Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?

[haz]

First let's read how the "King" responded to this in the OT:

Ezek.18
[24] But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
[25] Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?
[26] When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

So if the righteous person, or one that is keeping the commandments of God, turns away and starts doing that which is wrong....AND continues....he will die in his sins.


Now let's read how the "King" responded in the NT:


Heb.6
[4] For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


God's word tells us above if one that was made partakers of the Holy Ghost falls away.....AND continues....it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them again unto repentance. For they are now trying to crucify for themselves Christ all over again, making what He did for them by dying on the cross appear shameful.

Now let's read what sins Christ died for;

Rom.3
[25] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Christ died for those sins that were committed by us in the past...BEFORE we became aware of His word. Afterward.....we will be held accountable for ALL future sins.

So.........we do not have to wonder how the King will respond. The King has already told us!

Hi Eccl 12and13,

Are we to assume that you claim you have been keeping the law perfectly since the day you became a Christian?

You misunderstand scripture.

You preach righteousness by works of the law. This is self-righteousness.

But God is speaking of those who submit to His righteousness. It's righteousness by faith (not works).
In Christ we are righteous, holy (Rom 11:16), sanctified (Heb 10:10), perfected (Heb 10:14) and cannot sin (1John 3:9).

 

[sillysally204]

Hopefully some have read the Posts "What Law is This Paul Speaks of". And more importantly you have read the (2) posts after, "Answer to the OP Which law is this Paul speaks of Parts 1 & 2", which answers the question of the first post, "What Law is This Paul Speaks of?"

If you have read them, you now understand that Paul speaks of (2) sets of laws throughout his writings. After reading the post hopefully all that read understand that Paul uses the phrases 'works and deeds of the law' NOT to mean that ALL of God's laws have been nailed to His cross. As a matter of fact, Paul teaches all that he preaches to to KEEP God's laws, as he did himself to the best of his abilities.

Now on to a topic that most will not agree with but is a doctrine that is supported by scripture.

My question to the forum, as is indicated by the title; "Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?"

Now this is a very simple question, that if thought about logically, has an answer that is just as simple.

So again I ask...."Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?

Just as with my other posts....let's toss this topic around for awhile...pray and ask God for wisdom and understanding....and let's study and present God's word as proof and not emotions, to come up with a sound biblical doctrine. And let's remember to use ALL of Gods word....

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That means we cannot toss some scriptures if it seems to contradict others; all MUST be used and work together.

"Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?"


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The purpose of the law is to detect and condemn sin..not to deliver us from it.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Hi Eccl 12and13,

Are we to assume that you claim you have been keeping the law perfectly since the day you became a Christian?

Of course not. ALL have sinned and continue to do so....even those filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus instructs us to ask for forgiveness when we pray.

And once again..... you will find NO WHERE in God's word where faith only is needed for salvation. And why is this? Because it takes more than faith for salvation.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28

The problem with the above scripture is that most, if any, do not know which law it is that Paul speaks of.

Consider this.....what laws of God required that "deeds" "works" be done?


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[Eccl12and13]

The purpose of the law is to detect and condemn sin..not to deliver us from it.

The scriptures never said that the law delivers us from sin. Breaking God's laws IS sin. But.....if you break and continue to break God's laws....will you be allowed entrance into His kingdom?

This is bible 101. My 12 year old son knows the answer to this. But let's read God's word once again to read who it will be that will be allowed to enter into His kingdom and those that will not;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

How simple is this? Who is it that will be allowed into God's kingdom? Those that keep His laws.

And who will NOT be allowed therein? Those that do NOT keep His laws.

Let's read what Paul had to say about God's laws;

Rom.7
[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Paul tells us the commandments give life. What life? Life eternal if they are obeyed!

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[haz]

Of course not. ALL have sinned and continue to do so....even those filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus instructs us to ask for forgiveness when we pray.

And once again..... you will find NO WHERE in God's word where faith only is needed for salvation. And why is this? Because it takes more than faith for salvation.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28

The problem with the above scripture is that most, if any, do not know which law it is that Paul speaks of.

Consider this.....what laws of God required that "deeds" "works" be done?

