Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

[rauleetoe]

You don't really have any idea what you are talking about do you? And ignorance is really easy to forgive... See, already done!

Oh but i do sir..
God is Holy..We all will have to answer to him. And I simply appeal to that fact that he is Holy and to be revered. He deserves reverance..not your lip service..he wants committment..not your christian platitudes.

Something is required..easy believism is simply the wide gate down to hell. And I pray few and if possible that none here will walk down that road..it leads to hell, That's not God's will for you.

 

[rauleetoe]

Hi Raul

Genuine questions

You contniually state we must be doers of the word/have deeds, otherwise our faith is dead, and you believe most of the churches fail in this
Can you tell me what deeds you do that you feel most others are lacking in?

And what sins you believe you abstain from that most others who go to church partake in. I am just genuinely trying to understand where you believe people who go to church/calvanists fail where you are succeeding
Thanks

It is not that i am 'suceeding' in my own self. Regarding calvinists, many..i never said all, but many by the necessary implications, and logical conclusions of what their theology teaches simply believe! I know others do as well..some baptists..some calvinists..etc, they beleive repentance is no longer needed. But what did Jesus say, Go, and sin no more(of course he said this after, I do not condemn you either, to the woman caught in adultery).
That said, why do you resist so much what James 2,1 peter 1,1 thessalonians 4,and other scriptures teach.

For you are dead, and your life is hid with God,in Christ..collosians 3:3.

It is quite simple..die to self. And this requires an action. Lay your life on the altar. That is what is required. I know, many will not want to do that. The problem with a living sacrifice is that it can possibly crawl off the altar. What i am saying is, stay on the altar.
That is all.

 

[mark54]

It is not that i am 'suceeding' in my own self. Regarding calvinists, many..i never said all, but many by the necessary implications, and logical conclusions of what their theology teaches simply believe! I know others do as well..some baptists..some calvinists..etc, they beleive repentance is no longer needed. But what did Jesus say, Go, and sin no more(of course he said this after, I do not condemn you either, to the woman caught in adultery).
That said, why do you resist so much what James 2,1 peter 1,1 thessalonians 4,and other scriptures teach.

For you are dead, and your life is hid with God,in Christ..collosians 3:3.

It is quite simple..die to self. And this requires an action. Lay your life on the altar. That is what is required. I know, many will not want to do that. The problem with a living sacrifice is that it can possibly crawl off the altar. What i am saying is, stay on the altar.
That is all.

Forgive me Raul

But as you continually state that Christians must be doers, can you tell me what works/deeds you specifically do that you feel most other Christians do not do? Deeds/works that set you apart from most of Christendom
And also what has been the fruit in your life of you laying your life on the altar?
And as you believe most Christians are licentious, what sins do you believe they are committing that you are not?

I don't feel bland statements are that helpful, can you give me practical answers concerning your own life based on the above questions, as to where you feel you succeed and others fail
Thanks

 

[Rock022]

If you gut would like to see an official view of "assurance of salvation" by the catholic church and not an individual catholic here is a link that might interest you. Just posting for those interested if any.

Assurance of Salvation? | Catholic Answers < link

 

[rauleetoe]

Forgive me Raul

But as you continually state that Christians must be doers, can you tell me what works/deeds you specifically do that you feel most other Christians do not do? Deeds/works that set you apart from most of Christendom
And also what has been the fruit in your life of you laying your life on the altar?
And as you believe most Christians are licentious, what sins do you believe they are committing that you are not?

I don't feel bland statements are that helpful, can you give me practical answers concerning your own life based on the above questions, as to where you feel you succeed and others fail
Thanks

The fruit of my life has been a changed life, sincere christian conversion..all things. I am a better employee, a better neighbor..a better son, a better brother..someone who hates sin and seeks to live a life that pleases God, with God's help, aka his Holy spirit helping me each day. So, whats the problem again? What other things i have to prove to you,and explain to you? I can only say God has met me, and changed my life. What more do you want?
what more?
Its not that I succeed more than you, so do not get it twisted. You too can have this, and why should you not. I am simply saying, when you say faith with works is works based or trying to win the rat race, well then You must not like james 2 in the Bible. I did not write that, what did i say which was bland? You merely want to play games with words and be pseudo philosophical. Just believing? The demons do that, did that help them? Will that help them? Where are the demons that believe? Get my point? Walk with God. Why are you acting like you do not understand. Camina con Dios. There its in spanish. Maybe you understand that.
I never said most christians are licentious. Do not lie, I never said that. I said, some are..do you disagree that some are not?
Many are..I never said all are. But those who appeal only to grace that does not require a response(repentance) run the most risk of being licentious.
If you fail, chances are you wanted to fail..you did not realize God has something better for you..did not want the help, wanted your sin and your way more than God..or simply did not ask God to help you.
I know you can read..since you're good with word games. Stop the word games. Read what i read, stop twisting what i said.
I never ever said all other christians are licentious. Some are..many here seem to be or be for that,or simply hate those who believe we can live for God as Christ followers.

