Is the "renewing of the mind " our responcibility?

[Dreamstate]

The renewing of the mind is not a action nor a work. It is the Believer placing his Faith in Jesus Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross of Christ, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, daily. By doing so this gives the Holy Spirit the legal means to help the Believer in every capacity of life because you are glorifying Christ. The Holy Spirit only works between Christ and His Finished Work. He is the one that renews the mind, keeps all commandments, and all laws.

There is nothing within ourselves that any human being can produce that God will accept!
Remember, God said, "This is My Beloved Son who I Am well please." He never said that about us. The closes thing He said about us is, "without Faith it is impossible to please God."

It is imperative that a Believers Faith is exclusively in Christ and the Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus, i.e., The Finished Work of Christ (Romans 8:2). Anything and everything else is during the same as Aaron's sons (Nadab & Abihu) by offering strange fire. (Lev. 10:1)

Christians offer strange fire when they change God's prescribed order of victory for sanctification (over sin, over the world, the flesh, and the Devil). Romans 8:2

Yeah of course, whatever you say.

"The renewing of the mind is not a action nor a work."

1 Thessalonians 2:13

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

"There is nothing within ourselves that any human being can produce that God will accept!"

Psalm 51:7

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Philippians 4:18

I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.

Peter 2:5

you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

2 Corinthians 4:16

So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self[d] is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

Please would you use The Bible properly to justify what you say ? That way you'll give better signs that The Holy Spirit is at work in you. Many thanks.

 

[MarcR]

That is renewing your mind, something we do.


That is renewing your mind, something we do.


Right. Something we neglect to do.


And as we renew our minds by putting on the new man, we will thrive.




Exactly. That is renewing your mind.


As we renew OUR minds by putting off the old man and putting on the new, we will become more Christ-like.


Our continuing in the new man is accomplished by our renewing our minds.


And that, reneweddaybyday, is renewing our minds.

Is that true because you think it is true or do you have a scriptural basis for it?

I demonstrated from the Greek text and from basic grammar that it is not as you say.

What do you base your argument on? Or do you think it has to be right because you said it?

 

[Miri]

Think of parent trying to tame an unruly child.
Its the parents responsibility, they know best, it helps if the
child cooperates.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is renewing your mind, something we do.

That is renewing your mind, something we do.

Right. Something we neglect to do.

And as we renew our minds by putting on the new man, we will thrive.

Exactly. That is renewing your mind.

As we renew OUR minds by putting off the old man and putting on the new, we will become more Christ-like.

Our continuing in the new man is accomplished by our renewing our minds.

And that, reneweddaybyday, is renewing our minds.

Hi Shrume,

The born again one puts off the old man (Eph 4:22, Col 3:9) and puts on the new man (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10).

In the new man which we put on is the mind of Christ.

Do you believe the mind of Christ needs to be renewed? What can you possibly add to the mind of Christ that would "renew" it?

I believe the mind of Christ is the renewed mind. The mind of Christ is perfect and there is nothing I need to do to the new man to make it more renewed.

What do you think you need to do to make the new man renewed, or better, or more perfect, or more Christlike?

 

[Dreamstate]

Hi Shrume,

The born again one puts off the old man (Eph 4:22, Col 3:9) and puts on the new man (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10).

In the new man which we put on is the mind of Christ.

Do you believe the mind of Christ needs to be renewed? What can you possibly add to the mind of Christ that would "renew" it?

I believe the mind of Christ is the renewed mind. The mind of Christ is perfect and there is nothing I need to do to the new man to make it more renewed.

What do you think you need to do to make the new man renewed, or better, or more perfect, or more Christlike?

So you are sinless at this moment in time and will never sin again ?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Yes. It is not our responsibility.

Look at the verses posted by Depleted:

Romans 12:

1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to thing, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


Our responsibility:

vs 1 - present ourselves as a living sacrifice (not the dead sacrifice of the OC).

vs 2 - do not be conformed to this world

vs 3 - do not think of ourselves more highly than we ought; think soberly.

Our responsibility:

v1) present ourselves as a living sacrifice
v2) don't be conformed to this world HOW? be transformed HOW? by renewing our minds
v3) basically: don't be prideful

The renewed mind is part of the new man. Who created this new man? Did we? No. The new man is created within at the time of the new birth. Part of this new man is the mind of Christ ... the renewed mind of Rom 12:2.

The reason we are told to renew our minds is because our minds are not magically changed because we are born again and now partake of the divine nature. We have to learn to line up our minds with the word of God

When we are born again, God creates the new man within. What needs to change in the new man? Nothing. The new man is perfect.

What we have to do is put off the old man and put on the new man. We learn to walk in the new man. We learn to stay put in the new man.

Yes, the new man is perfect - yet I am not. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man is renewing the mind. The more we renew our minds, the more we will be like Christ.

Right. God does not put off the old man for us. That's our responsibility. Putting off the old man is the "do not be conformed to this world" of Rom 12:2.

The only time we feel the flesh battling against the Spirit of God is when we neglect to put off the old man.

The new man does not battle against the Spirit of God. The new man thrives, and is robust, in the things of God.

