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obedienttogod

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Jan 3, 2019
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Abraham was born in 2322 BC. Small correction to your post.
Exodus occurred in 1605 BC incidentally....


I was using this even though it goes against typical biblical timeline, but there is evidence to believe as such:

Abraham.gif

Two separate studies have dated Abraham to sometime during the Early Dynastic or the Old Kingdom periods in Egypt. John Ashton and David Down (2006) have dated him to the Fourth Dynasty while this author (McClellan 2011, p. 155) has given a range of dates from the 2nd–6th Dynasties.7 Placing Abraham in this earlier period in Egyptian history also forces Abraham to be dated significantly earlier in Mesopotamian history.

This places Abraham around Early Dynastic I (2900 - 2750 BC) - Early Dynastic II (2750 - 2600 BC), it's based off when Berin was king of Sodom.
 

obedienttogod

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Jan 3, 2019
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And I would encourage you to believe whatever you learn from reading the scripture. But IMO when you take your opinion and use it against others to decide if they are Christian you destroy their free will to make their own decisions.

also i am means i existed, or in other words beforte Abraham i exist. many sects believed in pre existence at that time.
Where did I say you was not saved by not believing Jesus is God? I am just providing scripture to show there is proof that He is God!!



This one:

are you not saying you are lead by the spirit here?
I would not comprehend scripture as I do unless I was being led by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit within me gives me the guidance in such matters.


None the less we do not have a Hebrew souce text to compare with your theory. Your theory is based on a non existence text.
My theory is based upon logic and common sense. They were Jews who had the Hebrew written scrolls. They had the language that Moses spoke and wrote with. It's not as much of a stretch as you believe knowing they had the original scrolls to format their own writing to.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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Where did I say you was not saved by not believing Jesus is God? I am just providing scripture to show there is proof that He is God!!
i never mentioned salvation.
we were talking about what Christians should and should not believe. if you dont believe (input doctrine here) your not a Christian. this is what i dont agree with.
the trinity is a doctrine, not a command from the Most High. Jesus may be the Most High, im not saying its one way or the other. but its not plainly stated in scripture and its not right to judge someone "not a Christian" for not believing something not plainly stated in scripture.
doctrines are not the same as scripture. doctrines have been wrong in the past. once there was a doctrine that the earth was the center of the universe, if you questioned this doctrine you could be killed over it. just as there was also doctrins that justified the killing of native americans.


I would not comprehend scripture as I do unless I was being led by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit within me gives me the guidance in such matters
we should all be lead by the spirit, where it leads you is between you and the Lord. the spirit IMO is not sent to force ones will over others.

My theory is based upon logic and common sense. They were Jews who had the Hebrew written scrolls. They had the language that Moses spoke and wrote with. It's not as much of a stretch as you believe knowing they had the original scrolls to format their own writing to
its a very sound argument, i think you may be right. but we still do not have a hebrew NT manuscript from that time period to confirm what your saying.
 

obedienttogod

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Jan 3, 2019
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i never mentioned salvation.
we were talking about what Christians should and should not believe. if you dont believe (input doctrine here) your not a Christian. this is what i dont agree with.
the trinity is a doctrine, not a command from the Most High. Jesus may be the Most High, im not saying its one way or the other. but its not plainly stated in scripture and its not right to judge someone "not a Christian" for not believing something not plainly stated in scripture.
doctrines are not the same as scripture. doctrines have been wrong in the past. once there was a doctrine that the earth was the center of the universe, if you questioned this doctrine you could be killed over it. just as there was also doctrins that justified the killing of native americans.
I do not conform to any one doctrine, myself. I believe the scriptures have levels of understanding and generally that develops due to experience in your walk in God, reading the WORD, praying and seeking for the absolute truth, and taking what others offer and studying that.. which at times, does lead to a new and better understanding. Some things do appear to be obvious, and others things are a definite mystery until the prophesy is actually fulfilled.