So, if you want to just believe, as some do(i said some, stop your accusations)
then you can freely choose, after all I believe in free choice.
Or maybe you were predestined,as some say, to be an 'easy believer'..though i say that is not the case.

 

[Katy-follower]

The Power of God is what saves us and the Power of God is what keeps us saved. Anything more than this, or anything added to this is the philosophy of men and a Lie. What no one can show is scripture that says once a person is Saved by God they can then depart from their salvation, or worse yet, that God will take it away. All that can be shown is a mans philosophy of how they THINK a person can lose their salvation. Romans 6:22-23 [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 11:29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. This new format isn't working very well...

Amen to that!

What is the good news that some of you are sharing with the lost? A conditional salvation? The lost already have no security. We are saved by Christ's work, not our own. Denying that God keeps us is to hold onto a belief that we still must do something - this is works. We cannot maintain our salvation by the things that we do. This is a denial of salvation by grace.

There is only one born again experience, not several. We become new creatures in Christ and it cannot be undone because it's one of God's promises to us, that we are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (the HS is a guarantee of our inheritance!) We have crossed over from death to life. We don't cross back over to death, lol.

The Bible is clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:16, Ephesians 2:8-9) Salvation is not gained by faith, but then maintained by works. Paul said in Galatians 3:3 - "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" We cannot earn our own salvation so neither can we earn the maintenance of our salvation. It is God who maintains our salvation.

Jude 1:24: "Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy"

John 10:28-29: "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand"

Romans 8:38-39: "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

 

[Grandpa]

Oh but i do sir..
God is Holy..We all will have to answer to him. And I simply appeal to that fact that he is Holy and to be revered. He deserves reverance..not your lip service..he wants committment..not your christian platitudes.

Something is required..easy believism is simply the wide gate down to hell. And I pray few and if possible that none here will walk down that road..it leads to hell, That's not God's will for you.

Tie all that in to the topic of eternal security using bible verses. Or continue showing you have no idea what you are talking about. The choice is yours...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

How do you teach 'once saved always saved' correctly?

By giving them the gospel. And not a bunch of words.

1. You tell them what the law tells them about themselves (sinner, Unrighteous, Dead to God)
2. You tell them what the penalty of sin is (death)
3. You tell them that of their own power, they can not come out of this situation of alienation between them and God (spiritual death), because all men have sinned and fall short. thus nothing we could ever do would make us righteous in Gods eyes.
4. bring them to a point of repentnance (this may take days or longer, and may not take long at all, as he has already know this and is at the point of repentance. Ask them to pray for God to show them, if they are not here yet.
5. Show them what scripture says, (call out on the name of the lord, Have faith in all he says and does concerning our alienation and his gift of eternal life. Receive his gift.)
6. Once he receives it. Disciple him, in all areas, This is a long term commitment. If you can;t, then tell him to find someone who can. Do not leave him as many churches to fend on his own.


what not to do.

1. Tell him mere belief is enough, say this prayer and your saved no matter what (nothing about repentance here)
2. Let him claim to have received Christ, but continue living as the world. Confront him now on his issues if he continues to struggle. not in a judgmental way, but in a loving manner.
3. If he refuses to change, and claims he does not need to. Then ask him why he has not repented yet. Inform him you are doubtful he had faith in Christ, if he did, he would show fruit. This may get him to think, or get him to walk away. either way, Pray ALOT for God to get into his soul and confront him with the Holy Spirit.

what not to do part 2.

1. Tell him he is saved, now he must do all these religious things, or he may lose his salvation
2. Put him under law. saying if he does not become sinless, he will lose his salvation.
3. Tell him God did his part. now we must do our part if we want out salvation to endure to the end.

for all these things will change the salvation from grace through faith, to faith plus works. and this gospel will nto save anyone. .

