dose God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing that will determine whether or not we are allowed into God's kingdom is faith?

Let's read if there is something else that is required of us once we have obtained faith.....

Rom.10
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

Paul now tells us even AFTER receiving faith there are yet those that have not OBEYED those words which they were told. Let's confirm this....

Jam.1
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

So again we find that although faith has been obtained the Christian must not just have faith in the words that was preached to them...buy they must also act upon those words that they were taught. And what are some of the actions that must be taken to be blessed? Let's read some more of James 1;

[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

James tells us if we endure temptation we will be blessed and will receive a crown of life.

Already we know we need to not only have faith....but we also NEED to endure temptation to receive eternal life. Let's read more about this temptation....

[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

WOW! When men are swayed by lust and give in to temptation it brings on sin. And what is sin? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." And what happens when sin is committed? ".... bringeth forth death."

James then tells us the following.....

[21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

So having faith in the engrafted word of God is able to save man. How? If we OBEY those words we now have faith in.


Again I ask......

Does God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing we need to do is have faith for entrance into His kingdom?
Dose God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing that will determine whether or not we are allowed into God's kingdom is faith?

Clearly no! For as we just read above,

" Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Along with having faith we must also endure temptation.

Having faith in God's word, thus being able to have faith in Jesus Christ, is just the beginning of our process to salvation.



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[newcovenantchristian]

I have...but I have no problem speaking about it again. Let's read what is needed for faith. And then once faith has been obtained what must be done afterward.

There is a path to faith. It does not come on its own. God's word tells us the steps that are needed to have faith. Let's read God's word....


Rom.10
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

But how do we get to the point that we even call upon Jesus name? God's word tells us...let's read;

[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?

Paul asks the question....how can you call on someone you do not believe in. Does something else have to happen even before this? Of course.....let's read more....

[14].....and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?

Paul then asks how can you believe in someone if you have never heard of the person. So up to this point....faith has yet to be obtained. Let's read more.....

[14].....and how shall they hear without a preacher?

So before you have faith in Jesus you have to go through a process. And even now....after asking 3 questions in the process faith has not be obtained. Is there more that must be done BEFORE faith is obtained? Let's read.....

[15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

So how is faith obtained? Is it something that God gives us or is it a process we go through and is up to us whether we obtain it? Let's read....

[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So now we have the completed process for obtaining faith:

First we must hear about the Lord from a preacher. But the preacher MUST be sent by God.
After we hear about and have been told about Jesus we must then decide if we believe what we have been told. And once we believe THEN we can call upon Jesus name.

If one of those steps are missing can a person have faith in Jesus Christ?

So what's next. What do we do when we have been told and then believe in what we have been told? Do we just keep having that faith? Is our process complete? Is this the ONLY thing we need to do to be able to get into God's kingdom?

Does God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing we need to do is have faith?
Dose God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing that will determine whether or not we are allowed into God's kingdom is faith?

Let's read if there is something else that is required of us once we have obtained faith.....

Rom.10
[16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel.

Paul now tells us even AFTER receiving faith there are yet those that have not OBEYED those words which they were told. Let's confirm this....

Jam.1
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

So again we find that although faith has been obtained the Christian must not just have faith in the words that was preached to them...buy they must also act upon those words that they were taught. And what are some of the actions that must be taken to be blessed? Let's read some more of James 1;

[12] Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

James tells us if we endure temptation we will be blessed and will receive a crown of life.

Already we know we need to not only have faith....but we also NEED to endure temptation to receive eternal life. Let's read more about this temptation....

[14] But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
[15] Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

WOW! When men are swayed by lust and give in to temptation it brings on sin. And what is sin? "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." And what happens when sin is committed? ".... bringeth forth death."

James then tells us the following.....

[21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

So having faith in the engrafted word of God is able to save man. How? If we OBEY those words we now have faith in.


Again I ask......

Does God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing we need to do is have faith for entrance into His kingdom?
Dose God's word EVER say that the ONLY thing that will determine whether or not we are allowed into God's kingdom is faith?

Clearly no! For as we just read above,

" Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him."

Along with having faith we must also endure temptation.

Having faith in God's word, thus being able to have faith in Jesus Christ, is just the beginning of our process to salvation.



.