Putting on the new man is our responsibility. Part of the new man is the mind of Christ. Does the mind of Christ need to be renewed? No! The mind of Christ is the renewed mind.

Putting off the old man, yes, is our responsibility, i.e. do not be conformed to the world - but we are to be transformed by the renewing of "YOUR" (our) minds. . .

the new man does not battle against the Spirit of God . . . I don't believe I said that. But our old man (flesh) does battle against the new man (Spirit) . . . we are not perfect because we are born again.

As we continue in the new man, we grow up (mature). When we are first born again, we learn to walk in that new man created within. As we learn to walk, we become less and less inclined to stumble. The new man loves the Word of God. The new man loves to do what God tells us to do.

In fact, if we find we do not want to read our Bibles, or that we do not want to do what God instructs, we have not put off the old man. So what do we do? Put off the old man; put on the new man. Then we're back in sync again with God.

[/QUOTE]
We mature in the things of God as we renew our minds to the word of God . . which is "renewing your mind".

When we are saved we become a new creation; but our old man is not completely banished and old habits and ways of thinking can still hinder our walk.

I agree.

In Eph 4:22 the word conversation refers to lifestyle. Putting off the old man is reminding us that old habits and ways of thinking can hinder our walk with the Lord.

I agree . . . and if we do not renew our minds; i.e. our way of thinking, then we will still be conformed to this world and not transformed to be like Christ. If we do not renew our minds to the word of God, we will not know "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" which leads us to "NOT be conformed to this world".

Col 3:10 says directly that the new man is already renewed (that was done for us) and
again reminds us to guard our walk and our testimony. Ro 12:2Tells us that God will continually renew our minds and cautions us not to hinder the process.

Colossians 3 - v1 SEEK those things which are above . . . v2) SET your affection on things above; v5) MORTIFY therefore (these things) . . v7) (those things) we used to walk and live in; i.e. the old man; v8) also PUT OFF these things and 9) lie not one to another - because you have PUT off the old man and v10) have PUT on the new man which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him (God) who created him (the new man). Our new man is renewed in knowledge, i.e. the word of God "proving what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God". . . . seems to me that Colossians is directly telling us how to renew our minds . . .

 

[Enow]

Has the responsibility of the renewing of our minds been given to us by the power of the Holy Spirit, or does it just happen once we believe? In Scripture Paul seems to be saying that it's up to us in order for it to be done.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:2)

"And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness." (Ephesians 4:23-24)

What do you think?

Being still in this sinful flesh and in this sin fallen world and around sinners that would entice us to run as they do in the world, we need to rely on Jesus Christ in us as our Good Shepherd to keep our minds and hearts on Him and the things above.

Let us not forget the devil roaming about as a lion seeking whom he may devour, thus the call to be sober.

1 Peter 5:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: [SUP]7 [/SUP]Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. [SUP]11 [/SUP]To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

We have been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ and so it stands to reason that we can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

So when we are thinking evil thoughts or wicked imaginations, and we hear a prompting from the Lord to stop thinking that but to think on something else, we should listen.

2 Corinthians 10: [SUP]3 [/SUP]For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: [SUP]4 [/SUP](For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds [SUP]5 [/SUP]Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; [SUP]6 [/SUP]And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

And sometimes, we may find that we cannot obey ( spiritual warfare may be the cause ) for which we need to ask Him for help to cast down wicked imaginations and to set our minds on good things.

Philippians 4:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Rejoice in the Lord always: and again I say, Rejoice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. [SUP]7 [/SUP]And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

I confess I need to rely on the Lord all the time in keeping the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart acceptable in His sight as all my hopes are Him to do His work in me so I can follow Him even in my heart & mind.

Psalm 19:[SUP]12 [/SUP]Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

What we watch and listen by way of the world's media does have influence, but even we are to guard especially against "Christian" media where false prophets/false teachings can come in.

1 Corinthians 10:23All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

1 Corinthians 6:12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

So it is better to put your confidence in the Lord to renew your mind and help you to renew your mind than to look to yourself to renew your mind by your will & effort.

Psalm 118:[SUP]8 [/SUP]It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man. ( or in yourself )[SUB][SUP]
[/SUP][/SUB]

 

[reneweddaybyday]

So you are sinless at this moment in time and will never sin again ?

Hi Dreamstate.

I did not say what you claim.

What I did say is that when we put on the new man, we will not sin. We need to learn to stay put in that new man.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Do you believe that this new man (which is created in righteousness and true holiness) sins?

 

[Dreamstate]

Hi Dreamstate.

I did not say what you claim.

What I did say is that when we put on the new man, we will not sin. We need to learn to stay put in that new man.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Do you believe that this new man (which is created in righteousness and true holiness) sins?

I didn't claim. I am perfect like my heavenly Father is perfect, Matthew 5:48.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Our responsibility:

v1) present ourselves as a living sacrifice
v2) don't be conformed to this world HOW? be transformed HOW? by renewing our minds
v3) basically: don't be prideful

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind

The words renewing of your mind are one Greek word anakainósis which is derived from two Greek words ana "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new" — properly a new development, a renewal, achieved by God’s power.


