Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Put it this way, who on this board is a calvinist?

 

[Aerials1978]

Although I am no Expert when comes to certain denominational doctrines, I just have an issue with the Limited Atonement belief. What does the Bible say? The most referenced verse ever is John3:16. It states the far reaching of Gods salvation to everyone whom believes in the Son shall be saved.

Does God know who will receive this grace and who won’t? Of course! He is God. Does God choose certain people? Yes, scriptures says that God came after us and not the other way around. Will people whom God chose reject his gift? Yes(Judas Iscariot).

When we come to our own understanding and try to place God in a box that allows the Enemy to deceive and divide. “For who knows a persons thoughts except their own sprit within them. In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the sprit of God”

Let God be truth and everyman a Liar.

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

These questions cannot be answered by a simple yes or no, because your question does not designate which Israel you are referring to, whether it be the nation of Israel or Jacob/Israel. If you are referring to Jacob/Israel, then, Yes, they have eternal life because Christ paid for all of their sins upon the cross. The doctrine that Jesus taught is a comforting doctrine in the fact that if you are a part of Jacob/Israel and die suddenly without repenting of a sin you will go to heaven.

Then, from yourview the 12 tribes of Israel all have eternal like and will enter the kingdom of God even is they werved other gods?

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

Although I am no Expert when comes to certain denominational doctrines, I just have an issue with the Limited Atonement belief. What does the Bible say? The most referenced verse ever is John3:16. It states the far reaching of Gods salvation to everyone whom believes in the Son shall be saved.

Does God know who will receive this grace and who won’t? Of course! He is God. Does God choose certain people? Yes, scriptures says that God came after us and not the other way around. Will people whom God chose reject his gift? Yes(Judas Iscariot).

When we come to our own understanding and try to place God in a box that allows the Enemy to deceive and divide. “For who knows a persons thoughts except their own sprit within them. In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the sprit of God”

Let God be truth and everyman a Liar.

Aerial, the problem is that many thing you need a degree to know the word of God, they do not realize that the Spirit of God is the one that enlightens our eyes with an understanding of the truth of God's word, what he made clear when he first stop. In addition, many that believe in limited atonement they get it from the person who they look up to because of their educational background. The Scriptures is clear that Yeshua died for all, not just some and God does not choose who he allows to enter the kingdom of God and who he wants to cast into eternal damnation. They distorted the word of God with the word Sovereign. Yes, God is sovereign and sovereignty is shown in his mercy and love.

You do not have to say that you are no expert, all you have to say is what the word of God says and John 3:16 is clear, but they deliberately want to be ignorant to the truth of God's word. What you wrote was scriptural, clear without clouds, a child is able to understand you. Yeshua said that one must come to him as children, but many go to him thinking they know all. I commend you for your post and it was all scriptural. They will not give you a truthful respond to John 3:16 or any scriptures you give them because they are stuck on their stubbornness.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

The Lord spoke to many people throughout the Bible who were not believers. The majority of the people Christ preached to were not believers, but they were Jews.

The Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ were born again children of God, and I know that this will shock you, but believing is a product of already being born again and not the cause of being born again. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern the things of the Spirit and thinks they are foolishness. They are not able to believe in spiritual things until after they are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. Even the old testament saints are born again in the same manner as the new testament people are and that is under the guidelines of Eph 2. Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and the people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him? 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. John 12:47, And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. If this is confusing to you, consider that when we are born again, we have the imputed righteousness of Christ within us, and that is why he cannot deny himself. The world of sinners that Christ came to save was the world of God's elect that he paid the adoption price on the cross to adopt God's elect to be God's adopted children.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Then, from yourview the 12 tribes of Israel all have eternal like and will enter the kingdom of God even is they werved other gods?