The scriptures I quoted clearly show that it's faith alone. What else did the thief on the cross do beyond faith? Nothing.

The doctrine you follow where the law is separated into 2 is not supported in scripture.

This is also confirmed by the fact that the thief on the cross was saved without any obedience to the 10 commandments (the law) as you insist upon in your gospel.

As only past sin was dealt with at the cross (Rom 3:25) then you stand condemned by your doctrine as you yourself still "sin". You can't crucify Christ again for subsequent sin.

Breaking God's laws IS sin. But.....if you break and continue to break God's laws....will you be allowed entrance into His kingdom?

This is bible 101. My 12 year old son knows the answer to this. But let's read God's word once again to read who it will be that will be allowed to enter into His kingdom and those that will not;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[15] For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

How simple is this? Who is it that will be allowed into God's kingdom? Those that keep His laws.

And who will NOT be allowed therein? Those that do NOT keep His laws.

Let's read what Paul had to say about God's laws;

Rom.7
[10] And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Paul tells us the commandments give life. What life? Life eternal if they are obeyed!

As you have admitted that you still "sin" (transgress the law/break the commandments) then where does that leave you?
The answer, according to your own words:
"Who is it that will be allowed into God's kingdom? Those that keep His laws.
And who will NOT be allowed therein? Those that do NOT keep His laws."

How often have you broken the same commandments/do not keep His laws?
To what extent is too much breaking of the same commandments resulting in denial of entry into God's kingdom?
As you claim that we ask forgiveness of our transgressions, how often will God forgive? Can we continue disobeying over and over asking forgiveness each time?

But what does the true gospel show?
Christ set us free from sin, john 8:36
Christians have "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1 and "cannot sin", 1John 3:9
Nobody can lay anything (sin/transgression of the law) to charge against those God has justified, Rom 8:33

It's grace alone, as scriptures confirm.

 

[RickShafer]

Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?

Oh, I don't know.
Is stopping when the traffic light is red needed?
Or not going to sleep on railroad tracks?
Or not jumping off a high place needed.........
to preserve your physical life?
Notice how the knowledge of these dangers become second nature?
So neither do you have to keep reminding yourself,
or have someone else always reminding you?

So it is with everyone who is led by the Spirit of God.

 

[Eccl12and13]

The scriptures I quoted clearly show that it's faith alone. What else did the thief on the cross do beyond faith?

Do you know WHY the thief was stealing? Do you know if, other than stealing for a reason unknown to us, that the thief wasn't otherwise doing his best at keeping the rest of God's commandments?

Did not David eat the bread from the temple...which was against the law. And yet we know that he will be in God's kingdom?

According to God's laws....should the thief have even been put to death for his crime? Let's read....

Exod.22
[1] If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.
[2] If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.
[3] If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft.
[4] If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.
[5] If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.
[6] If fire break out, and catch in thorns, so that the stacks of corn, or the standing corn, or the field, be consumed therewith; he that kindled the fire shall surely make restitution.
[7] If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.
[8] If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour's goods.
[9] For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
[10] If a man deliver unto his neighbour an ass, or an ox, or a sheep, or any beast, to keep; and it die, or be hurt, or driven away, no man seeing it:
[11] Then shall an oath of the LORD be between them both, that he hath not put his hand unto his neighbour's goods; and the owner of it shall accept thereof, and he shall not make it good.
[12] And if it be stolen from him, he shall make restitution unto the owner thereof.

At no point did God ever condemn a thief to death, as was the case with the thieves on the cross.

Again....who was in the wrong? Sure the thieves may have stolen....but the punishment should NOT have been death on a cross!


Again.....not ONCE will you or ANYBODY else find anywhere in God's word says that it takes ONLY faith for salvation. You see....for if it were written you and everybody else would have provided Book, Chapter and verse to prove me wrong.

Jesus NEVER said that faith ONLY is needed for salvation.
Paul NEVER said that faith ONLY is needed for salvation.
The Holy Spirit NEVER said the faith ONLY is needed for salvation.

Can you find ANYONE in all of the bible that has said, "You ONLY need faith to be saved?" No you cannot! It's such a simple statement you would think it would be pointed out.


