Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

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Is the doctrine of limited atonement biblical?

  • Yes, Jesus died for a particular group of people and his atonement accomplishes their salvation.

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • No, Jesus died for all men, without exception, and his atonement only makes salvation possible.

    Votes: 15 51.7%

  • Total voters
    29

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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We are free to work for God or against God, that is just the truth of it, otherwise there is no room for God to judge anyone, as the early Church also argued, if man is not free to obey or disobey, no man is to be commended or blamed.
IOW your argument is:

'how can He still judge us, for who can resist His will?'

my reply is the same that is written: who are you to answer back to Him? to tell Him what He can and cannot do, according to your own wisdom?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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IOW your argument is:

'how can He still judge us, for who can resist His will?'

my reply is the same that is written: who are you to answer back to Him? to tell Him what He can and cannot do, according to your own wisdom?
I resist His will all the time. I admit it.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
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IOW your argument is:

'how can He still judge us, for who can resist His will?'

my reply is the same that is written: who are you to answer back to Him? to tell Him what He can and cannot do, according to your own wisdom?
I am not saying God cannot do this or do that. I am not arguing against Calvinism for "I do not like it" reasons, but for "I do not see it in the Bible" reasons.

If I was arguing in favor of "I do not like it therefore it is not true" I would not believe a word in the Bible. Do you think I like the fact that anyone is going to hell? If I could choose to be anything, I would choose to be a universalist, and I would pardon all. But because I am not the one making that call, I have to accept what the Bible teaches.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I am not saying God cannot do this or do that. I am not arguing against Calvinism for "I do not like it" reasons, but for "I do not see it in the Bible" reasons.

If I was arguing in favor of "I do not like it therefore it is not true" I would not believe a word in the Bible. Do you think I like the fact that anyone is going to hell? If I could choose to be anything, I would choose to be a universalist, and I would pardon all. But because I am not the one making that call, I have to accept what the Bible teaches.
What does John 6 teach?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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We all do. That's why He has to grant to us to come to Him, why it is not by the will of man, but by the will of God, who has mercy.
If man is going to receive mercy from God, man has to do it on God’s terms not our own. God’s way is through Jesus Christ. Man can’t will it any other way.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,345
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If you wish to impose a Calvinist teaching on it, you are free to do so. Have you looked at the other views available?
I am not talking about calvinism and i am asking what does the scripture actually teach, without imposing any kind of thing on it.


What does Jesus teach in John 6?
If it's different from what I walked through in the larger reply to Sam the other day, show me from John 6. Y'all saying 'we hate calvinism and we don't see it in scripture' edifices no one. Show me what you DO see in John 6?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Yeshua said, wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her.

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Posthuman post was well written and he does believe that salvation is available to all men. I cannot recall if he made a mention that God gives some to the Son, but from reading his post it is clear that he is not supporting calvinism, but that those who believe those the Father gives the son.

Calvinism is a completely false teaching, contrary to the truth of the word of God, what God made clear when he first spoke. I provided a video on Jacob Prasch talking about calvinism, and he is clear where this doctrine originated from. My brother brought about a good question... Was Adam elected? I would ask it this way, being that Adam fell, was he chosen before the foundation of the world? If one answers yes, then my next question would be... How could he have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the world? God who is sovereign, his sovereignty is shown in his omniscience.

Judas betrayed Yeshua, did God created Judas to betray Yeshua or was it through the greed of money that he betrayed Yeshua? With this being said, all who believe that God literally hand picks who gets eternal life and who goes to eternal damnation, not only indulges in a false doctrine of the salvation that God offer, but there God is not the God of the bible. Not to mention, if God "OFFERs" salvation this mean that anyone can accepted it.

All you calvinism can throw all the questions you want, but the fact that your view is a false doctrine and not scriptural, instead of one responding to your questions, you should be rebuked for distorting the truth of God's word, what God made clear when he first spoke.