We are not able to determine who the elect are, for sure, because even the devil can present himself as an angel of light and quote scriptures. King David got himself in trouble with God for trying to number Israel, and Israel suffered greatly. It is a lengthy event that is portrayed in 1 Chronicles 21. If all of the twelve tribes are a part of Jacob/Israel, then, Yes, they will enter heaven. I believe "the kingdom of God" has reference to Christ's church, which he is the king and bride of. An example, in this day and time, of God's children worshiping other Gods; When any of God's children buy themselves a brand new sports car and spend all day on a Sunday polishing it up to show it off, That car becomes another God to them that they worship. There are many ways that a child of God can worship other Gods.

 

[John146]

The Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ were born again children of God, and I know that this will shock you, but believing is a product of already being born again and not the cause of being born again. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern the things of the Spirit and thinks they are foolishness. They are not able to believe in spiritual things until after they are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. Even the old testament saints are born again in the same manner as the new testament people are and that is under the guidelines of Eph 2. Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and the people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him? 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. John 12:47, And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. If this is confusing to you, consider that when we are born again, we have the imputed righteousness of Christ within us, and that is why he cannot deny himself. The world of sinners that Christ came to save was the world of God's elect that he paid the adoption price on the cross to adopt God's elect to be God's adopted children.

According to yo, one can be born again and have no clue of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for sin on the cross. This is insane.

Paul said that Christ came into the world to save sinners...guess who the sinners are? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You appear to write like he he did not died for all and I gave you Scriptures and you did not respond. You cannot answer with a simple yes or no because the only way calvinism be try to prove their distorted view is by writing what they think. Read my post, I was talking about the 12 tribes of Israel.

Tell me directly, are you a calvinist, YES or NO, you need not to explain.

I told you of my conversion story at length and you must have forgotten that I said that I have never read any of Calvin's writings. I even refused to listen to a video that you posted to me about Calvin's writings and told you that my only source of information was the scriptures because I believe that all scriptures must harmonize and that I believe that scripture proves scripture. If you do not remember reading that post, I will look it up and give you the post number, Just let me know. I am sorry that I did not get you the answer about the 12 tribes sooner, but my answer is in post #306. No, I do not claim to be a calvinist. I do not believe in universal atonement. I, honestly, try to respond to all of your questions and comments. I do not mean to be impolite to ask, but, would you mind to list the questions and comments that you think I did not respond to by your post numbers and I would certainly try to give you an answer for them. I do enjoy corresponding with you and am sorry, if I seem to be so dismissive about it. That is not my intention.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

According to yo, one can be born again and have no clue of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for sin on the cross. This is insane.

Paul said that Christ came into the world to save sinners...guess who the sinners are? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Yes, God saw by his foreknowledge that all have sinned (Psalms 53:2-3), but Christ came into the world to save a large amount of those sinners and they are the ones that God choose before the foundation of the world, (Eph 1), the same ones that he regenerates,(Eph 2), the same ones that he gave to his Son to die for on the cross, (John 6:39), the same ones that he says that he will come at the last day and gather his elect and take them home.(Matt 24:31).

 

[Flint321]

Yes, God saw by his foreknowledge that all have sinned (Psalms 53:2-3), but Christ came into the world to save a large amount of those sinners and they are the ones that God choose before the foundation of the world, (Eph 1), the same ones that he regenerates,(Eph 2), the same ones that he gave to his Son to die for on the cross, (John 6:39), the same ones that he says that he will come at the last day and gather his elect and take them home.(Matt 24:31).

That's right and guess what: Everything you said is inline with Acts 16:30-31 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Or is it not?

Just trying to see if you've abandoned your wicked hyper-calvinist ways, have you?

There is no contradiction, the elect are the ones who believe and those who believe, shall be saved!

Embrace them in unity or you will be a hyper-calvinist.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

According to yo, one can be born again and have no clue of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for sin on the cross. This is insane.

Paul said that Christ came into the world to save sinners...guess who the sinners are? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Knowledge of the gospel is not the cause of saving anyone eternally, but is a product and evidence that someone has already been born again, and even many of those that are born again do not have a knowledge of the gospel and stand in need that a preacher should teach them. That was Jesus's purpose of instructing his Apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep (God's children) of the house of Israel (Matt 10:6).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

That's right and guess what: Everything you said is inline with Acts 16:30-31 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Or is it not?