Personally, I do have an answer for many things based upon how I view the WORD, but I am also a full time student trying to learn something new, a greater insight to what I believe I already understand, and even though I wished I knew it all..I still look for that subject matter to which I am far from completely comprehending
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we should all be lead by the spirit, where it leads you is between you and the Lord. the spirit IMO is not sent to force ones will over others.
Agreed!!

But still, scripture has a purpose for us all. And when it's broken down into simplistic terms, you must stand firm on what you do understand until someone else can see it for themselves. And how I broke down Jesus is claiming He is God in the simplest terms, I will not back away whether it is accepted or not. He flat out said it. And there is no reason to not believe Him. That is just how I feel. And that is not pressuring anyone, because I am using His own words to make that claim
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its a very sound argument, i think you may be right. but we still do not have a hebrew NT manuscript from that time period to confirm what your saying.
We do have fragments. And a fragment is a small section from something that is obviously bigger. But other than that much, that is all the proof I do have to offer.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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But still, scripture has a purpose for us all. And when it's broken down into simplistic terms, you must stand firm on what you do understand until someone else can see it for themselves. And how I broke down Jesus is claiming He is God in the simplest terms, I will not back away whether it is accepted or not. He flat out said it. And there is no reason to not believe Him. That is just how I feel. And that is not pressuring anyone, because I am using His own words to make that claim.
if you want to believe in the trinity you should be free to do so. there are passages that support it, and i dont proclaim it to be a false teaching, i believe all biblical views should be looked at to establish truth, however there are many passages that contradict it, those passages are most always ignored and many that have tried to present them are banned from this site, so its pretty much an argument i am not even allowed to present. 100 years ago it was against secular law (USA not every state) to not believe it, 500 years ago they burned you alive for not believing it. i dont remember Jesus or the 12 using government authority to force people against their will to believe their teachings.
 

obedienttogod

Active member
Jan 3, 2019
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if you want to believe in the trinity you should be free to do so. there are passages that support it, and i dont proclaim it to be a false teaching, i believe all biblical views should be looked at to establish truth, however there are many passages that contradict it, those passages are most always ignored and many that have tried to present them are banned from this site, so its pretty much an argument i am not even allowed to present. 100 years ago it was against secular law (USA not every state) to not believe it, 500 years ago they burned you alive for not believing it. i dont remember Jesus or the 12 using government authority to force people against their will to believe their teachings.


Personally, I do not agree with how most view our Triune God. I say Triune God, because it is rather conclusive that God has 3 distinct functioning characteristics about Him. He is my Father, although it may be adopted, but nonetheless, He see's me as His own and I see Him as my birthright provider for being His. The Holy Spirit lives in me, which is my direct link to my Father, God. Yeshua (whose NAME is a form of Yahweh - Father), is more than just my Savior and Lord, He is my God!!

I do not see God as a figurehead, and from that we get the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. I see God as the Father, and from Him we get His Spirit and His WORD. Most believe in 3 separate persons, but nowhere does scripture claim this anywhere. What scripture does claim is that God is a Spirit Being, with a personal Spirit (Holy Spirit), which is like our own spirit, but not capable of being extended and used like we see the Holy Spirit is used. And in the WORD, we see God in the form very much like we are. And we see this form as the (A)ngel of God, as Melchizedek, as a Burning Bush, as the Captain of God's army (Book of Joshua), as the 4th person in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego, and we see Him as Yeshua being the sacrifice for our sins - the conqueror of death and the grave by His resurrection.

Since God is first and foremost a Spirit Being, it's not beyond any limitations in any realm for Him to be, become anything He desires to fulfill His Will. He is God and capable of anything. When you consider He can just speak something into existence, makes it obvious that He can be One Person, having a personal (S)pirit, with His WORD being the contact point with His creation. We do not ever see the Spirit Person of God dealing with His creation. We do not see the Holy Spirit (Personal Spirit of God) functioning outside the realm of the spiritual.