john calvin knew exactly what he was doing when he deliberately distorted the word of God and john macarthur who also is a calvinist is no different, he not only believes that God chooses who to eternal life and who he condemns to eternal damnation without a choice, but he teaches that one can take the mark of the beast and still be saved. The fact is that these wolves are covered with sheep skin, appearing to be angels of light, but God is dimming the lights so that these wolves in sheep clothing can be seen and john piper is no different. It is all about money with these men, how much they can generate, but many are too blind to see this.
It makes me wonder if you are trying to have all of your scriptures to harmonize, by saying "how could he have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the world". I believe the scriptures to teach that if God gives eternal life to a person they cannot fall from having eternal life. John 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My belief is based upon scripture proving scripture and they must all harmonize. Other men's interpretation of the scriptures can falsely lead you astray unless that man's understanding is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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It makes me wonder if you are trying to have all of your scriptures to harmonize, by saying "how could he have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the world". I believe the scriptures to teach that if God gives eternal life to a person they cannot fall from having eternal life. John 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My belief is based upon scripture proving scripture and they must all harmonize. Other men's interpretation of the scriptures can falsely lead you astray unless that man's understanding is by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
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I do not have to harmonize the Scriptures, for the Scriptures supports itself by coming into agreement without any contradiction, man is the one who distorts the word of God. I asked a fair question, how could Adam have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the worlds and you failed to respond.

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say once saved always saved, and we are not talking about believing, we are talking about a believer betraying his faith, can he, and the answer to that question is yes and the Scriptures makes it clear. True that no man can be plucked out of God's hand, but man can reject the faith plucking himself from God's hand, example... A parent that is holding his child by the hand, the child tries to pull away from being held by the hands, the parents gets so fed up that he lets the child go, the same manner that the child was able to pull away there is no difference with the believers.

What I noticed about you from your writings, you appear to lean on what goes against the Scriptures when theology is discussed. Let me ask you, do you believe that when a man is cast into the lake of fire it would be throughout eternity? I don't think you do, but like you just to respond with a yes or no. You can also respond to what I asked about Adam.

Respectfully,
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,540
410
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I do not have to harmonize the Scriptures, for the Scriptures supports itself by coming into agreement without any contradiction, man is the one who distorts the word of God. I asked a fair question, how could Adam have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the worlds and you failed to respond.

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say once saved always saved, and we are not talking about believing, we are talking about a believer betraying his faith, can he, and the answer to that question is yes and the Scriptures makes it clear. True that no man can be plucked out of God's hand, but man can reject the faith plucking himself from God's hand, example... A parent that is holding his child by the hand, the child tries to pull away from being held by the hands, the parents gets so fed up that he lets the child go, the same manner that the child was able to pull away there is no difference with the believers.

What I noticed about you from your writings, you appear to lean on what goes against the Scriptures when theology is discussed. Let me ask you, do you believe that when a man is cast into the lake of fire it would be throughout eternity? I don't think you do, but like you just to respond with a yes or no. You can also respond to what I asked about Adam.

Respectfully,
Yes, I believe that it would be throughout eternity.
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I do not have to harmonize the Scriptures, for the Scriptures supports itself by coming into agreement without any contradiction, man is the one who distorts the word of God. I asked a fair question, how could Adam have fallen if he was chosen before the foundation of the worlds and you failed to respond.

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say once saved always saved, and we are not talking about believing, we are talking about a believer betraying his faith, can he, and the answer to that question is yes and the Scriptures makes it clear. True that no man can be plucked out of God's hand, but man can reject the faith plucking himself from God's hand, example... A parent that is holding his child by the hand, the child tries to pull away from being held by the hands, the parents gets so fed up that he lets the child go, the same manner that the child was able to pull away there is no difference with the believers.

What I noticed about you from your writings, you appear to lean on what goes against the Scriptures when theology is discussed. Let me ask you, do you believe that when a man is cast into the lake of fire it would be throughout eternity? I don't think you do, but like you just to respond with a yes or no. You can also respond to what I asked about Adam.

Respectfully,
Yes, I believe that it would be throughout eternity. I thought I had given my answer about Adam. If Adam was chosen before the foundation of the world, the same as all others that were chosen, they will be given eternal live and John 10:28 explains it by saying "And I will give them eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." OSAS. So, no they cannot fall from their eternal inheritance, however. they can fall from their fellowship with God , because God will not fellowship sin, until they repent.
 

SUNDOWNSAM

Active member
Dec 2, 2019
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Yes, I believe that it would be throughout eternity.

Yes, I believe that it would be throughout eternity. I thought I had given my answer about Adam. If Adam was chosen before the foundation of the world, the same as all others that were chosen, they will be given eternal live and John 10:28 explains it by saying "And I will give them eternal life and they SHALL NEVER PERISH." OSAS. So, no they cannot fall from their eternal inheritance, however. they can fall from their fellowship with God , because God will not fellowship sin, until they repent.
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In other words, you believe once saved always saved. How can you believe that a person can fall from their fellowship with God because of sin and still be saved when you are also acknowledging that God will not fellowship with those who continue in sin? Give me a passage in the Scriptures that supports your heretic view.

