Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

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A

Abiding

Guest
#261
#261
PS it can be proven with scripture that God can give power, revelation, etc to the unsaved.
I cant find any scripture that says he ever was saved.

[h=3]John 13:6-11[/h]
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean

[h=3]John 6:64[/h]
[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.




 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#262
Jan 11, 2013
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#262
Abiding said:
PS it can be proven with scripture that God can give power, revelation, etc to the unsaved.
I cant find any scripture that says he ever was saved.

John 13:6-11


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean

John 6:64


[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
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Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If there was any among them who did not believe it would have been doubting Thomas, it's down to you to show that Judas did not believe. I think Judas believed right up to the end when the full import of what he had done hit him. This imo is why he hanged himself after he tried to return the money.

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A

Abiding

Guest
#263
#263
PS said:
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If there was any among them who did not believe it would have been doubting Thomas, it's down to you to show that Judas did not believe. I think Judas believed right up to the end when the full import of what he had done hit him. This imo is why he hanged himself after he tried to return the money.

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But look at the order...judas was called...knowing he would transgress....before he betrayed Jesus
Jesus said all the disciples were clean but there feet, except judas..knowing where his heart was
he was never cleansed...then he betrayed Jesus and went to his own place. no dance steps needed.

If you believed predestination was from Gods foreknowing whether a person would choose or not
id use this as a proof text.

As a loose your salvation text...this doesnt hold any weight.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#264
Jan 11, 2013
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#264
Geometar said:
What is OSAS and who are Calvinists?Sorry,i don't know them.
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John Calvin believed some good things but where a lot of people fall out with him is his teaching on Predestination and the Elect. He believed that before the world began God predestined some people for eternal salvation, these are the Elect, and those who were not the Elect would suffer everlasting damnation.

The Elect did not have to do anything like "seek the Lord" "Repent" or "be baptised" and if you were not "Chosen" you are condemned to Hell. The Elect could never fall from Grace.

OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved and like the Calvinists they believe they can never fall from Grace.

I don't think "Works" come into it at all?

.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#265
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#265
Abiding said:
But look at the order...judas was called...knowing he would transgress....before he betrayed Jesus
Jesus said all the disciples were clean but there feet, except judas..knowing where his heart was
he was never cleansed...then he betrayed Jesus and went to his own place. no dance steps needed.

If you believed predestination was from Gods foreknowing whether a person would choose or not
id use this as a proof text.

As a loose your salvation text...this doesnt hold any weight.
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I have no doubt Jesus knew Judas would betray him, that was part of the divine plan, but as to whether Judas believed or not is for the individual to make up their own mind. As we know those who were not among them, departed but Judas was part of the inner circle till the end. I feel you need to offer evidence of unbelief rather than base it on 'gut feeling'. Even the devils believe and Judas was described as a devil and there is the twist. His 'devilish' action saved humanity. This is how our wonder working God uses people but I have no doubt in my mind that Judas believed the same as the fallen angel believed.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#266
#266
PS said:
I have no doubt Jesus knew Judas would betray him, that was part of the divine plan, but as to whether Judas believed or not is for the individual to make up their own mind. As we know those who were not among them, departed but Judas was part of the inner circle till the end. I feel you need to offer evidence of unbelief rather than base it on 'gut feeling'. Even the devils believe and Judas was described as a devil and there is the twist. His 'devilish' action saved humanity. This is how our wonder working God uses people but I have no doubt in my mind that Judas believed the same as the fallen angel believed.
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PS i already gave you an knock it out of the park text.

Judas had not been cleansed before the foot washing.
The rest were, he was not saved, before the transgression
talked about in Acts1 etc
 
Geometar

Geometar

Banned
#267
Nov 22, 2012
626
2
0
#267
PS said:
John Calvin believed some good things but where a lot of people fall out with him is his teaching on Predestination and the Elect. He believed that before the world began God predestined some people for eternal salvation, these are the Elect, and those who were not the Elect would suffer everlasting damnation.