Just trying to see if you've abandoned your wicked hyper-calvinist ways, have you?

There is no contradiction, the elect are the ones who believe and those who believe, shall be saved!

Embrace them in unity or you will be a hyper-calvinist.

I think that I have said this well over 100 times on this forum, but I do not mind to say it again; Salvation, according to Strong's concordance means = "a deliverance". There is an eternal deliverance and there are many deliverances we receive as we sojourn here in this world. Believing in the things of the Spirit, repenting of breaking a spiritual law are products of already having been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and are able to discern the things of the Spirit. They are not the attributes of the natural man who has not been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:14) he thinks the things of the Spirit are foolishness and cannot discern them. There is a deliverance, not eternal, because they already have that, in believing and repenting. This is the deliverance that Paul was offering the jailer and his family. John 10:27-28, My sheep (born again children) hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish. Only his sheep hear him.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

According to yo, one can be born again and have no clue of Christ’s death, burial and resurrection for sin on the cross. This is insane.

Paul said that Christ came into the world to save sinners...guess who the sinners are? For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

So, do you think that all of those godly saints in the old testament are lost eternally?

 

[SUNDOWNSAM]

The Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ were born again children of God, and I know that this will shock you, but believing is a product of already being born again and not the cause of being born again. The natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, cannot discern the things of the Spirit and thinks they are foolishness. They are not able to believe in spiritual things until after they are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2. Even the old testament saints are born again in the same manner as the new testament people are and that is under the guidelines of Eph 2. Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and the people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him? 2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. John 12:47, And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. If this is confusing to you, consider that when we are born again, we have the imputed righteousness of Christ within us, and that is why he cannot deny himself. The world of sinners that Christ came to save was the world of God's elect that he paid the adoption price on the cross to adopt God's elect to be God's adopted children.

-------------

I guess you did not read what I previously posted in one of my post.

Question, if the Jews who did believe that Yeshua were born-again, my did he know what born-again was all about when Yeshua mentioned it to him? If you're going to give me a distorted view do not bother responding.

To fabricate in your mind that believing is a product of already being born again and not the cause of being born again, is show the ignorance in a person, such a blunt statement you made.

We have the righteousness of Yeshua within us because he made us his righteousness on the cross.

Seriously, you are deliberately and ignorantly distorting the truth of of the Scriptures what God made clear when he first spoke or you don't know what you are talking about.

It appears that you enjoy disputing the word of God to prove that God was not clear when he first spoke, but God was clear when he first spoke and according to the Scriptures (God's word) you are not only wrong, but you have distorted the truth of God's word what he made clear when he first spoke.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

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I guess you did not read what I previously posted in one of my post.

Question, if the Jews who did believe that Yeshua were born-again, my did he know what born-again was all about when Yeshua mentioned it to him? If you're going to give me a distorted view do not bother responding.

To fabricate in your mind that believing is a product of already being born again and not the cause of being born again, is show the ignorance in a person, such a blunt statement you made.

We have the righteousness of Yeshua within us because he made us his righteousness on the cross.

Seriously, you are deliberately and ignorantly distorting the truth of of the Scriptures what God made clear when he first spoke or you don't know what you are talking about.

It appears that you enjoy disputing the word of God to prove that God was not clear when he first spoke, but God was clear when he first spoke and according to the Scriptures (God's word) you are not only wrong, but you have distorted the truth of God's word what he made clear when he first spoke.