Yes, it is our responsibility to not be conformed to this world, which is accomplished as we put off the old man (Eph 4:22, Col 3:9).

And when we put on the new man (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10), we find our minds renewed (anakainósis a new development, a renewal by God's power).

The reason we are told to renew our minds is because our minds are not magically changed because we are born again and now partake of the divine nature. We have to learn to line up our minds with the word of God

How do you line up the divine nature? What can you possibly do to the divine nature to make it more in line with the word of God?

Yes, the new man is perfect - yet I am not. Putting off the old man and putting on the new man is renewing the mind. The more we renew our minds, the more we will be like Christ.

Putting off the old man, yes, is our responsibility, i.e. do not be conformed to the world - but we are to be transformed by the renewing of "YOUR" (our) minds. . .

You are perfect in the new man.

The renewed mind is part of that new man. The renewed mind is not achieved by putting bible verses in the old man. The renewed mind is achieved and the transformation occurs as we put on the new man.

the new man does not battle against the Spirit of God . . . I don't believe I said that. But our old man (flesh) does battle against the new man (Spirit) . . . we are not perfect because we are born again.

The new man, that new creation within the born again believer, is perfect.

We sometimes get distracted by the things of this world and are drawn away from that new creation back into our old habits and ways. That is when we find ourselves battling against the things of God.


Galatians 5 puts it this way:

16 This I say then, Walk in the spirit (new man), and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh (old man).

17 For the flesh (old man) lusteth against the spirit (new man), and the spirit (new man) against the flesh (old man): and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We mature in the things of God as we renew our minds to the word of God . . which is "renewing your mind".

I understand it a little differently than you do.

We mature in the things of God as we learn to continue walking in the new man. Part of that new man is the mind of Christ, which is the renewed mind.

Again, the renewed mind is not putting bible verses in the old man.

The new man is a completely new creation within the born again believer. The born again believer is told to put off the old man and put on the new man. In the new man, the mind is renewed.




The rest of your post is directed to MarcR and I will let MarcR respond to your points made in reply to him.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind

The words renewing of your mind are one Greek word anakainósis which is derived from two Greek words ana "up, completing a process," which intensifies kainō, "make fresh, new" — properly a new development, a renewal, achieved by God’s power.

I did look up the Greek for renewing before I posted (Strong's) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better - also meaning renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly (Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance)
If God renewed our minds upon us receiving the new birth - we would be perfect. Our thought process would be perfect. We would not have to be told to put off the old man and put on the new man. We wouldn't have to be told "cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God" because all we would think would be in alignment with God's word.

Yes, it is our responsibility to not be conformed to this world, which is accomplished as we put off the old man (Eph 4:22, Col 3:9).

Romans 12:2 says that renewing our minds keep us from being conformed to this world - Eph. 4:22 and Colossians 3 tells us HOW.

And when we put on the new man (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10), we find our minds renewed (anakainósis a new development, a renewal by God's power).
by the renewing of YOUR mind - sure seems like the subject would be YOU and that it is something I must do to make my thought processes line up and be in harmony with God's word.
How do you line up the divine nature? What can you possibly do to the divine nature to make it more in line with the word of God?

You are perfect in the new man. The renewed mind is part of that new man.

You aren't doing anything to the divine nature . . . the divine nature = new man, the inner man which is perfect. . . . does having that new man, that inner man change your thought processes? You actually don't have to think twice before you make a decision sometimes? You automatically are in obedience all the time?

You are lining your thoughts - your mind, your thought processes - which was not born again so is not a part of that new man - to do those things that are pleasing unto God. We do not automatically think the word, we do not automatically stop thinking - I'm angry, you make me mad, it's all about me, be prideful, all those things that we are told to put off - we are told to put off for a reason!! No need to tell us to put off these things if our mind is part of that new man; our inner man.

The renewed mind is not achieved by putting bible verses in the old man. The renewed mind is achieved and the transformation occurs as we put on the new man.

Our minds are renewed to the extent that we have absorbed the word . . . yes, the renewed mind is achieved and transformation occurs as we put on the new man which is renewed by knowledge of God. If I did not know that God wanted me to put away bitterness, wrath, anger, evil speaking, malice . . . I would live not thinking anything about it and live my life as I always did . . but since I know that is what God wants me to put away - I renew my mind to that and endeavor to live my life in that manner.

The new man, that new creation within the born again believer, is perfect.

yes, but I have to work at being obedient. Thank God he only sees "Christ in me", the inner man, the new man which he created in me!!!

We sometimes get distracted by the things of this world and are drawn away from that new creation back into our old habits and ways. That is when we find ourselves battling against the things of God.

Galatians 5 puts it this way:

16 This I say then, Walk in the spirit (new man), and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh (old man).
17 For the flesh (old man) lusteth against the spirit (new man), and the spirit (new man) against the flesh (old man): and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Yep . . . the old man lusts against the new man - so sometimes and especially if I do not renew my mind to God's word - I cannot do the things that I want and do not do the things that I want. How exactly does the old man lust against the new man? It is a mental battle within ourselves for the old man and the new man are contrary one to the other. The old man rears its head - the old man that gets angry, gets mad, is selfish, is prideful and if I don't renew my mind to put that old man away - (to put away anger, malice, pride, etc.) and put on the new man - (be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, walk in love, edify others with my speech) then I continue to walk in the flesh instead of the spirit. It doesn't come automatically - at least it didn't for me.

