IS MAN TOTALLY DEPRAVED?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#21
That's what I like to read, for God's kingdom is true love, and God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.
This sounds sweet and all, my friend, but is without biblical support. Let me show you.

1 So what advantage does the Jew have? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2 Considerable in every way. First, they were entrusted with the spoken words of God.(Romans 3)

3 For I could almost wish to be cursed and cut off from the Messiah for the benefit of my brothers, my own flesh and blood. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, and the promises. 5 The ancestors are theirs, and from them, by physical descent, came the Messiah, who is God over all, praised forever. Amen.(Romans 9)

Here we can read where Paul is telling the believers in Rome of the status the Jews once had. They, and only they, had the words of God, the covenants, promises, temple service, etc. This was not given to the Philistines, Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Jebusites, Hittites, Hivites, Amalekites, Moabites et al. These nations had no sacrificial system to atone for their sins. They had no scapegoat and high priest to lay his hands upon it to transfer their sins upon that scapegoat. They had no temple to worship in that was pleasing to God. God had made no promises to them. They were not entrusted with God's word. In essence, they were cut off from God with no hope of being saved, only unless God was to sovereignly save some from those nations such as Rahab and Ruth.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,018
1,969
113
#22
Not if they believe in Jesus and put their faith in Him.

So everyone must hear about Jesus because faith comes from hearing the word of God. And if you already know Him you must tell others about Him so they can hear too and become totally saved.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#23
Not if they believe in Jesus and put their faith in Him.

So everyone must hear about Jesus because faith comes from hearing the word of God. And if you already know Him you must tell others about Him so they can hear too and become totally saved.
In the OT, show me where the other nations had a covenant with God, were entrusted with His word, had a high priest to intercede for them before God, had a sacrificial system that atoned for their sins, my friend.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,018
1,969
113
#24
In the OT, show me where the other nations had a covenant with God, were entrusted with His word, had a high priest to intercede for them before God, had a sacrificial system that atoned for their sins, my friend.
I am talking about now.
Why are you going back to the OT, we are in the New Covenant now.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#25
I am talking about now.
Why are you going back to the OT, we are in the New Covenant now.
Okay, what about those who have died and never had a bible and/or never heard the gospel? According to 'Alliance for the unreached', approximately 3.4 BILLION people have never heard the gospel. Of those that have not heard and died, what about their eternal state?

I was showing the OT peoples who were not chosen by God were justly left condemned in their sins, just like people in today's world who God justly left condemned in their sins.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,018
1,969
113
#26
Sigh ok what about the Noahic covenant which was before Abraham that God made with a sign if the rainbow, and He made it with all the animals in creation too.

If you want to know who God is you'd see he never again devatastated the whole world with a massive flood, because He saw that mankind and creation was worth saving. The rainbow is a sign of the loving God all of us can see, even the animals.

He sends the rain on the righteous and unrighteous alike...
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
5,018
1,969
113
#27
Noah was before Abrahm and he was righteous in ALL his generations. Says right in the Bible. It does not say he was totally depraved.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#28
I am talking about now.
Why are you going back to the OT, we are in the New Covenant now.
Wayne Peterson of the ‘Alliance for the Unreached’ told CBN news “Out of the seven billion people on planet Earth, I think it’s 3.2 billion people, which is about 40 percent of the population, have no opportunity to hear the gospel where they live, in their location.” This was as of April 2018.

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/cwn/201...sus-day-to-reach-the-unreached-set-for-may-20
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#29
Noah was before Abrahm and he was righteous in ALL his generations. Says right in the Bible. It does not say he was totally depraved.
There is no righteousness outside of God. Our righteousness is the same as a used menstrual cloth(Isaiah 64:6).
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#30
Sigh ok what about the Noahic covenant which was before Abraham that God made with a sign if the rainbow, and He made it with all the animals in creation too.