Lets concise it a bit
For it is by grace that you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourselvs, it is the gift of God
Eph2:8

Now, you mentioned preachers being sent out to give the message, we need to hope they give the true message of grace, for if they don't many may give up if they are sincere

Now, the Christian is obediant through faith(sorry, but that means we can't take the credit) in Christ, for as long as the Christian is looking to Jesus in faith they cannot at the same time be looking to fulfill the desires of the flesh. The power, as you know in the life of a Christian is the Holy Spirit and it is the Spirit who sanctifies the Christian. And so, as with the first Christians, who saw such tremendous power from God we need to get back to basics and live by simple faith in Christ, and total reliance on the Holy Spirit

Can I ask? Why do you seldom mention faith in Christ and reliance on the Holy Spirit, this is the key to everything, yet you simply seem preoccupied with fixating on law/commandments

Can I ask you, why do you think Jesus died on the cross?

 

[Eccl12and13]

Readers....let's now read what change is needed so that we may be found righteous in the eyes of God....

Col.3
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Noticed Paul said that these are some of the sins they USED to walk in. He then continues....

[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
[11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Paul preached that ALL should stop sinning!

1 John 2
[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
[5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
[6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

John preached that ALL should stop sinning!

What is the change that is NEEDED in a Christians life if they want to follow the true and living God? What is needed for eternal life?

Along with faith in His words? We need to obey the true and living God and start keeping His commandments and laws.


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[Eccl12and13]

Now, the Christian is obediant through faith......

And what is it that the Christian is obeying?


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[Eccl12and13]

Now, the Christian is obediant through faith(sorry, but that means we can't take the credit)

And is this faith something that a Christian have no choice in receiving? Is it forced upon them...or...do they have faith and believe once they here about Jesus and decide this is something they want to do?

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[Eccl12and13]

Can I ask you, why do you think Jesus died on the cross?

You have asked this before and I have answered...just as I have done with other questions. I have done what was asked of me..sometimes TWICE!



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[newcovenantchristian]

And is this faith something that a Christian have no choice in receiving? Is it forced upon them...or...do they have faith and believe once they here about Jesus and decide this is something they want to do?

.

Well you can't be a Christian without faith
And no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them to him , as you know


Can I ask you, because you've never answered this question, does God get all the glory in your life as a Christian for your growth/obediance? Or is some of the credit yours?

 

[RickShafer]

{Is keeping the commandments and Laws of God needed for Eternal Life?} - This was your question.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, there is none righteous, no not one."

"If a man says he has no sin, he deceiveth himself."

It is the height of spiritual pride and ignorance to think you have no sin;
to think you can keep God's laws perfectly.

Oh, but it's fun to try! - (Why don't you get circumcised while your at it?)
Oh, you already are? No wonder you think it's such a good idea for others.

Keep building that stairway to heaven.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

I think it is only correct to state that the author of this thread is teaching/preaching a Christianity of self righteousness according to law keeping
Now if he wants to do it, that's his choice, but that isn't the grace of scripture, and if he could be good enough according to law keeping Christ need not have died on the cross

It is his belief that Jesus died for the sins he committed before he became a Christian only, burnt offerings have been removed from the law, so obediance to the rest of the law is his righteousness. So I have to conclude that he feels God sent his son to live among sinners, suffer at the hands of the religious, and to die a painful agonising death on the cross simply to remove the law of burnt offerings, nothing more

Only in the OT God would forgive a person their sin, as he will now if a person comes to him through his son, and then they were to obey the law, as the author of this thread believes must happen for righteousness to be gained.
For myself I am grateful that God throuygh the Spirit revealed to me grace, though I know I did nothig to deserve it, and the truth of grace is in the following

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident that we ourselves ae sinners, does his mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutekly not, if I rebuild what I destroyed I prove that I am a lawbreaker
For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live but Christ lives in me
The life I live in th body I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me
I DO NOT SET ASIDE THE GRACE OF gOD, FOR IF RIGHTEOUSNESS COULD BE GAINED THROUGH THE LAW CHRIST DIED FOR NOHING
Gal2:17-21

 

[RickShafer]

Your getting salvation and sanctification completely mixed up.
The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin........ALL sin; including that of
relying on our own righteousness.
All the moral commandments are good and just, and we should pursue
them with the longsuffering and perseverance of "one who runs the race to win";
but to think our salvation resides in perfect attainment of them is both folly and dangerous.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

Your getting salvation and sanctification completely mixed up.
The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin........ALL sin; including that of
relying on our own righteousness.
All the moral commandments are good and just, and we should pursue
them with the longsuffering and perseverance of "one who runs the race to win";
but to think our salvation resides in perfect attainment of them is both folly and dangerous.

