Is the right baptism necessary for salvation?

[phil112]

Sorry to go off topic, but couldn't ignore this comment. It's not scriptural and is the view held by some of the false religious systems that believe salvation must be maintained through works or otherwise be lost.

Do you forget that it's Christ who paid our sin debt with His blood? And that "He who has begun a good work in us will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

When a child is disobedient they are disciplined by their father, not abandoned. And so it is with God.. but only if the person belongs to Him.

False religious systems? The bible? That's where I get my gospel. You want me to point out the dozens of places where God says you can lose your reward? Of course not. You are already aware of them. Anyone who follows the "once saved always saved" doctrine does so by knowingly rejecting clear scripture. I never said works wins you salvation. As a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. Works aren't needed for salvation. Obedience is. If you don't believe that there is something seriously wrong with your bible knowledge.

As far as your father/son anology, it only covers one scenario. The other scenario, absolute rebellion of the child, results in disinheritance. If you will take a moment to recall, the prodigal son came back. The father did not chase him.

If you don't believe we are our own free moral agents you don't understand the fact that heaven or hell is a choice we make.

 

[phil112]

Originally Posted by phil112

But, once you are saved and fail to do so, you are now in disobedience to God, and that can cost you your salvation.

Sorry to go off topic, but couldn't ignore this comment. It's not scripturaland is the view held by some of the false religious systems that believe salvation must be maintained through works or otherwise be lost........................

Further more, I didn't state that as an absolute. I said that it can cost you your salvation. You need to improve your reading comprehension and stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[notuptome]

Further more, I didn't state that as an absolute. I said that it can cost you your salvation. You need to improve your reading comprehension and stop putting words in my mouth.

Clarify for me. What is the minimum that must be done to remain saved verses what is insufficient to keep me saved. How much disobedience is required to lose ones salvation?

Did the man in 1 Corinthians 5 lose his salvation? He was disobedient to the point where Paul said have nothing to do with him and pray to God for his flesh to be delivered to satan.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[phil112]

Clarify for me. What is the minimum that must be done to remain saved verses what is insufficient to keep me saved. How much disobedience is required to lose ones salvation? ......................

Ask God. Or, better yet, since you are being so facetious about it, just start disobeying God and see for yourself. Go ahead, you think that if you didn't love your brother, your neighbor, instead snarled at them, lied to them, cheated them, you would be okay? Tell ya what, you go ahead and put yourself in deliberate disobedience to God. Let us know how that works out for ya....oh wait, we'll know the same time you will, never mind.

 

[Josh321]

False religious systems? The bible? That's where I get my gospel. You want me to point out the dozens of places where God says you can lose your reward? Of course not. You are already aware of them. Anyone who follows the "once saved always saved" doctrine does so by knowingly rejecting clear scripture. I never said works wins you salvation. As a matter of fact, I said just the opposite. Works aren't needed for salvation. Obedience is. If you don't believe that there is something seriously wrong with your bible knowledge.

As far as your father/son anology, it only covers one scenario. The other scenario, absolute rebellion of the child, results in disinheritance. If you will take a moment to recall, the prodigal son came back. The father did not chase him.

If you don't believe we are our own free moral agents you don't understand the fact that heaven or hell is a choice we make.

Brother phil, we gotta be very careful of what scriptures we read and apply for ourselves some scriptures are directly spoken too to the house of israel, atleast consider this, we know that God simply cannot say one thing one place and something totally differet the other place is that true? it must be the same thing from genesis to revelation, now i want you to notice this

[h=3]John 3:15[/h]King James Version (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.


now these are not my words, brother, but as you can see here, whoever receives christ should not perish, it never said should not perish until you slip up, or die in Sin, the only way to be separated from God is if someone dies in Sin but a believer cannot Sin for the seed of God is within him, so a believer is not judged on the outward man but the inner man, weather he has the holy spirit or not


[h=3]1 John 3:9[/h]King James Version (KJV)

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


[h=3]Romans 8:1[/h]King James Version (KJV)

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


to condemned is to be meet damnation and i think that is pretty clear, now the question is how do we know we have Christ, Christ is so hard to find in this day, because people corrupted the system of God, that is the only way to come in to condemnation if you do not have the holy spirit, but we see these scriptures and then we see these other scriptures that is where confusion comes, and we really need to the holy spirit to truly understand what is happening, for he interprets the bible the right and only way, i'll continue in another post of the other side so this does not seem too long to read