I understand it a little differently than you do.

We mature in the things of God as we learn to continue walking in the new man. Part of that new man is the mind of Christ, which is the renewed mind.

Again, the renewed mind is not putting bible verses in the old man.

The new man is a completely new creation within the born again believer. The born again believer is told to put off the old man and put on the new man. In the new man, the mind is renewed.

My mind sure didn't change when I was born again . . . I am changed on the inside - I am a new creation on the inside . . . God has placed his desires in me to want to please him but if I don't know anything about God - which knowledge has to do with God's word - then I won't know how to put off the old and put on the new. God's word tells me how to get that new man to the outside so that others can see the Christ in me! . . it's called "renewing the mind" and act accordingly.

 

[MessageOfTheCross]

Yeah of course, whatever you say.

"The renewing of the mind is not a action nor a work."

1 Thessalonians 2:13

And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

"There is nothing within ourselves that any human being can produce that God will accept!"

Psalm 51:7

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Philippians 4:18

I have received full payment, and more. I am well supplied, having received from Epaphroditus the gifts you sent, a fragrant offering, a sacrifice acceptable and pleasing to God.

Peter 2:5

you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4

11 Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

2 Corinthians 4:16

So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self[d] is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.

Please would you use The Bible properly to justify what you say ? That way you'll give better signs that The Holy Spirit is at work in you. Many thanks.

Most Christians are blinded with a veil over their face by the misinterpretation of the scriptures as Israel was and is to the very day (a evil spirit is behind this - that puts the Christian in bondage). They make the scriptures as a duty, instead of faith alone. It has always been hard for a Christian man then and now to give up the works of the flesh. They want to do what the scriptures says to do with the flesh (Romans 8:13), instead of following Gods prescribe order of victory which is placing Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus; which then allows the Holy Spirit to accomplish and bring victory and do what needs to be done in the Christian life. The Holy Spirit only works in the perimeters of Christ and the Finished Work. (Romans 8:2). "The Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus."

The letter kills (i.e., reading the scriptures and understanding the scriptures are two different things), but the Spirit brings life: This is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they have missed their opportunity (Luke 19:41-44).

 

[Enow]

Think of parent trying to tame an unruly child.
Its the parents responsibility, they know best, it helps if the
child cooperates.




View attachment 174180

It helps to even trust Him to be able to deny yourself as able to follow Him ( crucifying our religious flesh ) to rely on Him as our Good Shepherd all the time to follow Him. It is why it is simply written that the just shall live by faith... in Jesus Christ.

Luke 9:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

 

[Dreamstate]

Most Christians are blinded with a veil over their face by the misinterpretation of the scriptures as Israel was and is to the very day (a evil spirit is behind this - that puts the Christian in bondage). They make the scriptures as a duty, instead of faith alone. It has always been hard for a Christian man then and now to give up the works of the flesh. They want to do what the scriptures says to do with the flesh (Romans 8:13), instead of following Gods prescribe order of victory which is placing Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., The Cross, i.e., The Blood of Jesus; which then allows the Holy Spirit to accomplish and bring victory and do what needs to be done in the Christian life. The Holy Spirit only works in the perimeters of Christ and the Finished Work. (Romans 8:2). "The Law of the Spirit of Life In Christ Jesus."

The letter kills (i.e., reading the scriptures and understanding the scriptures are two different things), but the Spirit brings life: This is why Jesus wept over Jerusalem because they have missed their opportunity (Luke 19:41-44).

You must be joking lol Ok, I'll play along. You know what, Ken? I'm gonna tell you the truth. For awhile there I never thought I was gonna get you. Believe me, you had me going in such circles. I couldn't figure it out. Suddenly, I thought of something-- how clever that first murder was-- the phone gimmick, working in late in the office. Brilliant!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

* Apologies in advance for the length of this reply to peacefulbeliever. However, she and I are dealing with many issues relating to the renewed mind, the "old man", the "new man", the believer's walk in Christ, etc. I appreciate the demeanor of peacefulbeliever. She and I are discussing with the respect each of us deserves as children of God. Thank you, peacefulbeliever.

I did look up the Greek for renewing before I posted (Strong's) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better - also meaning renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly (Bullinger's Critical Lexicon and Concordance)

I also looked up Bullinger's definition. Here is the full definition of anakainósis as shown in his Fourth Edition, Revised, MDCCCXCV (1895):

"renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly"​

In the new man, we have the mind of Christ. It is what Bullinger refers to as "other and different from that which had been formerly".

"That which had been formerly" is the old man.

If God renewed our minds upon us receiving the new birth - we would be perfect.

Is the new man not perfect?

Our thought process would be perfect. We would not have to be told to put off the old man and put on the new man. We wouldn't have to be told "cast down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God" because all we would think would be in alignment with God's word.

We both agree God creates the new man within the born again believer.