We are not talking of literal law here are we, written on tablets of stone, for the law is already written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit under the new covenant

 

[carolineh]

never does God tell us to abandon the moral laws of God...as in the ten commandments..we are to perfectly obey them and we fail to do that so we need to put our trust that God has given us a Savior who did perfectly obey the ten commandments for us..does not mean we can now disobey them and sin as much as we like...sin is the transgression of God's moral law and we are to repent when we sin...that is turn to God in love through Jesus and turn from our sins..not continue in them and not assume that by turning to God in love through Jesus and turning from our sins we have suddenly made ourselves righteous, it is God who has made us righteous by sending Jesus to be punished and die for our sins and then giving us the faith to put our trust in Him and working in us to empower us to repent

 

[newcovenantchristian]

never does God tell us to abandon the moral laws of God...as in the ten commandments..we are to perfectly obey them and we fail to do that so we need to put our trust that God has given us a Savior who did perfectly obey the ten commandments for us..does not mean we can now disobey them and sin as much as we like...sin is the transgression of God's moral law and we are to repent when we sin...that is turn to God in love through Jesus and turn from our sins..not continue in them and not assume that by turning to God in love through Jesus and turning from our sins we have suddenly made ourselves righteous, it is God who has made us righteous by sending Jesus to be punished and die for our sins and then giving us the faith to put our trust in Him and working in us to empower us to repent

Who is talking of doing anything we want. I am saying the law is written on our hearts and minds by the Spirit(Heb 10:16&17) under the new covennant so you do not have to look to the words of literal law, for the law is within you, it is in your DNA if you like
To prove this is according to scripture

You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our minstry, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts
2Cor 3:3

That simply confirms what is witten in hebrews, and is the new covenant
#
This is the covenant I will vmake with them after that time declares the Lord
I will put my laws in their hearts and write them on their minds
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb 10:16&17

You want to obey the Ten Commandments, but not because they are written on tablets of stone, but because God has put in your heart a desire to obey them, its part of you now as a person do you see what I am saying?, that is the new covenant. Literal law is not required, for the law is within you

 

[Eccl12and13]

Can I ask you, because you've never answered this question, does God get all the glory in your life as a Christian for your growth/obediance? Or is some of the credit yours?

You know something....you didn't even give me the respect of going back to check whether or not I did or din't answer your question. As I have told you before...I have answered ALL of your questions....sometimes I have answered them TWICE. This leads me to believe you are either not reading my answers or you do not care.

Well....just as before, the answer to your above question can be found just a few pages back.

I am only bringing this to the attention of the readers that may be following this post so that they will see how patient I have been in answering your questions...and also let them understand why from this point out I will probably not answer any more of your questions.

Your question can be found on; Page 10, Post# 187.

But seeing as you did not even give me the courtesy of doing just a little word before making a claim, I am going to re-post it below...because I doubt you will go back to check.

Can I ask? In your heart, do you take any credit for your Christianity/continued Christianity? Or do you get down on your knees and praise God for the change he brings to your life?
Is the glory all his? Or does some of the credit go to you?

And my answer to your question can be found on; Page 10, Post# 189.

Here is my answer;

ALL of the glory goes to Him. I thank God for giving me the knowledge, wisdom and understanding to know that keeping His laws is something that is needed for eternal life.

Had He not opened my eyes I would have still been doing those things that are not pleasing to Him. I received this knowledge the same way Paul did....

By reading God's laws and commandments. And just as Paul, once I knew what sin truly was...I taught others that to sin is to disobey God.

Something I attempt to do on the forums I participate on.

I fully understand your stance on the topic....as do the readers: You do not believe that keeping the Commandments and Laws of God are needed for Eternal life!


Thank you for your participation!

.

 

[RickShafer]

Newcovenant,
I was addressing the Ecc.12&13, not you.
I am in agreement with both you and the N.T.

