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E
Just to clear this up...it was newcovenantchristian that said the following statement;
To which my reply was the following;
Now if God's laws were part of our DNA that would mean that ALL men know what is right and what is wrong in the eyes of God. And if that were the case would there be a need of a preacher?
Do ALL men know that it is wrong to covet, have respect of person, not to fornicate or bear false witness?
.
A
wow....
All I know is I got the DNA bit. especially if you understand the whole BORN AGAIN part. How when you are BORN AGAIN. God changes you from the inside out by writing His laws in your heart. you don't need a PREACHER to teach you but the HOLY SPIRIT teaches you right and wrong and you display the fruits of the Spirit such as love, kindness, patience, joy, faithfulness, and SELF CONTROL. you learn to tame your tongue and speak in LOVE and not to win an argument but to encourage one another to run the good race and strive towards the upward calling of God. To do good works because of the light and love within not because of the chains of sin or curses/condemnation of the law.
We are no longer slaves and eventually we will mature and not be children under the tutoring of the Law but walk in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, but until that day the law does tutor people to Christ so why fight so hard against it?
The Law teaches people self control and causes them to be separate from the world. A fear of God is not a bad thing. it is the BEGINNING of wisdom. the end of all things is LOVE.
However the steps between...that can be tricky. perhaps more prayer and scripture and less talk from me....
the Bible speaks of TWO laws, are you gentlemen sure you are referring to the same one when you converse? because it doesn't appear so to me reading just a few pages of this thread. it seems like some miscommunication is happening and everyone needs to just stop a minute and pray to God for understanding and guidance of the other person's words.. just a suggestion.
I think you guys agree on more then you realize and you are just tripping up on how you both word your beliefs, but then I could always be wrong and you all really do disagree about how the HOLY Spirit changes people and teaches them right and wrong and how to obey the laws of God.
All I know is I got the DNA bit. especially if you understand the whole BORN AGAIN part. How when you are BORN AGAIN. God changes you from the inside out by writing His laws in your heart. you don't need a PREACHER to teach you but the HOLY SPIRIT teaches you right and wrong and you display the fruits of the Spirit such as love, kindness, patience, joy, faithfulness, and SELF CONTROL. you learn to tame your tongue and speak in LOVE and not to win an argument but to encourage one another to run the good race and strive towards the upward calling of God. To do good works because of the light and love within not because of the chains of sin or curses/condemnation of the law.
We are no longer slaves and eventually we will mature and not be children under the tutoring of the Law but walk in the fullness of the Holy Spirit, but until that day the law does tutor people to Christ so why fight so hard against it?
The Law teaches people self control and causes them to be separate from the world. A fear of God is not a bad thing. it is the BEGINNING of wisdom. the end of all things is LOVE.
However the steps between...that can be tricky. perhaps more prayer and scripture and less talk from me....
the Bible speaks of TWO laws, are you gentlemen sure you are referring to the same one when you converse? because it doesn't appear so to me reading just a few pages of this thread. it seems like some miscommunication is happening and everyone needs to just stop a minute and pray to God for understanding and guidance of the other person's words.. just a suggestion.
I think you guys agree on more then you realize and you are just tripping up on how you both word your beliefs, but then I could always be wrong and you all really do disagree about how the HOLY Spirit changes people and teaches them right and wrong and how to obey the laws of God.
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A
wow that's so wrong. Jesus only came to remove ONE law of animal sacrifice?
you seriously believe this?
it doesn't make sense when you read the scriptures that say that Jesus removed a curse of the law that the Apostles' fathers could not bear.
The apostle's fathers could bear doing animal sacrifices quite well....therefore your current understanding does not logically fit scripture.
just read Galatians 3 again.
you seriously believe this?
it doesn't make sense when you read the scriptures that say that Jesus removed a curse of the law that the Apostles' fathers could not bear.
The apostle's fathers could bear doing animal sacrifices quite well....therefore your current understanding does not logically fit scripture.
just read Galatians 3 again.
A
oh sorry
I was just reading the thread from the beginning and was kind of shocked by a few of the statements.
why do you think he needs air?
didn't know if he was even listening.
anyway my apologizes for multiple post Ecc. I'm just trying to understand what you believe and why. I can see from my readings that our understanding of scripture differs somewhat. I just wonder what new covenant Jesus established and why the old one fades in these verses:
anyway I'll go back to reading the thread in order and maybe I'll find the answers there....
I was just reading the thread from the beginning and was kind of shocked by a few of the statements.
why do you think he needs air?
didn't know if he was even listening.
anyway my apologizes for multiple post Ecc. I'm just trying to understand what you believe and why. I can see from my readings that our understanding of scripture differs somewhat. I just wonder what new covenant Jesus established and why the old one fades in these verses:
anyway I'll go back to reading the thread in order and maybe I'll find the answers there....
Ariel, he'll need air when he wakes up and reads the promulgation of
answers against his positions, of which you were chief.
(I agreed with every word you said)
-Don't you think you should change your name to Bible Badger?
-Or Word Wolverine?
You attack with the Truth! (and I mean that in the kindest sense)
answers against his positions, of which you were chief.
(I agreed with every word you said)
-Don't you think you should change your name to Bible Badger?
-Or Word Wolverine?
You attack with the Truth! (and I mean that in the kindest sense)
A
in OP you mentioned the TWO different laws. care to expand?
Here's a hint to my answer: there are TWO different laws, you keep one and you don't do the other because it would be BONDAGE to the law of Sin and Death. you use discernment via the Holy Spirit to distinguish the two.
ok its more like a lighted neon sign that states my answer more than a hint but its 3 am here. not sure why i'm still awake, but the kids should be up in 3 hours.