But we do see the WORD functioning with the ability of the Spirit Person of God while possessing the power and anointing of God via the Holy Spirit. This is why we call Him the Christ, because in Him (the WORD), is both the Father (Person of God) and the Holy Spirit (personal (S)pirit of God) making the complete Godhead. However, it seems the WORD and Person of God cannot embody the personal Spirit of God, but the WORD and the personal Spirit of God can embody the Person of God. In the Book of Colossians, this is referred to as mirroring the image of God, in the Book of Hebrews, this is called the Express image of God. So clearly, the functioning Spirit of God is limited in its role, but it can accompany the Person of God to be in the WORD, and can accompany the WORD to be in the Person of God (I and my Father are One). Interesting that Jesus never says this of the Holy Spirit, since some believe the Holy Spirit is His Father. But just like the Holy Spirit lives in us, it implanted the seed of God into Mary like ((in vitro)). This did not mean the Holy Spirit was the actual Father.

But indeed, the whole of God, the functioning of God, the ability of God within His Triune Nature is a complete mystery that we will only know for certain when we make it heaven
.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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I honestly believe there is NO SIN a Christian "couldn't do". Maybe the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But i dont believe ANYONE can commit that sin today, because Jesus is not in the flesh on earth today.

The person who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in the Bible was not blaspheming Jesus.. They blasphemed the Holy Spirit..

People can indeed blaspheme the Holy Spirit these days because all True Christians are indwelled by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus had the Holy Spirit with Him..

If a person declares that a true Christian is possessed or a messenger of a demon when they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit then that person had blasphemed the Holy Spirit and will never be forgiven for doing so..

I just feel like its A LOT easier to clean the outside (meaning to cease from CERTAIN sins, from PHYSICALLY doing them) than it is to clean the INSIDE (the mind I mean by this)

I would really appreciate if some of the brethren could give me some ADVICE on this
My advice quickly stop yourself when your mind starts to wander into evil thoughts.. acknowledge your sin to God and thank His for the atonement of Jesus... No one except Jesus has lived a life without sin.. And if you ever hear someone declaring they do live without sin you can be assured they are a liar or delusional...
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Ok that’s odd . I don’t believe that what is in bold is distinctive of Reformed folks. Perhaps you have been talking to the wrong people. You stated that they all ways make things personal . That can be said about anyone not just the Reformed. Also that they consider faith works . That’s the furthest from the fact sir , perhaps it’s a case of mistaken identity.
Blessings
Bill
Ok.. Lets try to walk through this...

If i state that I must believe Jesus and I must have Faith ( trust ) in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. And that God does not force me to believe Jesus and does not force me to trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. Your standard T.U.L.I.P believing calvinist will then step in and say that no one is saved by works and that no one can believe God without God forcing them to do so and no one can trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ until God forces them to trust in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ...

That's why i repeatedly get the definition of Works from Calvinists that anything i do including believing and having Faith ( trusting) in the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ is Works... Calvinists state that the only people who believe Jesus and trust in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ do so because God forced them to do so by His overpowering mind control..

Thus i bring forth the Bible scriptures that make it clear that Faith is not a Work.. Therefore me making the choice to believe and trust in the LORD Jesus and the Atonement He secured for me is not a Work... But again i will get the opposing statement .. Nope you cannot chose to believe God and chose to have faith in what Jesus did to save you.. God forces some to believe and have faith and blocks others from believing and having faith..

So to state it another way:: calvinists will declare that my Belief and Faith are works because i claim that I believed and I had Faith..

Calvinists will state that their Belief and Faith are not Works because God took over their minds and forced them to believe and have Faith..

Ok i think i have painstakingly walked through the thoughts..

I am not being very successful in my desire to avoid entanglements with calvinists hey.. :rolleyes:.. :LOL:
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
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Faith is a noun not a verb . Also the Reformed view is that faith is a gift from God not your doing. Faith is something we are given not what we do . It’s not forced it’s a grace freely given by God . We were once dead in our trespasses slaves to sin . Faith is not mind control. It’s liberating. Also faith is more than mere belief. Even the demons fear and tremble. Yet they have no faith.
Not my words here this is close to summing up “Faith is not a work on two counts. First, it is a gift from God. It is not just received by grace, but is a grace. Faith is something God gives to us. On our own it is not possible, for we are dead in our trespasses and sins. And note that our faith has a specific object- as He is offered to us in the gospel.”
I am not going to argue about what I believe and understand I just want to explain our view .
My post is not intended to do that .
Blessings
Bill
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Ok.. Lets try to walk through this...