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Forgive me Raul

But as you continually state that Christians must be doers, can you tell me what works/deeds you specifically do that you feel most other Christians do not do? Deeds/works that set you apart from most of Christendom
And also what has been the fruit in your life of you laying your life on the altar?
And as you believe most Christians are licentious, what sins do you believe they are committing that you are not?

I don't feel bland statements are that helpful, can you give me practical answers concerning your own life based on the above questions, as to where you feel you succeed and others fail
Thanks

If ya notice, he will not respond to anything I say, because I confronted him with the same questions, and he did not like it.

if ya read his post. It is all about the Calvin vs arminian issue. he is to the point he will not agree to anything calvin teaches, because he would have to admit calvin must have some truth in him. I hope he answers you, I would like to know myself, and think you are on the right track. Keep up the good work.

 

[mark54]

If ya notice, he will not respond to anything I say, because I confronted him with the same questions, and he did not like it.

if ya read his post. It is all about the Calvin vs arminian issue. he is to the point he will not agree to anything calvin teaches, because he would have to admit calvin must have some truth in him. I hope he answers you, I would like to know myself, and think you are on the right track. Keep up the good work.

Hi EG
I put this up on another thread, it may interest you.

You have to understand the mindeset of a certain branch of Christianity
They fully accept that when you turn to Christ the slate is wiped clean, you stand utterly forgiven, cleansed of your sin(though from Skinski's writing I am not sure if he actually even believes that)
The problem is, if you don't remain in this sinless(or pure) state you are in danger of God casting you out
Some churches will give you a certain amount of time to shape up, attain to a certain level of purity/holiness/perfection, others excpect it immediately.
Every time you slip, or fail to remain in rhis pure undefiled state you are hit with guilt and shame, and you are hit hard. You panic, fear that you are no longer pure enough for God, and he will cast you out. You desperately cry out for fogiveness and start over again striving to remain in a sinless and totally pure state

Though they won't admit it, it is a gospel of saved by faith kept by works, your own works, which are dependant on your own strivings and effort. This Gospel leads to no lasting peace. You can put on an act in church on Sunday, but that's it., you know deep down its just an act.

But because there are inevitably, even if fleeting times you feel you are in this state of sinless perfection due to yor efforts, you hurl the stones at others, you demand of them absolute purity, closing your eyes to the times you so often fail yourself to achieve it
And as it is a Gospel of works, pride is inevitable, and demands are made that the person who is making them does not even try to attain to themselves
The are single mindily focused on one issue, all else is immeterial, no works are required in heloping others for example, just preach the word of God according to your beliefs, and endlessly strive(and at times fail) to achieve sinless perfection. It is a torurtured soul who follows its path

It is a Gospel of works/personal goodness according to human effort. Though countless scriptures will be produced to support what they strive to attain for

problem is, it is having much of the literal letter, without a true understanding of the heart of what that letter contains

 

[psychomom]

I must have been foolishness personified (and yes, 'tis true, I am a fool)
all my life to have believed the Word of God when He says He will keep me.

I just read His Word and took it at face value.
Like a child, I believed the Father would make me like the Son.
And my experience has borne that out, He is, indeed, changing me,
and He is killing the flesh a bit more all the time.
He leads me to His Word,
and He causes me to walk in His way
and I have no reason whatever to doubt He will be faithful to
what He has promised.

Do I have 'good works' to show?
Only God knows.
If I do, it's only to His great glory,
as He is the One Who made them possible,
and they are done, not by me, but by Him working through me.

And, Ariel, thank you for quoting Jude 1:24, one of the greatest consolations of my heart. ♥

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The fruit of my life has been a changed life, sincere christian conversion..all things. I am a better employee, a better neighbor..a better son, a better brother..someone who hates sin and seeks to live a life that pleases God, with God's help, aka his Holy spirit helping me each day. So, whats the problem again? What other things i have to prove to you,and explain to you? I can only say God has met me, and changed my life. What more do you want?
what more?
Its not that I succeed more than you, so do not get it twisted. You too can have this, and why should you not.

will wait for marks response. But I just pointed out some things.

He continues to say this as if we have not done this ourselves. or as if we do not want this. I am sure mark, as well as all the other brothers and sisters of Christ I know hear have done this also. So why this guy seems to think we have not done this or are not seeking this or have not already arrived to this conclusion is beyond me. Actually I do know. Because he has no clue what we believe, he is adamant we teach and believe a licentious gospel. And he can not admit even the tiniest bit that he may be wrong. Thus his comments are based on his belief, not based on fact!

