Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

[CDavid]

The Prodigal Son hadn't rejected his father though had he. He simply did what a lot of young people do.

By doing his own thing, the prodigal son rejected his fathers will; there by rejecting the father. In doing so he got lost; that is to say he didn't know where he was going, and his father didn't know of his whereabouts. His relationship to his father was dead. The prodigal son was so lost, he wound up living with pigs. Now, for a Jew boy to find himself living with pigs, he had to be really lost.

Before Jesus told the Prodigal Son story, He was asked what heaven would be like. Jesus told this story to let us know that, in heaven,there will be many children of God, who will got lost then turn away from sin, and return begging the father to be a lowly servant, as did the prodigal son. The Father, who loves us more than any earthly father, will receive all His prodigal children, who repent and desire to serve. We must remember though; first comes repentance then comes salvation.

I'm an old Navy man. As long as I'm on board the ship I'm safe. If I fall overboard in a storm, and swim in the wrong direction I'm lost. Before I can be saved, I must turn around (repent) and swim the right direction. If I don't I'm a dead man.

 

[PS]

By doing his own thing, the prodigal son rejected his fathers will; there by rejecting the father. In doing so he got lost; that is to say he didn't know where he was going, and his father didn't know of his whereabouts. His relationship to his father was dead. The prodigal son was so lost, he wound up living with pigs. Now, for a Jew boy to find himself living with pigs, he had to be really lost.

Before Jesus told the Prodigal Son story, He was asked what heaven would be like. Jesus told this story to let us know that, in heaven,there will be many children of God, who will got lost then turn away from sin, and return begging the father to be a lowly servant, as did the prodigal son. The Father, who loves us more than any earthly father, will receive all His prodigal children, who repent and desire to serve. We must remember though; first comes repentance then comes salvation.

I'm an old Navy man. As long as I'm on board the ship I'm safe. If I fall overboard in a storm, and swim in the wrong direction I'm lost. Before I can be saved, I must turn around (repent) and swim the right direction. If I don't I'm a dead man.

I don't agree the Prodigal had rejected his father and the fact he returned proves he hadn't. If you want to believe different from the evidence then go ahead but I'm having nothing to do with it.

 

[endurance]

You just repeated what I said,only with different words.....re-read....."by"..."though",same meaning.

 

[CDavid]

I don't agree the Prodigal had rejected his father and the fact he returned proves he hadn't. If you want to believe different from the evidence then go ahead but I'm having nothing to do with it.

Please share the facts. As a novice, I am always in need of correction.

 

[PS]

Please share the facts. As a novice, I am always in need of correction.

In Luke 15 we read of three parables given by Jesus, the lost sheep, the lost coin and lost son. If you want to say the prodigal son rejected his father you will have to say the sheep rejected the shepherd and the coin deliberately got itself lost.

That isn't the point of the three parables which was how much our heavenly Father loves us and cares for us even to the extent of giving his son his inheritance before he was entitled to it.

So firstly we can be assured our heavenly father will come seeking the lost.

Secondly We can be assured of our saviours love and care even when we are gone from him.

Thirdly the sons part in all of this doesn't even enter into it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Have you got a reference for that?

Because if God remains faithful He is not denying himself.

As you say we can be faithless and we can deny God but the fault is with us and not with God.

2 tim 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

as for denying him, Again, if we deny him, we would reject him, and thus be against him, which would make us an antichrist. Again, John said those people never were saved. A child of God would never deny Christ and say he does not exist, or did not do what he claimed to have done. A person who has never seen Christ, but only in mere belief played the game, but never tasted the love and grace of God. Now that is a different story.

If a Child of God can't sin (see also John) then how can a child born of God all of a sudden deny him and say he is not real? it doe snot make sense.

 

[PS]

2 tim 2:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

as for denying him, Again, if we deny him, we would reject him, and thus be against him, which would make us an antichrist. Again, John said those people never were saved. A child of God would never deny Christ and say he does not exist, or did not do what he claimed to have done. A person who has never seen Christ, but only in mere belief played the game, but never tasted the love and grace of God. Now that is a different story.