I do not believe we are in agreement that the new man includes the mind of Christ.


Questions:


Who causes the growth as we continue to feed on the Word of God?


Do we grow ourselves? Or does God grow us, as He brings the increase?


Do we conform ourselves to the image of Christ? Or is it God (Who is at work within us) Who conforms us to the image of His Son?

Romans 12:2 says that renewing our minds keep us from being conformed to this world - Eph. 4:22 and Colossians 3 tells us HOW.

Again, I see this a little differently than you do and I have explained this numerous times in this thread. Obviously you and in are not in agreement concerning this point.

You aren't doing anything to the divine nature . . . the divine nature = new man, the inner man which is perfect. . . .

Yes. So how are you going to make it "more perfect"?

Putting on the new man does not make it more perfect. It already is perfect.

does having that new man, that inner man change your thought processes? You actually don't have to think twice before you make a decision sometimes? You automatically are in obedience all the time?

I do agree that when we are first born again we are "babes in Christ" and in need of the sincere milk of the word as shown in 1 Peter 2:2. And as we feed on that milk of the Word, we grow spiritually, from babes in Christ (1 Peter 2:2) to no longer children, tossed to a fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14) to of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14).

And again, Who causes the growth? Do we?

All we can do is feed on that sincere milk of the Word and, as we grow stronger therein (which is something God works within us as He brings increase) not allow ourselves to be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, and, in addition, have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil in order to recognize those things which are thrown at us and which are designed to have us conform to this world.


Our part in the whole equation of growing up/maturing is put off the old man and put on the new man.


The new man will desire the sincere milk of the Word and feed thereon daily (and multiple times during the day).

The old man will make every excuse known to man to not read the Word.


The new man will spend time in prayer.

The old man will rationalize that there is no need to pray ... that an extra hour of sleep is needed. The flesh will make up things to do rather than pray.


The new man loves to do the Will of the Father.

The old man finds the commandments of God to be grievous (burdensome).

You are lining your thoughts - your mind, your thought processes - which was not born again so is not a part of that new man - to do those things that are pleasing unto God.

What???? I bolded what I am questioning in your statement above.

We're either born again or we're not born again.

If we're born again, we put off the old man and put on the new.

If we're not born again, we have no new man to put on.


And, sad to say, there are some people sitting in our churches who think they are born again. They are reading their bibles in an effort to clean up their old man (renew their mind) and they are not born again. They think they are, but they're not.


Again, the renewing of the mind spoken of in Rom 12:2 is not putting bible verses in our old man.


The renewing of the mind spoken of in Rom 12:2 is the mind of Christ.
The born again believer has the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.). Those who are not born again do not have the mind of Christ.

We do not automatically think the word, we do not automatically stop thinking - I'm angry, you make me mad, it's all about me, be prideful, all those things that we are told to put off - we are told to put off for a reason!! No need to tell us to put off these things if our mind is part of that new man; our inner man.

We are at an impasse again.

The old man is the old man.

The new man is the new man. Part of the new man is the mind of Christ. Bullinger describes the renewed mind of Rom 12:2 as "renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly"

It is a completely new mind. The renewed mind is not the old man with a veneer of Bible verses.

Our minds are renewed to the extent that we have absorbed the word . . .

If we find it is difficult to "absorb the Word", we can safely assume we have not put off the old man.

yes, the renewed mind is achieved and transformation occurs as we put on the new man which is renewed by knowledge of God.

YES!!!!

If I did not know that God wanted me to put away bitterness, wrath, anger, evil speaking, malice . . . I would live not thinking anything about it and live my life as I always did . . but since I know that is what God wants me to put away - I renew my mind to that and endeavor to live my life in that manner.

Bitterness, wrath, anger, evil speaking, malice (Eph 4:31) are works of the flesh. If we see these things in our life, we know that we have been drawn away from the new man and we are living in light of the old.


Kindness, tenderhearted, forgiving (Eph 4:32) are new man realities. If we see these things in our life, we know we have put off the old man and are living exactly where God wants us to live … in the new man.


Did you know that when we are living in the new man, no bitterness or wrath or anger or evil speaking or malice is a part of us?


We may see something and feel an urge to become bitter or angry. But we do not have to follow that urge to its full conclusion. We can decide to continue our walk in the new man, our minds fully renewed to the things of God.


To continue in the new man is not me "renewing my mind".


To continue in the new man is me not walking in the old man.

The new man, that new creation within the born again believer, is perfect.

yes, but I have to work at being obedient. Thank God he only sees "Christ in me", the inner man, the new man which he created in me!!!

All you have to do is remain in the new man. Do not be drawn away into the old habits where you have to "work at being obedient".


The new man knows how to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

The new man knows to read Scripture.

The new man loves to spend time in prayer.

The new man does not find the commandments of God to be burdensome.


It is not a burden to read Scripture or pray or follow the Lord Jesus Christ to the new man.