I am simply saying, when you say faith with works is works based or trying to win the rat race, well then You must not like james 2 in the Bible. I did not write that, what did i say which was bland? You merely want to play games with words and be pseudo philosophical. Just believing? The demons do that, did that help them? Will that help them? Where are the demons that believe? Get my point? Walk with God. Why are you acting like you do not understand. Camina con Dios. There its in spanish. Maybe you understand that.
I never said most christians are licentious. Do not lie, I never said that. I said, some are..do you disagree that some are not?
Many are..I never said all are. But those who appeal only to grace that does not require a response(repentance) run the most risk of being licentious.

I would disagree here, There are no licentious Christians. They are christian in name only. they have not repented. thus they did not have faith. thus they were never saved.

If you fail, chances are you wanted to fail..you did not realize God has something better for you..did not want the help, wanted your sin and your way more than God..or simply did not ask God to help you.

Which is why your not saved to begin with. But no, You can;t come to this knowledge, you think we just use it as an excuse.

I know you can read..since you're good with word games. Stop the word games. Read what i read, stop twisting what i said.

in other words, do as he says, not how he does, it is ok for him to twist our words. But not ok for us to ask and confront him on issues.

I never ever said all other christians are licentious. Some are..many here seem to be or be for that,or simply hate those who believe we can live for God as Christ followers.

And here is his coin phrase. we HATE people who try to live for God. Another lie. Because he is doing what he claims we are doing, and not reading anything we say.

We do not hate people who try to live for God, We hate the GOSPEL which teaches we must do this to be saved. Not that we do it BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, A HUGE DIFFERENCE!

So, if you want to just believe, as some do(i said some, stop your accusations)
then you can freely choose, after all I believe in free choice.
Or maybe you were predestined,as some say, to be an 'easy believer'..though i say that is not the case.

there is no easy believer Gospel..

It is no gospel at all. it is no more a gospel than a gospel which says you can lose salvation if you do not work hard enough to maintain it.

I don't know about anyone else. But I am SICK of you claiming we teach easy believism. It is one thing for you to ignore my because of your hypocracy, when you do the same thing to me you claim I do to you. But if you think I will not openly confront you, You better think again!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG
I put this up on another thread, it may interest you.

You have to understand the mindeset of a certain branch of Christianity
They fully accept that when you turn to Christ the slate is wiped clean, you stand utterly forgiven, cleansed of your sin(though from Skinski's writing I am not sure if he actually even believes that)

I think he does, but I may be wrong. He just thinks from this point on your on your own, Christs death does not help you after that point.

The problem is, if you don't remain in this sinless(or pure) state you are in danger of God casting you out
Some churches will give you a certain amount of time to shape up, attain to a certain level of purity/holiness/perfection, others excpect it immediately.
Every time you slip, or fail to remain in rhis pure undefiled state you are hit with guilt and shame, and you are hit hard. You panic, fear that you are no longer pure enough for God, and he will cast you out. You desperately cry out for fogiveness and start over again striving to remain in a sinless and totally pure state

Yes, They forgot about discipleship. How long did it Take jesus to disciple 12 men before they finally understood things, and they walked with him.. He discipled them in love, not shame. He is our example. and how we should disciple others. This is where the church is lacking. even many bible believing churches who I know bring people to God in a real way are lacking in this.

Though they won't admit it, it is a gospel of saved by faith kept by works, your own works, which are dependant on your own strivings and effort. This Gospel leads to no lasting peace. You can put on an act in church on Sunday, but that's it., you know deep down its just an act.

But because there are inevitably, even if fleeting times you feel you are in this state of sinless perfection due to yor efforts, you hurl the stones at others, you demand of them absolute purity, closing your eyes to the times you so often fail yourself to achieve it
And as it is a Gospel of works, pride is inevitable, and demands are made that the person who is making them does not even try to attain to themselves
The are single mindily focused on one issue, all else is immeterial, no works are required in heloping others for example, just preach the word of God according to your beliefs, and endlessly strive(and at times fail) to achieve sinless perfection. It is a torurtured soul who follows its path

It is a Gospel of works/personal goodness according to human effort. Though countless scriptures will be produced to support what they strive to attain for

problem is, it is having much of the literal letter, without a true understanding of the heart of what that letter contains

the problem is it has been taught since Adam and eve first failed. And will continue to be taught until the end. yet we still fall under the same traps satan sets for us. When will we ever learn?

 

[homwardbound]

Tie all that in to the topic of eternal security using bible verses. Or continue showing you have no idea what you are talking about. The choice is yours...