If a Child of God can't sin (see also John) then how can a child born of God all of a sudden deny him and say he is not real? it doe snot make sense.

I think the ISV translation is clearer. This is what it says:- "Our faith may fail, his never wanes—That's who he is, he cannot change!"

Our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God and 2 Timothy 2:13 is telling us that even though our faith may fail, His faith in us never changes. God is always faithful, He is unchanging. God is our Rock and our Salvation so let's praise and thank Him for His unchanging faith.

This is the normal Christian walk, but not everyone walks the same path as us. I used to talk to atheists a lot, they have never believe in God and they reject him totally which means they are anti-Christ but should they, through the preaching of the Gospel come to believe in Christ, and then at a later date reject Him a second time, then they have committed apostasy.
In Hebrews 6:4 we read : -

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

I hope this helps explain it a bit better.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the ISV translation is clearer. This is what it says:- "Our faith may fail, his never wanes—That's who he is, he cannot change!"

Our righteousness is as filthy rags in the sight of God and 2 Timothy 2:13 is telling us that even though our faith may fail, His faith in us never changes. God is always faithful, He is unchanging. God is our Rock and our Salvation so let's praise and thank Him for His unchanging faith.

amen and amen

This is the normal Christian walk, but not everyone walks the same path as us. I used to talk to atheists a lot, they have never believe in God and they reject him totally which means they are anti-Christ but should they, through the preaching of the Gospel come to believe in Christ, and then at a later date reject Him a second time, then they have committed apostasy.

1. They would not do this. anymore than you would
2. John says they were never saved, why you continue to ignore this boggles my mind
3. As i said, John said we can not sin, nor could they if they truly were saved and born of God. so if we can't sin how could we fall away?

In Hebrews 6:4 we read : -

“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

I hope this helps explain it a bit better.

No it does not. Heb 4 is speaking to jews, who were trying to Go back to the sacrificial system. the sacrifical system states sin can cause us to fall away. and a new sacrifice of atonement has to be redone.

The author is making a statement of fact. If we could fall away (which we can't) it would be impossible to renew us, because if the sacrifice of Christ was no sufficient for any particular sin, we have no hope. Saying we can fall away and need to return to law puts christ to open shame..

read the verses following that passage, about near to being cursed.. yet being saved.

 

[homwardbound]

You seem to be making my point. What greater sin could we commit than to deny Christ. Yet, Peter was forgiven, and went on to become one of the greatest ministers For Christ and the Church. This could not have happened without his repentance. Peter followed the lesson he learned from the story of the prodigal son. For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. When Peter turned away from his denial, he was forgiven. He was no longer lost, at this point.

David, Is not the greater sin Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost? I really do not see it as a sin untilwhen one actually chooses belief or stays an unbeliever, For this sin when it becomes a sin will never be forgiven, And is it not the Holy Ghost's job today to lead us and reach out through us the believers unto the unbelievers with such words of wisdom that none of the opponents (unbelevers) are able to reply?

 

[homwardbound]

Please share the facts. As a novice, I am always in need of correction.

I think the most important part is the prodical Son turned around, he learned and I am seeing unless we want to know God it would take wanting to serve first to find out truth about God. Yet also another ploy here why did he turn around because he had lost all inheritance and would be the only place to go, could this be wrong motive. It really does not matter for God knows who belong to them or will. but this is where one can get mixed up between flesh and Spirit of God

 

[homwardbound]

amen and amen



1.
No it does not. Heb 4 is speaking to jews, who were trying to Go back to the sacrificial system. the sacrifical system states sin can cause us to fall away. and a new sacrifice of atonement has to be redone.

The author is making a statement of fact. If we could fall away (which we can't) it would be impossible to renew us, because if the sacrifice of Christ was no sufficient for any particular sin, we have no hope. Saying we can fall away and need to return to law puts christ to open shame..

read the verses following that passage, about near to being cursed.. yet being saved.