Isaish 59:2 tells us that iniquities separates one from God and hides God's face from those who sin.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
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I am not talking about calvinism and i am asking what does the scripture actually teach, without imposing any kind of thing on it.


What does Jesus teach in John 6?
If it's different from what I walked through in the larger reply to Sam the other day, show me from John 6. Y'all saying 'we hate calvinism and we don't see it in scripture' edifices no one. Show me what you DO see in John 6?
John 6:44 means no one can come to Jesus unless Father draws them and those who end up coming will be resurrected at the last day.
Nothing complicated in it to be quite honest.

The difference is only in interpretation, John 6:65 is good to take into account. It is also wise to understand we are dealing with Jews and all this is happening before the cross, so that is why Jesus quotes from Isaiah because those prophecies were being fulfilled through the hardened hearts of theirs.
 

Bladerunner

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2016
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Here's an additional remark...churches which are generally Reformed tend to deny limited atonement.

The reason they would say they deny it is due to the "all" Scriptures I reference above.

My position would be that they are being inconsistent, because they believe and affirm that God has elected certain individuals, but they claim that Jesus' atonement covered all mankind.

What is the use in electing individuals who will never be saved, because they are not part of the elect? Therefore, I think their real issue is with election. Either that, or they want to fit in with the rest of the evangelical church.

Actually the church I attend is in a similar situation. While they would generally agree with Reformed theology, and never mention something I would think reflects a weak, free-willer perspective, they do not talk about limited atonement, ever.

I can live with that situation personally, but I realize they are being inconsistent. Once the believer accepts election (that God chooses), it doesn't matter about limited atonement because Jesus' atonement is only effective for the elect. The rest are children of Satan who will never be saved, and who are destined for destruction.

I know their concern is that someone will think they are not part of the elect, and therefore cannot be saved. However, no Reformed person I have met would claim there is ever such a person as a man who wants to be saved, who cannot be saved. Salvation is open to all who will repent and believe.

The question is, what causes a person to repent and believe? Regeneration. And the fact that the person is one of the elect. Jesus' sheep hear his voice and respond. Goats, who are sons of the devil, don't hear his voice and don't respond. They may hear the words, but the words don't sink down to the heart level, and have an effect.
UnitedWithChrist...I have read your article and agree with it. However, there are a few point(s) that are dangling and the following may clear them up....

Point 1. I blieve there are no-Carnal Christians as the Holy Spirit living within the True Christian will not allow. This would a be a affront to the very GOD that elects us.

Point 2... We know not how God has selected those He wishes to be predestined. We do not know as the semi-palaginist affirm that GOD chose all those He saw would believe in HIM, thus John 3:16. He could and probably did choose from many that even by today standards would label these people unsalvageable. We just simply do not and can not know.

Point 3...The question was ask about the time of regeneration...I believe this to be at the calling of GOD, "for whom He predestines, He Calls" (Rom 8:30 KJV). God's "Calling" I believe is not given in any order that we would recognize but according to HIS plan for each elect.

I take my life as a simple ruler: I have been on the this earth for the lbetter half of seventy years. In the beginning, as a child I walked the isle to get saved, yet at 15, turned away from the church not to return. Through these early years, I still believed in GOD although like those "Free-WIllers" you speak of, I too did not believe in the actual WORD but what I wanted to believe in(Free-WIll). Then some twenty years ago. an event happened that brought me closer to GOD than I had ever been. IT JUST HAPPENED! and over a period of two years, I tested this event in every way conceivable finally coming up with the answer I was searching for. These answers by the way were far different than those I imagine them to be.

Then in one afternoon, walking through the pasture, it hit me and since that time, I have thrown away and continue to turn away from sins I know is wrong even when I simply think of them. My life is now for GOD and HE walks with me everywhere I go.

To make this story a little shorter, My salvation having been asked for when I was young, did not come until I was old and even then there was no action on my part that asked or did anything to get it. Yes, afterward that calling (regeneration) I believed and promised to turn away from my sins forever. This I have done although in this body, "Not to Sin" is an oxymoron.

I said earlier: God's "Calling" I believe is given not in any order that we would recognize but according to HIS plan for each elect.. According to Rev. and other NT books, we the Church (body of Christ) will not go through His wrath (Daniel's 70th week). Yet, there are those elect that will live into Daniel's 70th week and will in effect "have to lose their heads" while believing in the "Everlasting Gospel". The "Tribulation Saints", I believe are many of the ones who are elected but have not been called until this dispensation period. I also believe that many of Free-Willers, while they profess to love GOD, will see the error in their ways and seek HIM earnestly without the previous parameters as His "Calling" continues until it is fulfilled.