The Elect did not have to do anything like "seek the Lord" "Repent" or "be baptised" and if you were not "Chosen" you are condemned to Hell. The Elect could never fall from Grace.

OSAS stands for Once Saved Always Saved and like the Calvinists they believe they can never fall from Grace.

I don't think "Works" come into it at all?

.
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Run from them,there are no Salvation in it.That man had no knowledge about Holy Fathers and Early Church teaching,so he made his own by litteral interpretation of the Bible.
There can be only one Church and one teaching is true.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#268
#268
PS said:
The example of Judas confirms the error of both OSAS and Calvin’s Reformed theology whose argument is that those who turn away from God were never saved.
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No, Actually it supports it. Jesus called Judas the devil. Judas stated quite clearly he never believed. Judas was a thief from time he started walking to the time he hung himself. he was never saved. This supports our theory that people can appear to walk with God on the outside. but inside they are no more children of God than the heathen.

In John 17:12 we read of Jesus speaking to the twelve apostles and he refers to Judas as the one who “perished.” Now Judas could not have “perished” if first he had not been “alive,” that is, an accepted member of the select twelve that Christ had chosen. Therefore, Judas “fell away.”
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Again this is wrong, Jesus said he was lost, that scripture might be fulfilled. He never stated he was alive in him. Again, even in John 6. He said he knew judas did not believe. How can one be saved if they never had faith??

Judas was once in a right relationship with God. He was an apostle, chosen by Christ, and endued with all the miraculous powers that the other apostles possessed.
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Judas was never an apostle. He was a disciple. He was un unbelieving disciple who was a thief. and never was saved.

In Matthew 10:5-8, Jesus was giving instructions to the twelve and he said: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.”

A lost person does not have these powers and cannot “cast out demons.”

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Thanks for your opinion. But that is all it is. Judas was never saved, to believe he was at one time, is to not know him, and call jesus a liar.

John 6:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

As you see here. Jesus knew from the beginning of his ministry who it was who would betray him, and he is placed among those who do not believe, having seen.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#269
Jan 11, 2013
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#269
Geometar said:
Run from them,there are no Salvation in it.That man had no knowledge about Holy Fathers and Early Church teaching,so he made his own by litteral interpretation of the Bible.
There can be only one Church and one teaching is true.
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Don't worry, I was never one of them. :)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#270
#270
Abiding said:
PS it can be proven with scripture that God can give power, revelation, etc to the unsaved.
I cant find any scripture that says he ever was saved.

John 13:6-11


[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean

John 6:64


[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
Click to expand...

Amen brother!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#271
#271
PS said:
Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

If there was any among them who did not believe it would have been doubting Thomas, it's down to you to show that Judas did not believe. I think Judas believed right up to the end when the full import of what he had done hit him. This imo is why he hanged himself after he tried to return the money.

.
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lol. Doubting Thomas was told by God it was great to be him who saw, but even greater to those who do not see. Nice try. But Judas never believed. Again, not once can you find anyplace where it says he believed, every mention of him says he was a non believer, the son of perdition (satan) and the one who would betray.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#272
#272
PS said:
I have no doubt Jesus knew Judas would betray him, that was part of the divine plan, but as to whether Judas believed or not is for the individual to make up their own mind.
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Your right, but we are not left to make up our own mind. Scripture tells us he did not believe. Thus we should trust scripture. and not self. and not twist this to make our gospel of works believable.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#273
#273
Geometar said:
Run from them,there are no Salvation in it.That man had no knowledge about Holy Fathers and Early Church teaching,so he made his own by litteral interpretation of the Bible.
There can be only one Church and one teaching is true.
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no. Run from the churches which state salvation must be earned. and is not a grace gift. For they will lead you to hell.
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#274
Jan 11, 2013
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#274
eternally-gratefull said:
No, Actually it supports it. Jesus called Judas the devil. Judas stated quite clearly he never believed. Judas was a thief from time he started walking to the time he hung himself. he was never saved. This supports our theory that people can appear to walk with God on the outside. but inside they are no more children of God than the heathen.