If i state that I must believe Jesus and I must have Faith ( trust ) in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. And that God does not force me to believe Jesus and does not force me to trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. Your standard T.U.L.I.P believing calvinist will then step in and say that no one is saved by works and that no one can believe God without God forcing them to do so and no one can trust in the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ until God forces them to trust in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ...

That's why i repeatedly get the definition of Works from Calvinists that anything i do including believing and having Faith ( trusting) in the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ is Works... Calvinists state that the only people who believe Jesus and trust in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ do so because God forced them to do so by His overpowering mind control..
Well, your above doesn't even make sense and is non sequitur. You appear very confused about the truth of what Calvinists believe because you've misrepresented their beliefs. How is it that you've gotten it completely wrong even after "over a decade" of debating them?

The above is more straw man arguments so until you argue against what the true beliefs are you'll merely continue to erect them and beat on them.

But allow me to throw this in there: What or who do you want "controlling" your mind (psyche), the flesh, or the Spirit? Note Romans 8:5-8. Let's not falsely use "force" but remain biblical instead. It is God who causes us to obey him; Philippians 2:11-13; Ezekiel 36:27; Psalm 23:2 -- it isn't "forced." Thank God, without his working in us to desire these things by his Spirit we would all continue to go astray!

For the record it must be noted that faith is God's gift and is not innate; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:19; Romans 12:3; Philippians 1:29 and comes from Christ, not within man; Acts 3:16; Romans 10:17. This doesn't imply "forced."

Thus i bring forth the Bible scriptures that make it clear that Faith is not a Work.. Therefore me making the choice to believe and trust in the LORD Jesus and the Atonement He secured for me is not a Work... But again i will get the opposing statement .. Nope you cannot chose to believe God and chose to have faith in what Jesus did to save you.. God forces some to believe and have faith and blocks others from believing and having faith..

So to state it another way:: calvinists will declare that my Belief and Faith are works because i claim that I believed and I had Faith..

Calvinists will state that their Belief and Faith are not Works because God took over their minds and forced them to believe and have Faith..

Ok i think i have painstakingly walked through the thoughts..

I am not being very successful in my desire to avoid entanglements with calvinists hey..
Yes, you've "painstakingly walked through the thoughts" which are an erroneous misrepresentation, and you've failed to provide any Scripture. Therefore they are just your thoughts.

Calvinists don't accuse you of works because you have faith. frankly that's a silly unfounded assertion. You're making many accusations that are false, yet that is all they are, there is no proof to your assertions. They in fact go against what we truly believe. The burden of proof lies upon you to prove your accusations.

No Calvinist believes faith is a work, no matter how you attempt to construe it that way. In fact we've provided evidence, and proof that refutes your assertions, but you fail to concede or accept that you're wrong. You've failed to prove your point.

Can we have you deal truthfully with what we say and believe, or are you to continue the above misrepresentations and pretend to have won some argument that is completely false? I mean, you're a Christian, right?

Well, we all know that all anti-Calvinists don't believe Christ is God, or that he resurrected. Just wanted to throw that out there. Now I'll begin to dismantle this belief, no matter how you attempt to prove it as false and not what you believe. I said they and you believe it, so that settles it. :whistle:
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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Well, your above doesn't even make sense and is non sequitur. You appear very confused about the truth of what Calvinists believe because you've misrepresented their beliefs. How is it that you've gotten it completely wrong even after "over a decade" of debating them?

The above is more straw man arguments so until you argue against what the true beliefs are you'll merely continue to erect them and beat on them.

But allow me to throw this in there: What or who do you want "controlling" your mind (psyche), the flesh, or the Spirit? Note Romans 8:5-8. Let's not falsely use "force" but remain biblical instead. It is God who causes us to obey him; Philippians 2:11-13; Ezekiel 36:27; Psalm 23:2 -- it isn't "forced." Thank God, without his working in us to desire these things by his Spirit we would all continue to go astray!