Yep . . . the old man lusts against the new man - so sometimes and especially if I do not renew my mind to God's word - I cannot do the things that I want and do not do the things that I want. How exactly does the old man lust against the new man? It is a mental battle within ourselves for the old man and the new man are contrary one to the other. The old man rears its head - the old man that gets angry, gets mad, is selfish, is prideful and if I don't renew my mind to put that old man away - (to put away anger, malice, pride, etc.) and put on the new man - (be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, walk in love, edify others with my speech) then I continue to walk in the flesh instead of the spirit. It doesn't come automatically - at least it didn't for me.

When we try to put away anger, malice, pride, etc., we are treating symptoms and not the cause.

The cause of anger, malice, pride, etc. is the old man. These things are inherent within the old man. To get rid of anger, malice, pride, etc., put off the old man.


The cause of kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, walk in love, edify others with speech is the new man. These things are inherent in the new.


As we grow up and mature in Christ, those things that used to rise up in us just seem to melt away. We get to the point where our fellowship with Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is more dear to us than the anger, malice, pride, etc. So we die to those things and remain steadfast and unmoveable in the new man.

My mind sure didn't change when I was born again . . .

I believe God gave you a new mind when you were born again. However, there were habit patterns developed over a period of time before being born again. Sometimes we fall back on those old habits until we learn to walk in the new man.

When we look at babies who are learning to walk, they stumble around before they learn to take steps. Then they take a few steps and a few more. Their balance gets better and they learn to walk longer and faster, even to the point of running.

Same with us, spiritually speaking.

That is why we need to help each other in our walks in this life. When we bring others to Christ, let them walk on our feet until they learn to walk on their own. I remember when my kids were babies, I'd put their feet on my feet and I'd hold their hands and I would walk with them. After a while, I'd hold their hands and have them walk with their feet on the floor. After a while, I'd hold one hand. After a while, I'd let go and they would take a few steps on their own. We need to do the same with newborn babes in Christ. We can't leave them to their own devices. satan will surely come in and wreak havoc in their lives.

I am changed on the inside - I am a new creation on the inside . . . God has placed his desires in me to want to please him but if I don't know anything about God - which knowledge has to do with God's word - then I won't know how to put off the old and put on the new. God's word tells me how to get that new man to the outside so that others can see the Christ in me! . . it's called "renewing the mind" and act accordingly.

You say that "God has placed His desires in [you] to want to please Him".

And that is absolutely correct.

God does that.

All we do is not hinder that process. We hinder the process by continuing to live in light of who we were in Adam (the old man).

 

[Miri]

It helps to even trust Him to be able to deny yourself as able to follow Him ( crucifying our religious flesh ) to rely on Him as our Good Shepherd all the time to follow Him. It is why it is simply written that the just shall live by faith... in Jesus Christ.

Luke 9:[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, [9] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [10] For we are
His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared
beforehand that we should walk in them.




Grace - God's riches at Christ's expense.
Or getting what we don't deserve instead of getting what we do deserve.

Faith
Hebrews 11:1 AMPC
[1] NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things
we hope for, being the proof of things we do not see and the conviction of their
reality faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses.



We look to all that God has done for us with a certainty of heart that He is
more than enough for us in all that He has done. That we just have to walk
in it and appropriate it.

He has done it all, we walk in it with the help of the God the Holy Spirit,
living on the inside of us.

I woke up feeling preachy this morning.


Sorry for the long intro but it's worth the wait.


[video]https://youtu.be/uPdN4U_MLTo[/video]

 

[brighthouse98]

Brother unobtrusive,if you do not act upon what you know, who will?( James 1:22)The Lord has already done everything he is ever going to do for the believer.( 2 peter 1:3-11!!) Rom 12:2 is clearly explained by the very next verse, verse 3! God has allotted to each a measure of faith,what you do with that measure the Lord has given each one of us is shown by perfect example in ( matt 25:14-30)

Believing is the only work we the believer have to preform ourself.( John 6:28-29) Hope this helps you bro. Sure has helped me!! Staying in God's Word daily keeps the new creatures mind renewed in who gave us life to start with!( 2 Cor 4:17-20) A new creature learns,they mature in both grace and knowledge!( 2 peter 3:18)

A new creature begins to be new when there mind becomes new! For all sin enters through the mind first,and if one entertains those thoughts long enough action is, then taken,and so it is by keeping God's Word ready always in our mindset for this is the weapon we have from the Lord to destroy fortresses our flesh loves for our mind to entertain!( 2 Cor 10:4-7!!) Blessing bro!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

* Apologies in advance for the length of this reply to peacefulbeliever. However, she and I are dealing with many issues relating to the renewed mind, the "old man", the "new man", the believer's walk in Christ, etc. I appreciate the demeanor of peacefulbeliever. She and I are discussing with the respect each of us deserves as children of God. Thank you, peacefulbeliever.

I also looked up Bullinger's definition. Here is the full definition of anakainósis as shown in his Fourth Edition, Revised, MDCCCXCV (1895):

"renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly"​

In the new man, we have the mind of Christ. It is what Bullinger refers to as "other and different from that which had been formerly".

"That which had been formerly" is the old man.

Is the new man not perfect?
We both agree God creates the new man within the born again believer.

Yes, "different from that which had been formerly" is the old man.
Yes, the new man is perfect.
Yes, God created (birthed) the new man within the born again believer.