If you want to know who God is you'd see he never again devatastated the whole world with a massive flood, because He saw that mankind and creation was worth saving. The rainbow is a sign of the loving God all of us can see, even the animals.

He sends the rain on the righteous and unrighteous alike...
That rainbow was a promise of not destroying the earth with water again, not a covenant that saves people my friend.
 

delirious

Junior Member
Mar 16, 2017
490
97
28
#31
In the OT, show me where the other nations had a covenant with God, were entrusted with His word, had a high priest to intercede for them before God, had a sacrificial system that atoned for their sins, my friend.
Hebrews 10: 4-5, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me."

The Old Covenant didn't take away Israel's sins either. Salvation has always been by faith and faith in God atones for your sins through the work of Christ.

John 5: 24, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

You are making the false claim that because the Philistines, Egyptians, Assyrians, Syrians, Jebusites, Hittites, Hivites, Amalekites, Moabites didn't have the Mosaic covenant, and a priest, they couldn't be saved. That's works salvation heresy. It's what the Pharisees believed. They thought because they were children of Abraham and had priests and the law they would be saved. Jesus told them repeatedly unless you believe in Me you will die in your sins.

Where does it say in Scripture that no people were saved from any of those nations? Do you have a Scripture? No, just an assumption. If they had faith in God then God saved them through Christ. Just like He did Job and Ruth and Rahab.

Why was Rahab saved? Because she had a priest or because she believed in God?
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#32
I am talking about now.
Why are you going back to the OT, we are in the New Covenant now.
The OT is the NT concealed and the NT is the OT revealed...or something similar to this saying my friend. God has always had a chosen people, in both covenants. Israel in the OT, the church in the NT. Israel was the only nation God chose to carry out His will, as He justly left the other nations condemned in their sins...He did them no injustice at all in doing so, either.

For grace to be grace, it has to be free. He does not offer grace to everyone. If He has to, then it no longer is grace, but becomes an obligation.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,159
3,724
113
#33
Reprobate (those who are ordained to damnation) stay in their natural state and perish
Nobody is ORDAINED TO damnation. That is absolute nonsense.

If men were ordained to (decreed for) damnation why would God command all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Would that not be a cruel joke?

Why would Christ command the Church to preach the Gospel to every creature? Would that not be in vain?

Why would Scripture say that God is NOT WILLING that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance? Would God not be contradicting Himself?

Five Point Calvinism has absolutely no foundation in the Bible. It is all man-made, and if one of the dominoes falls, they all fall together. It is *another Gospel*, just like all the false gospels out there.
 
Nov 22, 2018
69
41
18
#34
When you open your eyes and look you realize how the Bible is being interpreted in different ways, I just pray God help us and have mercy on our soul.
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#35
When you open your eyes and look you realize how the Bible is being interpreted in different ways, I just pray God help us and have mercy on our soul.
My friend, may I ask who you are addressing here? It's a rather vague, obscure post. Thanks.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,904
4,157
113
#37
Seems some WERE made to be destroyed:

2 Peter 2:12 New King James Version (NKJV)
Depravity of False Teachers
12 But these, like natural brute beasts MADE to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
8,238
1,824
113
#38
That's what I like to read, for God's kingdom is true love, and God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth seeing no other alternative.

If God chooses who will be saved, and not saved, without their choose in the matter then God's kingdom is not true love, for they have no choice but to accept the truth seeing no other alternative.

That means their faith is not real, their confessing Christ is not real, their repenting of their sins is not real, their hope is not real, their love is not real, for it did not come from them but from God.

I was thinking about that how what they believe goes against a multitude of scriptures.

The Bible plainly states that God wants everyone to repent, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved, and the Spirit and bride say Come, and anybody can have that salvation, and Jesus lights every person born in this world, which means everybody has the chance to see the light of Jesus and be saved.

Why do they ignore that.

The truth to believe in Calvinism is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is attributing something evil to God when He is good, which you cannot say God condemns people that have no input in the situation.