 

[newcovenantchristian]

You know something....you didn't even give me the respect of going back to check whether or not I did or din't answer your question. As I have told you before...I have answered ALL of your questions....sometimes I have answered them TWICE. This leads me to believe you are either not reading my answers or you do not care.

Well....just as before, the answer to your above question can be found just a few pages back.

I am only bringing this to the attention of the readers that may be following this post so that they will see how patient I have been in answering your questions...and also let them understand why from this point out I will probably not answer any more of your questions.

Your question can be found on; Page 10, Post# 187.

But seeing as you did not even give me the courtesy of doing just a little word before making a claim, I am going to re-post it below...because I doubt you will go back to check.



And my answer to your question can be found on; Page 10, Post# 189.

Here is my answer;




I fully understand your stance on the topic....as do the readers: You do not believe that keeping the Commandments and Laws of God are needed for Eternal life!


Thank you for your participation!

.

One more thing before I go. According to scripture I now obey the law God wants us to keep better than you, how do I know that?

For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace
Rom 6:14

By your own admission you are still under law, only burnt offerings were removed, and your righteousness is keeping the rest of the law
Because my righteousness rests soley in faith in Christ, scripturally you cannot observe the law that matters as well as I, though it is not me doing it but Christ in me by the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit, I ain't perfect but because I follow the truth and you don't I sin less than you
have a good day

 

[Eccl12and13]

Let's read a quote....

"....under the new covennant so you do not have to look to the words of literal law, for the law is within you, it is in your DNA if you like..."

Now let's read where Paul went to learn of the law. Let's find if it was something that was just apart of his "DNA"! Let's read what thus saith the scriptures....

Rom.7
[7] What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Now does this sound as though Paul learned this law from reading God's laws in the OT....or.....was it just something Paul was born with...part of his "DNA"!

Readers...now let's read how we receive the laws of God;

Rom.10
[14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Now let's read about just such a preacher....

Col.1
[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
[2] To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
[10] That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
[23] If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
[25] Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
[28] Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

And now let's learn just what Paul believed....

Acts 24
[10] Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
[14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

The preacher Paul tells us that he believes ALL THINGS that are written in the law and in the prophets; that would be everything from Gen. to Mal. That's the entire OT!

Readers....how can you have a knowledge of what is right and wrong in the eyes of God if you have not been taught? That knowledge is within you once you have been made aware of God's laws..for as the scriptures tell us....

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

The law cannot justify, which is to clear man of his sin. Only the blood of Christ could do that. But by reading the laws of God man is made aware of what is right and what is wrong in the eyes of God.

Which makes more sense.....

That God's laws are in our hearts and minds because He put them there through our DNA?

Or.....

That God's laws are in our heats and minds because a preacher gave us Gods words and told us what was right and what was wrong?


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[Eccl12and13]

"....I ain't perfect but because I follow the truth and you don't I sin less than you
have a good day.

Ummmmm.....maybe I should have asked this question first;

Just how old are you newcovenantchristian? Because this sounds just like something my 12yr old son would say after losing an argument with one of his friends.

"....I ain't perfect but because I follow the truth and you don't I sin less than you." Really? WOW!

You have a good day also!


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[Eccl12and13]

As always.....it's been a great Sabbath. Thanks for all of those that have been keeping up with this post and the replies.


Sun is down....time for some pizza and a movie! Will continue later this week!



Peace in the name of Jesus

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[RickShafer]

Ecc.12&13 said -
{Which makes more sense.....
That God's laws are in our hearts and minds because He put them there through our DNA?
Or.....
That God's laws are in our heats and minds because a preacher gave us Gods words and told us what was right and what was wrong? }

----The DNA strand is our physical genetic code. It has nothing to do with spirit except the Creator of all life, which is a spirit, put it there.
Jesus said in John ch. 17 that "the Comforter, (Holy Spirit), will lead you into all truth".
The preacher is the word of God written by the apostles as given by inspiration of the same Spirit.
Some reported what Jesus did and said, and others were given direct inspiration.
The same Spirit that gives those eternal life who accept the propitiation of Jesus Christ,
leads them into all truth. - "For the truth shall set you free".

The difference between salvation and sanctification is perfectly clear.

Ecc.12&13, your mixing them up.

The truth isn't arguments to win or lose, it's just forever.