I do not believe we are in agreement that the new man includes the mind of Christ.

Questions:

Who causes the growth as we continue to feed on the Word of God?

Do we grow ourselves? Or does God grow us, as He brings the increase?

Do we conform ourselves to the image of Christ? Or is it God (Who is at work within us) Who conforms us to the image of His Son?

1) We do - it is a command to us - be transformed by the renewing of your mind. If it is something God does upon the new birth - He wouldn't tell us to do it.
2) The growth happens as we renew our mind - "upgrade" our thinking from the old man to the new man. As we bring what has occurred on the inside to the outside.
3) As we bring our new man to the forefront within our thoughts and actions, we become more like Christ.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. . . . it is a work in process.
What do you think a "carnal" Christian is? It is one who has been born again but has not renewed his mind to the point to where he is transformed.

Again, I see this a little differently than you do and I have explained this numerous times in this thread. Obviously you and in are not in agreement concerning this point.

Yes. So how are you going to make it "more perfect"?

Putting on the new man does not make it more perfect. It already is perfect.

Yes, the new man is perfect . . . putting on the new man is "upgrading" my thoughts to be transformed into the image of Christ. We are born dominated by our sinful nature - when we are born again and have the new nature of Christ within us - God commands us to put off the old nature and put on the new. This does not come naturally - that is why we have to change our character and our actions and live like the children of God we are. The inner man, the new nature, does influence us toward godliness, just as our old man influences us toward selfishness. That is what Paul is speaking of in Galatians - the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit lusts against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that you cannot do the things that you would.

I do agree that when we are first born again we are "babes in Christ" and in need of the sincere milk of the word as shown in 1 Peter 2:2. And as we feed on that milk of the Word, we grow spiritually, from babes in Christ (1 Peter 2:2) to no longer children, tossed to a fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine (Eph 4:14) to of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil (Heb 5:14).

And again, Who causes the growth? Do we?

All we can do is feed on that sincere milk of the Word and, as we grow stronger therein (which is something God works within us as He brings increase) not allow ourselves to be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine, and, in addition, have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil in order to recognize those things which are thrown at us and which are designed to have us conform to this world.

We can read the word of God all day long, every day, but if we do not apply it, if we do not renew (upgrade) our thinking to be in alignment, if we do not put off the old man and put on the new man created in righteousness - we will NOT grow.

Our part in the whole equation of growing up/maturing is put off the old man and put on the new man.

That's called renewing our minds . . .

The new man will desire the sincere milk of the Word and feed thereon daily (and multiple times during the day).

The old man will make every excuse known to man to not read the Word.
The new man will spend time in prayer.

The old man will rationalize that there is no need to pray ... that an extra hour of sleep is needed. The flesh will make up things to do rather than pray.

The new man loves to do the Will of the Father.

The old man finds the commandments of God to be grievous (burdensome).

Well, now I know I still have work to do!!! I have a prayer journal - I haven't entered a prayer in it in a couple of days. Did my new man remind me? Yep . . . shameful to say but yep. Now, if I automatically have the "mind of Christ", why didn't I automatically obey? Because I allowed my "old man" to overrule that "new man" inside me. Is my desire to do the will of my heavenly Father - sure it is but I don't always do it. And if I am totally honest . . . it happens more than I truly want it to.

What???? I bolded what I am questioning in your statement above.

We're either born again or we're not born again.

If we're born again, we put off the old man and put on the new.

If we're not born again, we have no new man to put on.
And, sad to say, there are some people sitting in our churches who think they are born again. They are reading their bibles in an effort to clean up their old man (renew their mind) and they are not born again. They think they are, but they're not.

IOW - My MIND, my way of thinking was NOT changed when I was born again - that is why we are commanded to put off the old and put on the new - put off the old man that still has the "fleshly thinking" and put on the new man which has the mind of Christ.

Again, the renewing of the mind spoken of in Rom 12:2 is not putting bible verses in our old man.

The renewing of the mind spoken of in Rom 12:2 is the mind of Christ.
The born again believer has the mind of Christ (1 Cor 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.). Those who are not born again do not have the mind of Christ.

We are at an impasse again.

The old man is the old man.

The new man is the new man. Part of the new man is the mind of Christ. Bullinger describes the renewed mind of Rom 12:2 as "renewal, renovation, a making other and different from that which had been formerly"

It is a completely new mind. The renewed mind is not the old man with a veneer of Bible verses.

If we find it is difficult to "absorb the Word", we can safely assume we have not put off the old man.

YES!!!!

Bitterness, wrath, anger, evil speaking, malice (Eph 4:31) are works of the flesh. If we see these things in our life, we know that we have been drawn away from the new man and we are living in light of the old.

Kindness, tenderhearted, forgiving (Eph 4:32) are new man realities. If we see these things in our life, we know we have put off the old man and are living exactly where God wants us to live … in the new man.

Did you know that when we are living in the new man, no bitterness or wrath or anger or evil speaking or malice is a part of us?

We may see something and feel an urge to become bitter or angry. But we do not have to follow that urge to its full conclusion. We can decide to continue our walk in the new man, our minds fully renewed to the things of God.