The truth is if God chose who would be saved without their choice, He would of never created the earth, but created them to be with Him and cut out the earth, for the earth serves no purpose in that situation, for whether He created them to be with Him, or put them on earth, the result is the same for they have no participation in their salvation.

The Bible says that all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

And there is none that does good, no, not one.

And if you offend in the least of the law you offend in all.

And counts the nations as nothing, and less than nothing, to illustrate the point of how God is so great compared to us.

And God is no respecter of persons, but everyone in every nation that works righteousness is accepted with Him.

And there is no difference between the Jew and Gentile.

And said if you think you are something when you are nothing then you deceive yourself.

So God said everybody is in the same boat, on the same level, the same in the eyes of God with no one different from the other, but a sinner in the world.

So could these people please explain what criteria, and measure, is God choosing these people to be saved, and others cannot be saved, and they all have no choice in the matter.

Is it because heaven can only hold so many people, even though God is an omnipresent Spirit.

Is it because they have blue, and green eyes.

Is it because they are left handed.

What is the reason God would chose some, and not others, without their choice, when all people are the same in the eyes of God.

They need to explain that so we can see how they are so different that they got chosen, because I do not see it.

But that is true many scriptures do not make sense when viewed by Calvinism, which is far too many to think it is true.
What a disaster of a post...

Sorry, you just don't know how to properly exegete and interpret Scripture and the above is merely a diatribe of you dictating how God ought to act to be God according to you, not Scripture.

So if God exercises justice, He's evil? Gotcha. If he doesn't do what you deem fair, He's evil? Okey dokey. So, you have God on trial, interesting. You know that "fair" means "just?" So, you want God to be "fair" or "just" but when He is, you complain and call it evil? Do you know what justice is? You better be learning, real fast, especially after your Romans 9:20 tirade.

There's all that, and then just a minor issue after your above judgment of God; It's your 2 Peter 3:9 mistake. When are you going to learn context? The "repentance" there in the text is concerning his elect, not all men of all time.

From the beginning of the epistle to that verse the "you" are the elect. It flows from the beginning of the epistle to the end. This is why he delays his coming, until the full harvest is brought in of those whom he has chosen, cf. Ephesians 1:4. This is what the passage is about, why God has not sent his son at that time. More elect are to be saved -- Soli Deo Gloria!
 
Nov 22, 2018
69
41
18
#39
While reading this posts, I do not know if I should be amazed or unpleasant . One thing I know is that even John was not assured that the man that was coming to him to be baptized was Jesus he asked but Jesus didn't rebuke him. Jesus is slow to anger and tolerate I do not understand why we can not tolerate others. We were there in one shoes before, we were confuse before now that we are enlighten why cant we help those who lack knowledge in a slow, gentle manner for them to understand.Galatians: 5:22-"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. ... If I am misunderstanding the bible why can you not help me understand or correct me in a gentle manner? John 13:35 by loving one another will we be known that we are His disciples
 

Sackcloth-N-Ashes

Well-known member
Oct 25, 2018
1,666
853
113
#40
While reading this posts, I do not know if I should be amazed or unpleasant . One thing I know is that even John was not assured that the man that was coming to him to be baptized was Jesus he asked but Jesus didn't rebuke him. Jesus is slow to anger and tolerate I do not understand why we can not tolerate others. We were there in one shoes before, we were confuse before now that we are enlighten why cant we help those who lack knowledge in a slow, gentle manner for them to understand.Galatians: 5:22-"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. ... If I am misunderstanding the bible why can you not help me understand or correct me in a gentle manner? John 13:35 by loving one another will we be known that we are His disciples
Most posts attack the theology, not the person. Huge difference my friend. Was Jesus sweet and all when He made a cord and ran people out of the temple? Was Jesus sweet when He told the Pharisees they were of the devil? Was Paul sweet when he said that people should just emasculate themselves?