Grandpa, I see it this way those that want to know God start out in belief and God who knows the motive behind the belief will reveal truth to the ones that God knows actually do believe and are not playing church or desire to take advantage of such a great salvation. And God will cause in that person to be a doer of the law of liberty a lover of truth and God through the finished work of his Son Jesus Christ the author and finisher of one's faith in him. We are not to judge another man's servant for God has received him, who is able to make him stand, why that would be God not me you, you or even you. Tell me Grandpa I see you do believe, and I see that you believe the truth will set you free so the ? is are you free and if you are not then there might be error in your truth only you know the answer to this, and the same goes for me and anyone else reading here'
Love you all unconditionally as God does while we were (past tense) yet sinners Christ died for us to take away sin, so that when we come to belief we will in response see that it is in Christ taken away and then come to newness of life forsaking sin (die to flesh) trusting God the Father to teach us how ths is done and this is taught and done in the Holy Ghost

 

[homwardbound]

I must have been foolishness personified (and yes, 'tis true, I am a fool)
all my life to have believed the Word of God when He says He will keep me.

I just read His Word and took it at face value.
Like a child, I believed the Father would make me like the Son.
And my experience has borne that out, He is, indeed, changing me,
and He is killing the flesh a bit more all the time.
He leads me to His Word,
and He causes me to walk in His way
and I have no reason whatever to doubt He will be faithful to
what He has promised.

Do I have 'good works' to show?
Only God knows.
If I do, it's only to His great glory,
as He is the One Who made them possible,
and they are done, not by me, but by Him working through me.

And, Ariel, thank you for quoting Jude 1:24, one of the greatest consolations of my heart. ♥

Keep on keeping on yes you, i Have no converts God has them all through you,me. I have no righteouseness and never will. Oh wait a minute yes I do but it is not mine it is God the Father all I am is a partaker in his righteousness thank you Father for killing my flesh where sin has been condemned to through your Son Jesus. So I put on your righteousness having none of my own.

 

[Enow]

Once saved always saved to those who have truely repented and come to Christ in faith is security based on the promises of Christ and the father, based solely on his sons death.

OSAS to those who have not repented. but merely believe (as those James spoke of) is a false security, because they think they are ok, when they have failed to repent. and are still living in sin.

Feel free to explain verse 29 below in context to Paul's message in Romans 11th chapter as not opposing your posted quote.

Romans 11:[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [SUP]28 [/SUP]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [SUP]31 [/SUP]Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [SUP]33 [/SUP]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [SUP]34 [/SUP]For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? [SUP]35 [/SUP]Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? [SUP]36 [/SUP]For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I know that there is a call to repent elsewhere in scripture, but I believe at the point of salvation, the only repentance that is to be had for salvation to occur is repenting from unbelief which is why salvation is centered on believing in Him.

If you consider all the sins that a potential convert is to repent of in order to be saved, then the gospel message cannot be that simple. They would have to instruct them of everything that is sin for them to repent of for your quote to be realized as "truly repented" in order to be saved.

This is why Jesus commanded His disciples to make disciples of other believers by teaching all He has taught them and so verse 29 is true in that message that the only repentance required for salvation is from unbelief.

By having received Christ Jesus is why believers were exhorted to walk in Him to be His disciples to bear fruit and that their joy may be full as they walk in fellowship with God through Jesus Christ... a much closer walk than Enoch had with God. This is not about salvation as it is about living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ now becaise we have been bought with a price and sealed as His as our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and thus we are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

So working for one's salvation is akin to denying Him of our rest in Him.

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world... [SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. [SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Believers need to repent from not believing in OSAS, and yet believers need to be made aware that because they are His, God will judge them by what they build on that foundation and so we are to look to Jesus as our Good Shepherd & not just as our Saviour so that our joy may e full and bear fruit as His disciples in being a witness of Him in seeking His glory in the world.

 

[homwardbound]

will wait for marks response. But I just pointed out some things.

He continues to say this as if we have not done this ourselves. or as if we do not want this. I am sure mark, as well as all the other brothers and sisters of Christ I know hear have done this also. So why this guy seems to think we have not done this or are not seeking this or have not already arrived to this conclusion is beyond me. Actually I do know. Because he has no clue what we believe, he is adamant we teach and believe a licentious gospel. And he can not admit even the tiniest bit that he may be wrong. Thus his comments are based on his belief, not based on fact!




I would disagree here, There are no licentious Christians. They are christian in name only. they have not repented. thus they did not have faith. thus they were never saved.