SUNDOWNSAM, I am sorry to detect that I have made you so hostel from your comments about me. It seems that every view of any scripture that I give you, You think that it is a distorted view. Clearly, we have a different view of what the scriptures mean, and we knew that in the beginning of our conversation. I was hoping that I had found someone that could discuss our different views with a calm and respectful attitude. I have complimented you on your knowledge of the scriptures and your patience and you show disrespect toward me by calling me ignorant. I understand the reason that you do not understand my views of the scriptures and it is not because you are ignorant. For some reason, which I do not understand, is why God choose to make his word a mystery to most of his children and only reveals it to just a few. Matt ii:25, I thank thee O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto (ignorant) babes. You have misquoted me by saying that I said "he made us his righteousness on the cross". In my post #305 I said "when we are born again, we have the righteousness of Christ in us". Eph 2:5, Even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ. Romans 4:24, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the grave, and we will not believe that, as a natural man, until we are quickened together with Christ. No one knows that they have been born again until after they have been taught so by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy through the understanding of the gospel after they have been born again.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

-------------

I guess you did not read what I previously posted in one of my post.

Question, if the Jews who did believe that Yeshua were born-again, my did he know what born-again was all about when Yeshua mentioned it to him? If you're going to give me a distorted view do not bother responding.

To fabricate in your mind that believing is a product of already being born again and not the cause of being born again, is show the ignorance in a person, such a blunt statement you made.

We have the righteousness of Yeshua within us because he made us his righteousness on the cross.

Seriously, you are deliberately and ignorantly distorting the truth of of the Scriptures what God made clear when he first spoke or you don't know what you are talking about.

It appears that you enjoy disputing the word of God to prove that God was not clear when he first spoke, but God was clear when he first spoke and according to the Scriptures (God's word) you are not only wrong, but you have distorted the truth of God's word what he made clear when he first spoke.

You do realize that the larger amount of the population, in the days that Jesus was teaching here on earth, thought that his doctrine was rediculass and some said "it is a hard saying, who can know it". Most of God's born again children in this day and time still do not understand, and think it to be a hard saying to understand.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

UnitedWithChrist...I have read your article and agree with it. However, there are a few point(s) that are dangling and the following may clear them up....

Point 1. I blieve there are no-Carnal Christians as the Holy Spirit living within the True Christian will not allow. This would a be a affront to the very GOD that elects us.

Point 2... We know not how God has selected those He wishes to be predestined. We do not know as the semi-palaginist affirm that GOD chose all those He saw would believe in HIM, thus John 3:16. He could and probably did choose from many that even by today standards would label these people unsalvageable. We just simply do not and can not know.

Point 3...The question was ask about the time of regeneration...I believe this to be at the calling of GOD, "for whom He predestines, He Calls" (Rom 8:30 KJV). God's "Calling" I believe is not given in any order that we would recognize but according to HIS plan for each elect.

I take my life as a simple ruler: I have been on the this earth for the lbetter half of seventy years. In the beginning, as a child I walked the isle to get saved, yet at 15, turned away from the church not to return. Through these early years, I still believed in GOD although like those "Free-WIllers" you speak of, I too did not believe in the actual WORD but what I wanted to believe in(Free-WIll). Then some twenty years ago. an event happened that brought me closer to GOD than I had ever been. IT JUST HAPPENED! and over a period of two years, I tested this event in every way conceivable finally coming up with the answer I was searching for. These answers by the way were far different than those I imagine them to be.

Then in one afternoon, walking through the pasture, it hit me and since that time, I have thrown away and continue to turn away from sins I know is wrong even when I simply think of them. My life is now for GOD and HE walks with me everywhere I go.

To make this story a little shorter, My salvation having been asked for when I was young, did not come until I was old and even then there was no action on my part that asked or did anything to get it. Yes, afterward that calling (regeneration) I believed and promised to turn away from my sins forever. This I have done although in this body, "Not to Sin" is an oxymoron.

I said earlier: God's "Calling" I believe is given not in any order that we would recognize but according to HIS plan for each elect.. According to Rev. and other NT books, we the Church (body of Christ) will not go through His wrath (Daniel's 70th week). Yet, there are those elect that will live into Daniel's 70th week and will in effect "have to lose their heads" while believing in the "Everlasting Gospel". The "Tribulation Saints", I believe are many of the ones who are elected but have not been called until this dispensation period. I also believe that many of Free-Willers, while they profess to love GOD, will see the error in their ways and seek HIM earnestly without the previous parameters as His "Calling" continues until it is fulfilled.