So where is everybody getting this false doctrine? I know you guys want such an easy way out....but it takes MORE than just having faith.


If it's in God's word show me the scriptures that says so!


Again I ask.....at what point did Abraham prove his faith to God?


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[Eccl12and13]

Readers....consider this;

If having Faith requires just ONE other component then logic would dictate that faith alone for salvation is a false doctrine.

And God's word tells us what is needed to have faith....and having faith requires way more than just one other component.

Do any of those that profess a "faith only salvation doctrine" know what are the components that God tells us are needed for having faith?


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[haz]

Hi Eccl12and 13,

Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness.

So what did the thief on the cross and all other Christians do? They believed God.
And what are the works that show our faith? Believe on Jesus, John 6:29
And by believing on Jesus, Christians are really believing on God, just like Abraham did.
John 12:44-50
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness......
....................And I know that his commandment is life everlasting:

Note how obedience/works of the law are not included.

I've quoted the scriptures confirming that it is by faith that we are justified (not obedience/works of the law). Our works of believing on Jesus shows our faith. Yet you reject the scriptures I've quoted confirming that it's by faith. Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but it seems like you deny that we are justified by faith. Is this correct?

Anyone who adds obedience/works of the law to this show by their works that they deny that Jesus is the Christ. They are not justified by faith and instead seek justification by works of the law. They are disobedient to the will of God.
this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life, John 6:40

As for the thief on the cross, your wish that he was somehow innocent or not deserving of death is odd. The thief admitted himself that he was deserving of the punishment of death. We all have sinned, including the thief on the cross. Hence we all needed a savior.

But, the main point about the thief on the cross is that he was God's example to the world to show us that it's grace alone, without obedience/works of the law.

 

[psychomom]

Do you know WHY the thief was stealing? Do you know if, other than stealing for a reason unknown to us, that the thief wasn't otherwise doing his best at keeping the rest of God's commandments?

This is interesting for two reasons...first being you assume the penitent thief was a Jew...and we really have no way of knowing for sure that he was. (unless someone knows some scripture I haven't read/don't understand?)

And the second because this man himself said he deserved to be there.

And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong. (Luke 23:41)

thoughts?

 

[psychomom]

Of course not. ALL have sinned and continue to do so....even those filled with the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus instructs us to ask for forgiveness when we pray.

And once again..... you will find NO WHERE in God's word where faith only is needed for salvation. And why is this? Because it takes more than faith for salvation.

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28

The problem with the above scripture is that most, if any, do not know which law it is that Paul speaks of.

Consider this.....what laws of God required that "deeds" "works" be done?

Please tell me, according to this "gospel", (which I put in quotes because it doesn't sound like good news...)
how much obedience is enough obedience to be saved?
You mention forgiveness, but also clearly show you must believe that at some point God will stop responding to these requests for forgiveness if your obedience is lacking.

So, respectfully...just how much righteousness do we have to obtain in our flesh to be acceptable to God? How can we know if we are righteous?
How much must I obey today to avoid damnation if I die tonight?
If I do not fully obey the law of Moses today, and die tonight, is it just too bad for me?
(cuz s'pose I fall asleep before I have FULLY repented... )

-ellie

 

[Red33]

Lk 18:18-27

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Lk 10:25-37

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Do you not know that there are steps that God tells us we need to take to have faith?

Do any of those that profess a "faith only salvation doctrine" know what are the steps that God tells us are needed for having faith?

And just the fact of needing steps let's us know that it takes MORE than faith for salvation...for how can we have faith if the necessary steps are not taken to obtain it?

What steps does God tell us in His word are we to take to receive faith?







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[RickShafer]

You remain blind.
Can't you see all the steps we take into the kingdom of heaven are ordered by God?
Can not you see that there is no good in us apart from the Life of Christ?
Cannot you see that?

So may I ask, what are the self appointed steps we must take to get God's attention?

And why do you think they are not already ordered by God?

Methinks you tell your own hear to beat.

 

[Eccl12and13]

Readers...... One does not come to have faith without first getting some sort of information.

When you were first instructed on how to drive somebody TOLD you that by pressing the brake pedal the car would stop. You then had faith that when you would press the brake pedal the car would stop.