Which is why your not saved to begin with. But no, You can;t come to this knowledge, you think we just use it as an excuse.


in other words, do as he says, not how he does, it is ok for him to twist our words. But not ok for us to ask and confront him on issues.


And here is his coin phrase. we HATE people who try to live for God. Another lie. Because he is doing what he claims we are doing, and not reading anything we say.

We do not hate people who try to live for God, We hate the GOSPEL which teaches we must do this to be saved. Not that we do it BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, A HUGE DIFFERENCE!



there is no easy believer Gospel..

It is no gospel at all. it is no more a gospel than a gospel which says you can lose salvation if you do not work hard enough to maintain it.

I don't know about anyone else. But I am SICK of you claiming we teach easy believism. It is one thing for you to ignore my because of your hypocracy, when you do the same thing to me you claim I do to you. But if you think I will not openly confront you, You better think again!

Sounds to me as if flesh here has taken over?

 

[Geometar]

Can anyone explain me,how someone can be today saved and tomorrow to lose that Salvation?I just can imagine how an early Church Fathers whould consider this question,i believe they would laugh in first time...

 

[psychomom]

Is God in the regenerating business, or degenerating business?

Oh, thank you, Bookends.
That made me laugh.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Feel free to explain verse 29 below in context to Paul's message in Romans 11th chapter as not opposing your posted quote.

Romans 11:[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? [SUP]25 [/SUP]For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: [SUP]27 [/SUP]For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. [SUP]28 [/SUP]As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. [SUP]29 [/SUP]For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. [SUP]30 [/SUP]For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: [SUP]31 [/SUP]Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. [SUP]33 [/SUP]O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [SUP]34 [/SUP]For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? [SUP]35 [/SUP]Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? [SUP]36 [/SUP]For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

I know that there is a call to repent elsewhere in scripture, but I believe at the point of salvation, the only repentance that is to be had for salvation to occur is repenting from unbelief which is why salvation is centered on believing in Him.

First off. the repentance you spoke of in this passage is not our repentance but God. It is literally saying the gifts and calling of God (they themselves) are without repentance, (in other words, God will not change his mind, he will keep his promise)

If you consider all the sins that a potential convert is to repent of in order to be saved, then the gospel message cannot be that simple. They would have to instruct them of everything that is sin for them to repent of for your quote to be realized as "truly repented" in order to be saved.

Ah but this is a problem. How can we ever know every sin we commit to fully repent of them? I disagree here. We know sin is sin, in fact Romans 1 states we know the things are wrong. we hide them in our hearts. So I do not believe we have to repent of every little sin we have, but of the fact we ARE SINNERS, and we ARE LOST without hope (where as before we denied this, we could save ourselves. we did not need saved or whatever we thought) That God is not our enemy but is our creator who loves us and calls us to him based on His work and his work alone (again, this goes against our flesh nature to believe, so we must change our mind of these things) and truely trust him and him alone, and not self.

I hope this makes sense. and even then, you are right, it is hard. That is why so few do it. and why only a few enter the straight gate, we want to deny we need saved, Deny we can;t help ourself. make our own gospel. and our own God. and in turn, we make the God who created us into this self fabricated God which does not exist but in our minds.

This is why Jesus commanded His disciples to make disciples of other believers by teaching all He has taught them and so verse 29 is true in that message that the only repentance required for salvation is from unbelief.

this I could agree with.

By having received Christ Jesus is why believers were exhorted to walk in Him to be His disciples to bear fruit and that their joy may be full as they walk in fellowship with God through Jesus Christ... a much closer walk than Enoch had with God. This is not about salvation as it is about living that reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ now becaise we have been bought with a price and sealed as His as our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, and thus we are the children of God by faith in Jesus Christ.

So working for one's salvation is akin to denying Him of our rest in Him.

Amen!!

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world... [SUP]7 [/SUP]Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. [SUP]8 [/SUP]For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. [SUP]9 [/SUP]There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Believers need to repent from not believing in OSAS, and yet believers need to be made aware that because they are His, God will judge them by what they build on that foundation and so we are to look to Jesus as our Good Shepherd & not just as our Saviour so that our joy may e full and bear fruit as His disciples in being a witness of Him in seeking His glory in the world.

I agree. Sin is anything done is self with self motivation. the licentious and works based Gospels all stem from this issue. Which is why they need to repent, and come to god, so they to can be saved. if they keep on the path they are going on, they will be upset when it comes to judgment day, when God says depart for I NEVER KNEW YOU.