Blade
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
26,345
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yay :) thanks for reading my drivel & writing back!

John 6:44 means no one can come to Jesus unless Father draws them and those who end up coming will be resurrected at the last day.
Nothing complicated in it to be quite honest.
that is incredibly complicated IMO!
especially given that in the context of the passage three times He equivocates coming to Him with believing in Him.


The difference is only in interpretation
what difference?
John 6:65 is good to take into account.
yes
He told us, no one can come to Him unless the Father enables them - grants it to them to come.
this too:


It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me.
(John 6:45)
no one comes to Him unless the Father draws them.
no one comes to Him unless the Father makes them able to.
everyone the Father makes able to come to Him, comes to Him.
everyone who learns from the Father comes to Him.
not one is lost. every one receives eternal life: has salvation.
everyone who believes is saved.
He equivocates -
not one is lost. every one receives eternal life: has salvation.
everyone who learns from the Father is saved.
everyone the father makes able to believe on Him, believes on Him.
no one believes in Him unless the Father makes them able to.
no one believes in Him unless the Father draws them.


now, you really think this is nothing complicated? this is John 10 - the Shepherd and His sheep. He calls them by name, and they do not fail to come to Him. He knows them, and they know Him. is that nothing complicated? there He says those who aren't His sheep cannot believe ((v.26)) - wow! - and repeats that in John 12:39 citing the fulfillment of Isaiah 6:9-10 - where Yah says He will prevent a people from being able to understand and turn to Him -- the very philosophical objection you raised and Paul anticipates in Romans 9:19-20, which alludes to the whole book of Job, in the end of which Job receives the same 'who do you think you are to presume to judge and question the LORD?' reply, at which this righteous man promptly claps his hand over mouth exclaiming "Behold, I am vile!! what shall I answer Thee?" ((40:4))
this is nothing complicated?
this is Genesis 3, because we are all in Adam -- it's Ephesians 2 because our only hope is to be rather in Christ. how many scriptures speak of that? all those are connected to this & we have to grasp them also to fully understand what's going on in John 6:44. it's the very nature of being that we're talking about, the great mystery of godliness that Romans 11:3 calls unsearchable and beyond finding out, that Ecclesiastes 3:11 declares to have been fashioned such that we cannot comprehend it, Psalm 139:6 says is too lofty to be attainable, and Ephesians 3:19 says is a thing to be sought to know yet is a thing surpassing knowledge.
nothing complicated?


well, if it's not, then

surely I am more stupid than any man,
and do not have the understanding of a man.
(Proverbs 30:2)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,074
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well, if it's not, then

surely I am more stupid than any man,
and do not have the understanding of a man.
(Proverbs 30:2)
Its ok Post...

1 Corinthians 1:25-29
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


The Lord knows we're dummies...
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,540
410
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In other words, you believe once saved always saved. How can you believe that a person can fall from their fellowship with God because of sin and still be saved when you are also acknowledging that God will not fellowship with those who continue in sin? Give me a passage in the Scriptures that supports your heretic view.

Isaish 59:2 tells us that iniquities separates one from God and hides God's face from those who sin.
REspectfully, I believe that all scriptures must harmonize or we are not interpreting them right. John 10:28 Plainly states that those he gives eternal life to will never perish. I don't know how you could interpret that to mean anything less than Once saved always saved. Isaiah 59:2 is in harmony with John 10:28. Acts 3:19, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. In verse 12 of Acts 3 Peter is addressing "the men of Israel/Jacob". Who had already been born again, The "times of refreshing" is when we are in fellowship with the Lord. Being regenerated comes first, then conversion follows. Salvation according to Strong's concordance means = "a deliverance". We are delivered eternally, and we are delivered many times as we live here in this world. Example; When we ask God to heal an illness that we have and he does heal it, we have just witnessed a deliverance (salvation, timely not eternal). I realize that this will prompt more questions from you, so ask, and I will attempt to answer.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,863
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yes
He told us, no one can come to Him unless the Father enables them - grants it to them to come.
this too:


It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’
Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me.
(John 6:45)
just reading everything its so many tricks people have to use to avoid john 6:44 like i did.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
8,972
1,218
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REspectfully, I believe that all scriptures must harmonize or we are not interpreting them right.
There are divisions to be made in the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.