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok well this has been on my mind for the whole day so just wanted to show everyone what the scripture said on this matter, is the right baptism necessary for receiving the holy spirit and your salvation, can the wrong baptism keep you from receiving the holy spirit? let us take a look into the holy word of God for the answer, he that has an ear to hear let him hear, and may God show you the right thing to do through his holy word,

now notice what Jesus said before he departed

Matthew 28:19

King James Version (KJV)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


now notice here that in name here is singular, it is not literally telling you to do it in father son holy spirit, and who is that name? Jesus Christ, but don't take my word for it brothers and sisters, i want you to notice now... pay very close attention to this, after Jesus had commanded the disciples to do this, notice this is after Jesus had left the earth and went to be at the right side of our Father God


Acts 2:37-38

King James Version (KJV)

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.




do you see what i mean that " in the name " was singular and what it really meant don't take my word for it, it is right there for you to see, and notice NOT ONE PERSON in the bible was baptized in the name of the father son and holy spirit, if you can show me that i will admit that i am wrong, but if you can't just follow the word not my sayings i'm only pointing it out, NOW to the important question can having the WRONG baptism cause you not receive the holy spirit? now listen to this God does not change, if he did something one way back in the day it MUST be the same exact thing in THIS day, lets go to God's holy word to find the answer

Acts 19:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

i want you to look closely at this now, NOTICE they BELIEVED in Jesus, but DID not receive the holy ghost, why was that? let's see the next question that was asked brothers and sisters


Acts 19:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.


do you see where the question ended up? unto WHAT then were ye baptized, and they said John's baptism,




Acts 19:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.




Do you see it friends? how important the right baptism is? AS THEY WERE baptized in Jesus Name they RECEIVE the holy ghost, now.. if back in the day the people had to be baptized in Jesus name, then the holy spirit came on them, when they were baptized in the name of Jesus christ, it WILL be the SAME exact thing THIS DAY, i pray that this may touch someone's heart and let them rethink things, he that have an ear to hear let him hear! God bless everyone

The problem is gentiles recieved the HS just as Peter had, only they had not been baptized yet. Water baptism is only a NT equivalent of circumcision which represented washing or being cleansed. It is a symbol of our spiritual baptism into Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

not gonna argue with anyone.. but as you saw for yourselves, they were some who did not receive the holy spirit because they were not baptized in jesus name and as they went and got baptized in Jesus name they received the holy spirit, if you don't want to accept that ok, but it's the written word of God not what i said, but they are some who receive the holy spirit before and then went and got baptized in Jesus name

Not going to argue either.

But those baptized in John were still under Johns gospel of repentance, and had not yet heard of WHat Christ did. that is what was different.

 

[Josh321]

matthew 24, is directly being spoken too to the house of israel

[h=3]Matthew 24:15-22[/h]King James Version (KJV)

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.




who is them being spoken of here? well it's the chosen 144 000 brothers, the moment you see the pope standing in israel and the 7 year tribulation begin just know you have missed the rapture and when you see these 2 end time prophets come on the scene just know the fullness of the gentiles had already come to and end and not a soul will be saved, for that is when God stops dealing with the gentiles and goes back to deal with his people, and people may cry all they want it's going to be too late for God doesn't deal with israel and the gentiles at the same time he deals with them one at a time, and when this age of the gentiles has finish, no gentiles will be saved anymore God will be off of the mercy seat and on the judgement seat

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is the baptism without human hands that is necessary...

Romans 6:3-5 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Amen, This is HS Baptism, were we were washed and regenerated, not by a work of righteousness (which water baptism is) but by the HS. (titus 3: 5)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

yes brother there is 2 kind of baptism, baptism of the holy spirit and baptism in the water, if water baptism wasn't necessary why did Jesus say to do it, and why did the apostles commanded people to be baptized in Jesus name?

Hey brother.

Jesus commanded us to take the Lords supper. To not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. To observe all he commanded us, Right along with the command to be baptized. Do any of them save us? Or are they commands to show forth work of being a new creature in Christ?

 

[Josh321]

The problem is gentiles recieved the HS just as Peter had, only they had not been baptized yet. Water baptism is only a NT equivalent of circumcision which represented washing or being cleansed. It is a symbol of our spiritual baptism into Christ.

Brother eg, if the right baptism was not needed for salvation the apostles would NEVER command the people to receive it, and if we look at the people that were under the wrong baptism they DID NOT receive the holy spirit, because they did not had the right baptism, that is why paul asked IMMEDIATELY after they said, they had not RECEIVE the holy spirit, the very next thing he asked was 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

brother if baptism was not important or necessary paul would not have asked them unto what they were baptized, God bless

 

[eternally-gratefull]

ok i know that brother but all i'm saying is according to the acts we read, those people did not receive the holy spirit because they were baptized in the wrong baptism that's all i'm saying, if you disagree with me brother well then you can tell me your interpretation of what this scripture is saying because that is what i see here i'm highlight it for you i'm sure you will see the same thing also

Acts 19:2-6

King James Version (KJV)

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.



notice how the jump directly to what name were they baptized under? soon as they said they believe in Jesus but did not receive the holy spirit, as they said that paul ask them unto what they were baptised in, do you see it brother?