Thanks Eternallygrateful for that explanation, makes sense I always read Hebrews 6:1-6 starting at Hebrews 5:11 through 6:6 that helped me to leave the milk of the word many years ago at start, I read in there lets go on to the meat if GOD will permit, so I prayed that prayer and what a journey with a lot of tragedies along the way, But God is faithful

 

[rauleetoe]

What? You don't like what I said about eternal security being the FIRST step in spirituality?

John 3:3-7
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


You don't have to believe it. I just took exception to what you said about people who believe OSAS. I should have just let it roll off my back...

Born again also involves a lifestyle change..do not talk the talk without walking the walk. I have seen those who profess to be Christ followers..well, you either have fruit that confirms this, or..well..then we know you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

No one said you must not be born again, are you advocating for a just believe gospel aka easy believism? Is this what you are implying is all one must do..believe..and still you can get away with as much as you want and still be called a Christian. I am trying to understand your position..it seems to me that this may be the direction that you are going.

 

[rauleetoe]

Those are not the fault of the doctrine, but of the teachers.

The remedy is not throwing out a doctrine because it is misrepresented.

The remedy is teaching it correctly.

How do you teach 'once saved always saved' correctly? Do you tell them to keep on sinning? Do you tell them to ONLY appeal to grace?(mind you this trend I have seen in charismatic circles,baptist circles,and obviously reform theology circles)

Do you just say..just keep on sinning, because God has got you?
OSAS makes sin not a big deal, in one breath you speak about sin and how we need Christ, but in the next breath one is allowed and actually given permission to just live however because according to some, 'You cannot live for God' so that is what grace is for..
How is this proper teaching?
I do recall in hebrews 6:4-6
-[SUP]4[/SUP] Because it’s impossible to restore people to changed hearts and lives who turn away once they have seen the light, tasted the heavenly gift, become partners with the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5[/SUP] and tasted God’s good word and the powers of the coming age. [SUP]6[/SUP] They are crucifying God’s Son all over again and exposing him to public shame.
ceb
That if one after being in God blatantly returns to a life of sin, that there is no more hope for such a person.
That is the problem with this teaching you adhere to, it spits in the face of a Holy God and is a message that teaches that Christians can have no reverence for a Holy God,and that God is still pleased with them.

 

[CDavid]

In Luke 15 we read of three parables given by Jesus, the lost sheep, the lost coin and lost son. If you want to say the prodigal son rejected his father you will have to say the sheep rejected the shepherd and the coin deliberately got itself lost.

That isn't the point of the three parables which was how much our heavenly Father loves us and cares for us even to the extent of giving his son his inheritance before he was entitled to it.

So firstly we can be assured our heavenly father will come seeking the lost.

Secondly We can be assured of our saviours love and care even when we are gone from him.

Thirdly the sons part in all of this doesn't even enter into it.

I agree with you on your first and second assertions, but the sons free will choice to reject his fathers will; thereby rejecting the father, is part of the story in fullness of the message that Jesus is teaching. Because the son rejected the fathers will, he lost his inheritance, which is what will happen to us if we reject the Fathers will, that we accept His Son Jesus as Lord and savior; We will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Then there is the message that no matter how far the son fell away from the father, even though he got totally lost; so much that the father considered him dead, the son could still find love and forgiveness from the father, through repentance. The same is true for Christians. We may fall so far away from God, by rejecting Him and His will, that we can get so lost in the pleasures of this world, that God the Father considers us dead.And, for all practical purposes we would be dead in sin at that point. But, if we turn away (repent)and submit to the service or our Lord Jesus, God the Father is faithful to forgive, and will accept us into His loving arms, as did the father of the prodigal son. There is much to be learned from each parable that our Savior used. Most of them contain multiple lessons, which we must apply to our lives as Christians.

 

[CDavid]

Let's not starting infighting on nickle dime issues. We never know when our time is up. I know all about blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. That is not relevent to the meat of the topic. So, my statement is valid; Rejection of Jesus will put you in Hell. Had Peter continued in his denial of Jesus, he would have been lost for eternity.