Now.....Why and how do we have faith in Jesus Christ?

Knowing who Jesus is and what He has done and will do for us gives us faith. But before we had faith we had to HEAR the word of God. And once we heard the word we made up in our minds if we would believe those words we heard.

And what happened afterwards?

We OBEYED those words that we heard.

So.....is it ONLY faith that is needed?


Again I ask...... When did God know for a fact that Abraham had faith?



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[Eccl12and13]

Is keeping the Commandments and Laws of God Needed for Eternal Life?

Oh, I don't know.
Is stopping when the traffic light is red needed?
Or not going to sleep on railroad tracks?
Or not jumping off a high place needed.........
to preserve your physical life?
Notice how the knowledge of these dangers become second nature?
So neither do you have to keep reminding yourself,
or have someone else always reminding you?

So it is with everyone who is led by the Spirit of God.

So the Spirit reminds those that are led by it to keep God's laws! And the Spirit reminds them of this so that they may enter into God's kingdom.


John 14
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


So....if one has not been taught, told or read anything about God and His laws...what is there for the Spirit to bring to remembrance?


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[RickShafer]

Thanks for restating my position.
I even appreciate that you used my driving analogy.
How your terms seemed to change..........
from 'you must obey these laws', to the Holy Spirit will help you
obey these laws.
Thanks for changing your position on my behalf.
You even brought up the importance of reading the Word
I appreciate that!

 

[haz]

Hi Eccl 12and13,

You said: "it takes more than faith for salvation"
You claim that it takes obedience to the law (10 commandments), in addition to faith, for us to be saved. This is error.

Consider Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law ( which includes 10 commandments), but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law (10 commandments): for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Scripture contradicts your gospel.

Again I refer to the example God gave us of the thief on the cross. He was justified/saved by faith, without obedience/works of the law (which Gal 2:16 above confirms).

Your gospel is a complicated, lukewarm mix of grace plus works of the law.


Now you admitted that you still disobey the law, so we know that you do not keep the commandments. At first glance it appears that by your own doctrine you stand condemned.
But you seem to claim that perfect obedience is not required. I don't see anything in scripture supporting your claim. What I do see is that those under the law are required to keep it perfectly.

James 2:10,11
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Psychomom asked you the following questions:

"how much obedience is enough obedience to be saved?
You mention forgiveness, but also clearly show you must believe that at some point God will stop responding to these requests for forgiveness if your obedience is lacking.

So, respectfully...just how much righteousness do we have to obtain in our flesh to be acceptable to God? How can we know if we are righteous?
How much must I obey today to avoid damnation if I die tonight?
If I do not fully obey the law of Moses today, and die tonight, is it just too bad for me?"

Can you answer these questions?

 

[Eccl12and13]

Thanks for restating my position.
I even appreciate that you used my driving analogy.
How your terms seemed to change..........
from 'you must obey these laws', to the Holy Spirit will help you
obey these laws.
Thanks for changing your position on my behalf.
You even brought up the importance of reading the Word
I appreciate that!

My position has not changed. When the Holy Spirit brings all things that you have been taught or read to your remembrance you MUST obey.

Do you disagree?

Again....faith is needed...BUT....what does it take to obtain faith? Do you know what God tells us to do to obtain faith?

And AGAIN I ask...... When did God know for a fact that Abraham had faith? Do you not know the answer?

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[Eccl12and13]

Hi Eccl 12and13,

You said: "it takes more than faith for salvation"
You claim that it takes obedience to the law (10 commandments), in addition to faith, for us to be saved. This is error.

So....you believe that you can have faith in God's word and NOT have to keep His laws and STILL expect to be allowed entrance into His kingdom? And you claim I am in error?

Let's read who it is and what they must do to be allowed entrance into God's kingdom;

Rev.22
[14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Now.....what of those that do NOT keep God's laws? Will they be allowed to the right to the tree of life?


Also..... It's not just the 10 that we are to keep. For if we have respect of persons, which is NOT part of the 10, we yet commit sin. If we do not ask for forgiveness when we pray as instructed by Christ we yet commit sin. ANYTHING that we have been told to do or not to do, if not done is SIN!


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