Blade

OK thanks for expressing your views.

I believe that regeneration precedes faith, and that no one is saved because God foresees their faith. He causes it. And he saves the worst of people, according to 1 Cor 1.

I think some of the other remarks toward the end reflect dispensationalism. I don't believe in dispensationalism. I am actually looking at it closer due to a church membership issue. The church I attend is premillennial and I am not. It is likely my membership application will take a longer time to approve due to their views. I am actually considering leaving the congregation if it is not approved. Unfortunately, there are not many amillennial churches in this area as dispensationalism is common amongst conservative churches here. The closest I know is a congregation 50 miles away and I could attend there most of the time.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

That's right and guess what: Everything you said is inline with Acts 16:30-31 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

Or is it not?

Just trying to see if you've abandoned your wicked hyper-calvinist ways, have you?

There is no contradiction, the elect are the ones who believe and those who believe, shall be saved!

Embrace them in unity or you will be a hyper-calvinist.

What causes belief? Regeneration.

Do you think belief and repentance issues forth from the stony, dead heart of unsaved men?

This is the main reason why I am Reformed. The idea that a man, dead in his sins and having a hard, stony heart can produce repentance and faith is ludicrous. God must give this man a heart of flesh so he can respond in faith and repentance.

Somehow we are to believe that God expends personal salvational effort saving a man who has a cold and stony heart, knowing all along he won't respond because he hasn't been given the spiritual equipment to do so.

I find it ludicrous myself.

 

[John146]

What causes belief? Regeneration.

Do you think belief and repentance issues forth from the stony, dead heart of unsaved men?

This is the main reason why I am Reformed. The idea that a man, dead in his sins and having a hard, stony heart can produce repentance and faith is ludicrous. God must give this man a heart of flesh so he can respond in faith and repentance.

Somehow we are to believe that God expends personal salvational effort saving a man who has a cold and stony heart, knowing all along he won't respond because he hasn't been given the spiritual equipment to do so.

I find it ludicrous myself.

Is it not possible that God has given every man enough light to believe? Can the Holy Spirit lead a man to the truth of the gospel without regeneration happening first? Is this possible with God?

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Is it not possible that God has given every man enough light to believe? Can the Holy Spirit lead a man to the truth of the gospel without regeneration happening first? Is this possible with God?

It's possible for God to create a pig that flies.

What does the Bible teach, though?

Does it teach that a man, who is dead in his sins, needs to be made alive again, before he can believe? Does it teach that he has a cold, stony heart that needs to be replaced with a heart of flesh, before he can do anything that pleases God, including exercising faith and repentance?

I've already made a Scriptural case for these positions.

By the way, is your position that every man has the gift of faith? If so, why are unconverted men called unbelievers?

Additionally, in regards to being led to the truth prior to regeneration, I would hold that there is a drawing process which occurs prior to regeneration. I don't think the man is in a regenerate state at that point, though. He is simply being drawn. An animal can be drawn by the scent of dead prey..it doesn't mean that he's already consuming it.

All of these are MONERGISTIC actions though.

Read Romans 3. Does it say anyone is seeking the truth of his own resources? No.

In fact, the unsaved mind is engaged, like a cockroach, in hiding under every rock he can find to avoid God. God scares him to death.

As I have said, like 50 billion times, the heart of stone CANNOT exercise faith and repentance, therefore this necessitates regeneration prior to faith and repentance.

By the way, for those folks who don't understand this, regeneration means to be made alive again. It is a spiritual resurrection...and the sequence of events is clearly described in Ephesians 2:1-10.

Notice that God makes the person alive again, and there is no room for boasting about faith or any other element of salvation because God gives it to the saved person.

It is plain as the nose on one's face yet free-willers will continue, again and again, to assert that their salvation was dependent on them, and not a result of God's monergistic power.