Here's a hint to my answer: there are TWO different laws, you keep one and you don't do the other because it would be BONDAGE to the law of Sin and Death. you use discernment via the Holy Spirit to distinguish the two.
ok its more like a lighted neon sign that states my answer more than a hint but its 3 am here. not sure why i'm still awake, but the kids should be up in 3 hours.
I'll go ahead..........
'Is Keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for eternal life?'
Don't you see the misappropriation of works we can ever do in place of the
finished perfect life and obedient death of the Messiah?
In your posts, I have gathered that you believe the works of the believer in this life somehow save him/her.
There is nothing you or I could ever do from here on out to save ourselves.
Sanctification is a work of the same Holy Spirit that resided without measure in Jesus Christ.
It goes well beyond the law or what we could ever do.
Even if everything we did from here on out was perfectly guided by the Spirit.......
without the propitiation of His perfect Life given for us.......we would burn in hell
like Hitler.
'Is Keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for eternal life?'
Don't you see the misappropriation of works we can ever do in place of the
finished perfect life and obedient death of the Messiah?
In your posts, I have gathered that you believe the works of the believer in this life somehow save him/her.
There is nothing you or I could ever do from here on out to save ourselves.
Sanctification is a work of the same Holy Spirit that resided without measure in Jesus Christ.
It goes well beyond the law or what we could ever do.
Even if everything we did from here on out was perfectly guided by the Spirit.......
without the propitiation of His perfect Life given for us.......we would burn in hell
like Hitler.
E
Well let's see......
Has the law of Do not Steal been removed, or will men still be punished by God for that when He returns?
Has the law of Do not Murder been removed, or will men still be punished by God for that when He returns?
And how about the law of Do not covet? Will God punish men for coveting when He returns?
Now let's look at the flip side.....
Jesus had to come to shed His blood because the blood of bulls and goats could not remove sin. Let's confirm...
Heb.10
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
And where was the place that the blood of bulls and goats was shed? Behind the veil in the temple. Let's confirm...
Lev.16
[15] Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
And what happened the moment Jesus died? The veil of the temple was torn in two. Let's confirm...
Matt.27
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mark.15
[38] And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
Luke 23
[45] And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Now if there was no more vail where could the sacrifices be performed? They could not.
So tell me....which law was it that was removed after Jesus shed His blood? Did Jesus death remove His laws of Do not murder, covet and steal? Of course not. Those laws are yet with us and Jesus is going to punish those that commit them.
Would it be too much of a stretch to believe that it was the law of animal sacrifices that was removed?
Let's now read of some laws, that if done, will NOT allow one to enter into God's kingdom.....
Rev.22
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Now let's read what is needed to enter into God's kingdom....
Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
So....would it be fair to say that man is under some type of law that must be obeyed?
After all.....who is it that Jesus is coming to punish when He returns? Sinners! And what are sinners?
1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
.
Has the law of Do not Steal been removed, or will men still be punished by God for that when He returns?
Has the law of Do not Murder been removed, or will men still be punished by God for that when He returns?
And how about the law of Do not covet? Will God punish men for coveting when He returns?
Now let's look at the flip side.....
Jesus had to come to shed His blood because the blood of bulls and goats could not remove sin. Let's confirm...
Heb.10
[4] For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
And where was the place that the blood of bulls and goats was shed? Behind the veil in the temple. Let's confirm...
Lev.16
[15] Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:
And what happened the moment Jesus died? The veil of the temple was torn in two. Let's confirm...
Matt.27
[51] And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mark.15
[38] And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom.
Luke 23
[45] And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Now if there was no more vail where could the sacrifices be performed? They could not.
So tell me....which law was it that was removed after Jesus shed His blood? Did Jesus death remove His laws of Do not murder, covet and steal? Of course not. Those laws are yet with us and Jesus is going to punish those that commit them.
Would it be too much of a stretch to believe that it was the law of animal sacrifices that was removed?
Let's now read of some laws, that if done, will NOT allow one to enter into God's kingdom.....
Rev.22
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Now let's read what is needed to enter into God's kingdom....
Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
So....would it be fair to say that man is under some type of law that must be obeyed?
After all.....who is it that Jesus is coming to punish when He returns? Sinners! And what are sinners?
1 John 3
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
.
E
So.....you believe that you do NOT have to keep God's laws and commandments and still receive eternal life. Understood!
Well....let me ask you this.....
Do you believe a change is needed in ones life if they decide to follow the true and living God?
And if so.....what change is it that you believe is needed?
.
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Make sure you remember to do all those things Ecc.;
don't let the Spirit of Grace get in the way and empower you.
(Don't you see, people under the new covenant won't be
doing those things.)
It's not a power that abides within their own will,
it is the presence of the Spirit of Grace........working out
His own salvation within the template/body of the believer in which it resides.
Free will? Yes, of course, but the Spirit leads It's own.
"My sheep know my voice"
Even doing thus - following the leading of the Spirit won't save you.
Don't you see, you already have eternal life or the Holy Spirit wouldn't reside in you;
and lead you thusly(sp) to good works.
The works don't save you!
The finished work of Jesus Christ does.
don't let the Spirit of Grace get in the way and empower you.
(Don't you see, people under the new covenant won't be
doing those things.)
It's not a power that abides within their own will,
it is the presence of the Spirit of Grace........working out
His own salvation within the template/body of the believer in which it resides.
Free will? Yes, of course, but the Spirit leads It's own.
"My sheep know my voice"
Even doing thus - following the leading of the Spirit won't save you.
Don't you see, you already have eternal life or the Holy Spirit wouldn't reside in you;
and lead you thusly(sp) to good works.
The works don't save you!
The finished work of Jesus Christ does.