For the record it must be noted that faith is God's gift and is not innate; 1 Peter 1:3; Ephesians 1:19; Romans 12:3; Philippians 1:29 and comes from Christ, not within man; Acts 3:16; Romans 10:17. This doesn't imply "forced."



Yes, you've "painstakingly walked through the thoughts" which are an erroneous misrepresentation, and you've failed to provide any Scripture. Therefore they are just your thoughts.

Calvinists don't accuse you of works because you have faith. frankly that's a silly unfounded assertion. You're making many accusations that are false, yet that is all they are, there is no proof to your assertions. They in fact go against what we truly believe. The burden of proof lies upon you to prove your accusations.

No Calvinist believes faith is a work, no matter how you attempt to construe it that way. In fact we've provided evidence, and proof that refutes your assertions, but you fail to concede or accept that you're wrong. You've failed to prove your point.

Can we have you deal truthfully with what we say and believe, or are you to continue the above misrepresentations and pretend to have won some argument that is completely false? I mean, you're a Christian, right?

Well, we all know that all anti-Calvinists don't believe Christ is God, or that he resurrected. Just wanted to throw that out there. Now I'll begin to dismantle this belief, no matter how you attempt to prove it as false and not what you believe. I said they and you believe it, so that settles it. :whistle:
Well i did try.. And i knew a calvinist could not go through a post without launching a totally unjustified personal attack..

"""Well, we all know that all anti-Calvinists don't believe Christ is God, or that he resurrected. Just wanted to throw that out there. """

And people wonder why i find any discussion with a calvinist a toxic experience..

I am against calvinism.. So i guess you can call me an anti-calvinist..

I hereby confess to all who read this post that I believe Jesus is God..
I also Confess to all who read this post that I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead and lives forever more..

So there you have it.. A false accuser of the brethren has been exposed a false accuser of the brethren..
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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The person who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in the Bible was not blaspheming Jesus.. They blasphemed the Holy Spirit..

People can indeed blaspheme the Holy Spirit these days because all True Christians are indwelled by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus had the Holy Spirit with Him..

If a person declares that a true Christian is possessed or a messenger of a demon when they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit then that person had blasphemed the Holy Spirit and will never be forgiven for doing so..



My advice quickly stop yourself when your mind starts to wander into evil thoughts.. acknowledge your sin to God and thank His for the atonement of Jesus... No one except Jesus has lived a life without sin.. And if you ever hear someone declaring they do live without sin you can be assured they are a liar or delusional...

If a born again, Holy Spirit filled, Child of God can succumb to satan and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, then Jesus's prayer to His Father is in vain, and of no effect.
John 17:
15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Tis' a pity you don't speak their language like some here do. You could simply ask them.
I don't need to speak their language, their Creator already told me...

Mark 12:25 CSB
[25] For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven.

Besides, the fallen angels lie :)
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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Well i did try.. And i knew a calvinist could not go through a post without launching a totally unjustified personal attack..

"""Well, we all know that all anti-Calvinists don't believe Christ is God, or that he resurrected. Just wanted to throw that out there. """

And people wonder why i find any discussion with a calvinist a toxic experience..

I am against calvinism.. So i guess you can call me an anti-calvinist..

I hereby confess to all who read this post that I believe Jesus is God..
I also Confess to all who read this post that I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead and lives forever more..

So there you have it.. A false accuser of the brethren has been exposed a false accuser of the brethren..
I think we're missing the whole point in making this thread.
You just proclaimed the essence of the must have 1st 5 on my list to be a brother or sister in Christ.
I can guarantee you the Calvinists definitely agree with the 1st 5.

The others are debatable. I disagree with much of what you believe, but recognize you as a brother because of the 1st 5.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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I don't need to speak their language, their Creator already told me...

Mark 12:25 CSB
[25] For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like angels in heaven.

Besides, the fallen angels lie :)
You realize the optimum words in that passage are the last 2. IN HEAVEN.