To continue in the new man is not me "renewing my mind".

To continue in the new man is me not walking in the old man.

Whew, I was beginning to wonder if you ever had any battles to overcome!! Yep, we do get those urges to be angry, bitter towards either something that happened in our lives in the past or something that is going on now, to be unhospitable, to be selfish, and a bunch of other things and these habits originate in our thinking, . . . the old man rearing its head and we have to renew our minds to what the word of God says concerning this anger, bitterness - if I didn't know that I was to not think more highly of myself than I ought, that I was to be kindly affectionate to one another, honor one another, not slothful in business, fervent in spirit, rejoicing in hope, continuing in prayer, give to the necessity of the saints, etc. - these things are not my gut, automatic response - I have to renew my mind to these things. I have to keep these things in mind in order to transform my character to be more like Christ.

All you have to do is remain in the new man. Do not be drawn away into the old habits where you have to "work at being obedient".

The new man knows how to follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

The new man knows to read Scripture.

The new man loves to spend time in prayer.

The new man does not find the commandments of God to be burdensome.

It is not a burden to read Scripture or pray or follow the Lord Jesus Christ to the new man.

Yep . . to all the above. That is any born again believers goal to reach - to be able to constantly walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.

When we try to put away anger, malice, pride, etc., we are treating symptoms and not the cause.

The cause of anger, malice, pride, etc. is the old man. These things are inherent within the old man. To get rid of anger, malice, pride, etc., put off the old man.

The cause of kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, walk in love, edify others with speech is the new man. These things are inherent in the new.

As we grow up and mature in Christ, those things that used to rise up in us just seem to melt away. We get to the point where our fellowship with Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is more dear to us than the anger, malice, pride, etc. So we die to those things and remain steadfast and unmoveable in the new man.

I believe that this is a life long process. Sometimes when you think you have conquered something in your life . . . oops - there is that irate customer you have to deal with at work, there is that car that cuts you off in traffic, there is that person who comes along and whose personality just grates on your nerves . . . Truthfully, what is your first thought? I bet it ain't "well, bless your heart" . . .
And yet even though that old man may rear its head, your relationship with the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is still more dear than all that that may have happened . . . Thank God he knows we are but dust and his grace carries us as we deal with our weaknesses!

I believe God gave you a new mind when you were born again. However, there were habit patterns developed over a period of time before being born again. Sometimes we fall back on those old habits until we learn to walk in the new man.

When we look at babies who are learning to walk, they stumble around before they learn to take steps. Then they take a few steps and a few more. Their balance gets better and they learn to walk longer and faster, even to the point of running.

Same with us, spiritually speaking.

That is why we need to help each other in our walks in this life. When we bring others to Christ, let them walk on our feet until they learn to walk on their own. I remember when my kids were babies, I'd put their feet on my feet and I'd hold their hands and I would walk with them. After a while, I'd hold their hands and have them walk with their feet on the floor. After a while, I'd hold one hand. After a while, I'd let go and they would take a few steps on their own. We need to do the same with newborn babes in Christ. We can't leave them to their own devices. satan will surely come in and wreak havoc in their lives.

You say that "God has placed His desires in [you] to want to please Him".

And that is absolutely correct.

God does that.

All we do is not hinder that process. We hinder the process by continuing to live in light of who we were in Adam (the old man).

We hinder the process by continuing to walk in the flesh . . . how to we get away from that? by being transformed by the renewing of our minds. And again, I believe it is a life long process to become more like Christ. I believe that my "new man", the Spirit within me, has the mind of Christ but I still have the mind of the "old man". I have to renew my thoughts - those immediate thoughts that do not consistently line up with my "new man" - I have to "cast down imaginations (thoughts)and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ" - that is renewing your mind. . . .

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Psalm 104:30
Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Psalm 51:10
Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 4:16
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

Isaiah 40:13-14
Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counseller hath taught him?
14With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

[video=youtube;Ga6Qtxzd6vk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga6Qtxzd6vk[/video]
​

 

[Enow]

Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV
[8] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, [9] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [10] For we are
His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared
beforehand that we should walk in them.




Grace - God's riches at Christ's expense.
Or getting what we don't deserve instead of getting what we do deserve.

Faith
Hebrews 11:1 AMPC
[1] NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things
we hope for, being the proof of things we do not see and the conviction of their
reality faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses.



We look to all that God has done for us with a certainty of heart that He is
more than enough for us in all that He has done. That we just have to walk
in it and appropriate it.

He has done it all, we walk in it with the help of the God the Holy Spirit,
living on the inside of us.

I woke up feeling preachy this morning.


Sorry for the long intro but it's worth the wait.


[video]https://youtu.be/uPdN4U_MLTo[/video]

Hebrews 11:[SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

That we walk in Him and appropriate Him by applying faith in Him as our Good Shepherd and Enabler to follow Him.

It is not looking to ourselves in being "serious" to God in following Him, but applying faith in Him in how He is serious to us in helping us to follow Him. That is why little children are free to come to Him and why the poor in spirit are blessed because all they can do is surrender and trust the Lord for everything, and not just for their salvation.