Again this is wrong, Jesus said he was lost, that scripture might be fulfilled. He never stated he was alive in him. Again, even in John 6. He said he knew judas did not believe. How can one be saved if they never had faith??

Judas was never an apostle. He was a disciple. He was un unbelieving disciple who was a thief. and never was saved.

Thanks for your opinion. But that is all it is. Judas was never saved, to believe he was at one time, is to not know him, and call jesus a liar.

John 6:
[SUP]36 [/SUP]But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

As you see here. Jesus knew from the beginning of his ministry who it was who would betray him, and he is placed among those who do not believe, having seen.
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You are misquoting scripture. Jesus wasn't talking to Judas.

35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Judas was an apostle as well.

Where does Judas say he never believed?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#275
#275
PS said:
You are misquoting scripture. Jesus wasn't talking to Judas.

35Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”
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No. I posted the part which proved he was talking to Judas. Funny how you left that part out. But I guess I should expect it. you guys do it alot!

[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

The one who would betray (judas) was considered one of the "you" who did not believe.

 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#276
Jan 11, 2013
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#276
eternally-gratefull said:
No. I posted the part which proved he was talking to Judas. Funny how you left that part out. But I guess I should expect it. you guys do it alot!

[SUP]64 [/SUP]But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

The one who would betray (judas) was considered one of the "you" who did not believe.
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No. Read the posts.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#277
#277
PS explain Jesus at the foot washing....i cant believe you cant see it clearly...never washed=never saved

then go to john 17: where Jesus said He kept "all" that the Father gave Him...then He says judas was lost,
son of perdition...again this is before the betrayal.

Just saying if you want to disprove OSAS you need better texts....want me to help you?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#278
#278
PS said:
No. Read the posts.

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
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You think the word "and" separates them? he said they did not believe. The thing that separated them and Judas was Judas would betray, that is why the AND was there.

So Jesus saved those who does not believe? He saved those he KNOWS will reject him, He KNOWS will turn from him, and he KNOWS will continue in sin (Judas was a thief from the start. so he continued in sin)

I guess God gets surprised alot.. Poor God. he can not even know people and saved so many by mistake!
 
PS

PS

Senior Member
#279
Jan 11, 2013
5,399
695
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#279
Abiding said:
PS explain Jesus at the foot washing....i cant believe you cant see it clearly...never washed=never saved

then go to john 17: where Jesus said He kept "all" that the Father gave Him...then He says judas was lost,
son of perdition...again this is before the betrayal.

Just saying if you want to disprove OSAS you need better texts....want me to help you?
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John 13:6-11

6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean

John 6:64

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

It simply says Jesus knew who believed and who would betray him.

Proving the error of OSAS is easy. The only reason I posted about Judas was because EG was getting things wrong and he needed to be shown the other side of the coin, so be careful what you say EG.

.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#280
#280
PS said:
John 13:6-11

6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean

John 6:64

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

It simply says Jesus knew who believed and who would betray him.

Proving the error of OSAS is easy.
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Oh it is? then why are having such a hard time doing it? All your doing is showing your opinion. which you have not proven at all!

The only reason I posted about Judas was because EG was getting things wrong and he needed to be shown the other side of the coin, so be careful what you say EG.

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I needed to be shown? You utterly failed. Be carefull what I say? I think you should be the one to be carefull. Your stating stuff based on opinion. not fact. We have proven Judas never believed or was ever saved.

Again. Did God make such a major mistake that he saved someone he KNEW was going to continue a life of sin (Judas the thief) Knew did not believe (Judas the fake) and knew was going to betray Christ for a few coins (Judas the Betrayer)?

Poor God, he got fooled real good there didn't he??
 
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