The whole reason they are locked in chains in tartarus is precisely because they abandoned their heavenly habitation, and had sex with "strange" flesh. Which to them, would be human flesh.

That word in Greek, okiterion, is used only one other time in Scripture. In 2 Corinthians 5:2, to describe the glorified bodies we will receive.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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The person who blasphemed the Holy Spirit in the Bible was not blaspheming Jesus.. They blasphemed the Holy Spirit..

People can indeed blaspheme the Holy Spirit these days because all True Christians are indwelled by the Holy Spirit just as Jesus had the Holy Spirit with Him..

If a person declares that a true Christian is possessed or a messenger of a demon when they are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit then that person had blasphemed the Holy Spirit and will never be forgiven for doing so..



My advice quickly stop yourself when your mind starts to wander into evil thoughts.. acknowledge your sin to God and thank His for the atonement of Jesus... No one except Jesus has lived a life without sin.. And if you ever hear someone declaring they do live without sin you can be assured they are a liar or delusional...
Thanks for your advice. I'll try to slap myself lol

But I disagree that a mistake in judgment on a Christian is blaspheming the Holy Spirit

I believe it was a very specific thing: It was saying that Jesus did His works through an evil spirit. When in reality Jesus did it through the HOLY SPIRIT.

That is the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Now if I were to say that: Benny Hinn is a phony fake false prophet. Is that blaspheming the Holy Ghost? No, that is me giving my HONEST opinion using DISCERNMENT and accounting for all the failed prophecies he has made and other things.
Do you agree bro?
 
Dec 28, 2016
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Well i did try.. And i knew a calvinist could not go through a post without launching a totally unjustified personal attack..

"""Well, we all know that all anti-Calvinists don't believe Christ is God, or that he resurrected. Just wanted to throw that out there. """

And people wonder why i find any discussion with a calvinist a toxic experience..

I am against calvinism.. So i guess you can call me an anti-calvinist..

I hereby confess to all who read this post that I believe Jesus is God..
I also Confess to all who read this post that I believe Jesus resurrected from the dead and lives forever more..

So there you have it.. A false accuser of the brethren has been exposed a false accuser of the brethren..
Lol!!!

You missed the point entirely! All of your posts up to this point have falsely accused Calvinist's as believing faith to be a work, that God forces himself on his elect and other innuendos of your made up assertions.

I then made sarcastic accusations against you merely to show you what it is like to make up what you believe in spite of your arguments and stance against it to prove otherwise.

Should I continue to go ahead and keep doing so, as you do?

Let me show you, again in order to continue this teaching experiment of which you've missed the point entirely: You still don't believe Christ is God or that he resurrected, no matter what you say that proves otherwise.

Do you finally get it now, or, will you continue to falsely accuse and erect straw man arguments when shown your errors are completely fabricated and false?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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Lol!!!

You missed the point entirely! All of your posts up to this point have falsely accused Calvinist's as believing faith to be a work, that God forces himself on his elect and other innuendos of your made up assertions.

I then made sarcastic accusations against you merely to show you what it is like to make up what you believe in spite of your arguments and stance against it to prove otherwise.

Should I continue to go ahead and keep doing so, as you do?

Let me show you, again in order to continue this on with this teaching experiment that you've missed the point on entirely: You still don't believe Christ is God or that he resurrected, no matter what you say that proves otherwise.

Do you finally get it now, or, will you continue to falsely accuse and erect straw man arguments when shown your errors are completely fabricated and false?
Faith is a work of GOD i believe. Because it says: what must we do so that we can do the works of God? and Jesus responds and says THIS is the work of God: That you believe in me.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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You realize the optimum words in that passage are the last 2. IN HEAVEN.

The whole reason they are locked in chains in tartarus is precisely because they abandoned their heavenly habitation, and had sex with "strange" flesh. Which to them, would be human flesh.

That word in Greek, okiterion, is used only one other time in Scripture. In 2 Corinthians 5:2, to describe the glorified bodies we will receive.
Good points, but I still stand by my objection to 'asking them'...since they lie :)