You forget acts 10 and 11:

Acts 10: 44 - 48 ?? While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 11: 15- 17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If herefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God??”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Josh, it isn't necessary for salvation. It gets into a disobedience thing to not do it. Some say, "Do I have to get baptized to be saved?" No, you don't. No more than you have to wash your brothers feet or remember the Lords supper to be saved. But, once you are saved and fail to do so, you are now in disobedience to God, and that can cost you your salvation.

so we are under law and not under Grace? Since when?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother eg, if the right baptism was not needed for salvation the apostles would NEVER command the people to receive it, and if we look at the people that were under the wrong baptism they DID NOT receive the holy spirit, because they did not had the right baptism, that is why paul asked IMMEDIATELY after they said, they had not RECEIVE the holy spirit, the very next thing he asked was 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

brother if baptism was not important or necessary paul would not have asked them unto what they were baptized, God bless

Brother, if water baptism was necessary, Then these gentiles did not recieve the HS. and scripture is a lie. we might as well throw it out.

Hebrews says their is one baptism one faith.

Which baptism?

In water, No matter whose name" or of the HS (spiritual baptism)

 

[Josh321]

Hey brother.

Jesus commanded us to take the Lords supper. To not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. To observe all he commanded us, Right along with the command to be baptized. Do any of them save us? Or are they commands to show forth work of being a new creature in Christ?

that was never commanded as a means for salvatio.. take a look at this brother eg, [h=3]John 3:5[/h]King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


[h=3]1 John 5:8[/h]King James Version (KJV)

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


cannot separate them brother, it is the right perscription for salvation

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that was never commanded as a means for salvatio.. take a look at this brother eg, John 3:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


1 John 5:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


cannot separate them brother, it is the right perscription for salvation

John 3: 5 is not talking about baptism my friend.

the water = flesh (physical birth) the spirit = spirit (spiritual birth) which represents being born again. (the first and the second)

If John 3 was water Jesus would have said "believe and be baptised" in John 3: 16. He did not. He said ony those who have FAITH in him will have eternal life. Why did Jesus leave such an important aspect out if water baptism was essential. There is NO WAY to say Nicodemous would have assumbed baptism when he heard the word water. Thats adding to the word of God.

 

[Josh321]

You forget acts 10 and 11:

Acts 10: 44 - 48 ?? While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days.

Acts 11: 15- 17 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 If herefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God??”

notice they receive the holy spirit and they were never baptized before as yet but they still got baptized in Jesus name and notice the other people brother, they did not receive the holy spirit because of the WRONG baptism is that true or not? because they were under the wrong baptism they did not receive the holy spirit, sorry my net had cut out for a while, but brother if that happen back in the day it has to happen in this day also, when people adulterate the word of God and go baptizing people in the name of the father son holy spirit, when not one single person in the bible was baptized like that, and we ask ourselves why is the church so clueless and fall away, and why no one is being born again anymore in the churches, get rid of your creeds and stick to the word of God, God's plan is eternal and infinite our minds cannot comprehend that, that God does the same thing he did back in the day in this very day also, but we have to stick to the RIGHT perscription, in other to cure the disease of Sin and condemnation

 

[Josh321]

there baptism of the holy spirit and water baptism, that was the last thing God commanded the disciples to do to baptize the people, so it must be important to salvation, and if you do receive Christ before you are baptized, you will still end up being baptized in Jesus Name, like how the gentiles who were never baptized was baptized in Jesus name

 

[endtimes]

John 3: 5 is not talking about baptism my friend.

the water = flesh (physical birth) the spirit = spirit (spiritual birth) which represents being born again. (the first and the second)

If John 3 was water Jesus would have said "believe and be baptised" in John 3: 16. He did not. He said ony those who have FAITH in him will have eternal life. Why did Jesus leave such an important aspect out if water baptism was essential. There is NO WAY to say Nicodemous would have assumbed baptism when he heard the word water. Thats adding to the word of God.

For Jesus to have meant that the water was of Physical Birth, would be a redundant statement such as I would say "Nicodemous, you must first be born from your mother's womb, so that you may grow up and stand before me so that I may say to you that you must first be born of your mother's womb."

We can see the redundancy of such a scenario to whom was the religious leader of that day. Clearly scripture supports beyond a shadow of doubt that water = water baptism.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:24, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

If we are to take up our cross and follow Jesus we would have to do what he did. We would have to symbolize his death, burial, and resurrection.

1. Repent = death
2. Be water baptized = burial
3. Receive Holy Spirit = resurrection


Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

 

[endtimes]

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.