 

[starfield]

Just one act of disobedience led to Adam and Eve's spiritual death. Eternal security proponents say that believers cannot die spiritually over any sin, which is the same lie Satan told Eve. Genesis 3:3-4 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. [4] And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Genesis 7:1, 7-10
1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
If Noah refused to build the ark, would he have been saved? What if he jumped out of the ark would he have still been saved? No. Simple obedience was all that was necessary to be kept safe during the flood. Likewise, abiding in Christ, making our election sure, diligence in the faith, and obedience to God guarantees eternal salvation (Hebrews 5:9).

King David did not have to commit adultery and murder habitually before becoming an adulterer and murderer. Just one act made him an adulterer and murderer and brought him under guilt and condemnation. Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Eternal security doctrine says "believers who do such things shall inherit the kingdom of God but lose rewards", so if David did not repent he will still inherit the kingdom but lose rewards for his sins. This doctrine completely redefines the gospel message in which one’s justification is disconnected from their conduct thus grace has been reduced to a get-out-of-hell free ticket plus a license to sin, and obedience to God by His grace is regarded as works salvation. On the contrary, the true grace of God teaches us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world (Titus 2:12).

When the prodigal son was living riotously and wandering in the pigsty he was spiritually dead. However, eternal security proponents turn a blind eye to this passage and say that he was still alive in the pigsty, saved whilst in captivity of sin: Luke 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Nowhere in the bible does it say believers can live like the world and remain in a justified state. James said that one who is conforming to worldliness is committing spiritual adultery (unfaithfulness) and is an enemy of God. Enemies of God will not spend eternity with Him, but with their master, the devil, who is also an enemy of God. James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

 

[Powemm]

It is written: ----->> IT IS FINISHED !

what needed to be done has already been done for you... there is nothing anyone can do about it...
"he died on the cross , what has been done, can NOT be undone ...
the lie the enemy wants Gods creation to believe , is that it can be ... God says it can't !! IT IS FINISHED!

 

[rauleetoe]

It is written: ----->> IT IS FINISHED !

what needed to be done has already been done for you... there is nothing anyone can do about it...
"he died on the cross , what has been done, can NOT be undone ...
the lie the enemy wants Gods creation to believe , is that it can be ... God says it can't !! IT IS FINISHED!

But we must be carefull that we do not deceive ourselves into missing out on such a great Salvation!
Yes, we should appeal to grace, but what then? Simply believe?! Heavens no! You turn away from your old life, you turn towards Christ(with his help,the Holy Spirit leading you) and you die to self!
Yes, Grace is there, we are here even posting because of grace. But we must respond to grace with repentance. If we are to be born again, what are we born into? A new life, all things have become new, 2 corinthians 5:17, if any man be 'in Christ' so, if we are 'in Christ' and we put 'on Christ' Romans 13:14, then we will walk 'with Christ'! Right?
Grace is never an excuse to not walk with him, it was not then..it is not now.

 

[Grandpa]

Born again also involves a lifestyle change..do not talk the talk without walking the walk. I have seen those who profess to be Christ followers..well, you either have fruit that confirms this, or..well..then we know you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

No one said you must not be born again, are you advocating for a just believe gospel aka easy believism? Is this what you are implying is all one must do..believe..and still you can get away with as much as you want and still be called a Christian. I am trying to understand your position..it seems to me that this may be the direction that you are going.

You don't really have any idea what you are talking about do you? And ignorance is really easy to forgive... See, already done!

 

[mark54]

Hi Raul

Genuine questions

You contniually state we must be doers of the word/have deeds, otherwise our faith is dead, and you believe most of the churches fail in this
Can you tell me what deeds/works you do that you feel most others are lacking in?

And what sins you believe you abstain from that most others who go to church partake in. I am just genuinely trying to understand where you believe people who go to church/calvanists fail where you are succeeding
Thanks