Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

garee · Apr 1, 2019

Our corrupted bodies we are born into are considered dead because of the judgment against mankind . The second judgement is the execution the second death the lake of fire . The Christians will not face the second death. Do condemnation believing God having passed from second death to eternal life. The unbelievers already judged in so much that they do not believe (no faith)

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Journeyman · Apr 1, 2019

posthuman said:

He didn't explicitly, but only a wicked mind would hope in torment that serves no purpose.

Journeyman · Apr 1, 2019

posthuman said:

it is the prophet's response to what God has told him:

Look at the nations and watch —

and be utterly amazed!

For I am going to do something in your days

that you would not believe,

even if you were told!

(Habakkuk 1:5)

that will raise up a wicked empire to be His instrument.
as the Lord said, Habakkuk is amazed and can scarce believe it:

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;

You cannot tolerate wrongdoing.

Why then do You tolerate the treacherous?

Why are You silent while the wicked

swallow up those more righteous than themselves?

(Habakkuk 1:13)

Habakkuk complains - it is the same shocked awe that any Jew feels to hear the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob say 'blessed be Egypt My people, Assyria Mine handiwork'
the prophet objects, God you are holy, how can you take what is defiled and abominable and make it your instrument?
and God answers His objection:

The Lord is in His holy temple;

let all the earth be silent before Him.

(Habakkuk 2:20)

utterly amazing!

It's utterly amazing they accused him of sin.

Journeyman · Apr 1, 2019

posthuman said:

Rejecting him certainly was iniquity.

he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me. Lk.10:16

preston39 · Apr 1, 2019

MadHermit said:

Does the NT allow the possibility of ultimate postmortem release from Hell? I'm raising this issue because of another thread started by someone who finds himself in a battle to retain his faith over the difficulty of believing in eternal damnation. This thread will focus on this issue from the perspective of Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the Book of Revelation in that order.

Knowledge of the original languages is important for understanding Scripture, partly because there is often no one-to-one exact English equivalent for Hebrew and Greek theological terms. Important examples are the Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") words often translated "eternal." In fact, both words can mean "for a long time" and "enduring." Thus, in the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs the death of Isaac can be described as "enduring (aionios) sleep" with the implication of ultimate postmortem survival. Consider these 3 NT examples where "aionios" does not mean "eternal:
(a) " that you should receive him (Onesimus) forever (aionion"--better translated "for good"--Philemon 25)."
(b) the use of aionios" in the plural to mean "long ages" in Romans 16:25 and 1 Timothy 1:9
(C) the frequent use of "aionios" by the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew "olam, which means "for a long time"

(1) JESUS' TEACHING ABOUT GEHENNA:

The ancient Jewish concept of "Gehenna" is inspired by the ancient use of the valley of Hinnom by an idolatrous cult that passed children through fire. Ancient Aramaic theological terms like "Gehenna" derive their meaning from their use in the contemporary Palestinian culture. Jesus’ concept of Gehenna must be viewed against the background of ancient rabbinic perspectives, which are nicely summarized with copious documentation in the excellent Anchor Bible Dictionary article [Vol. 2]: “Most of those [Jews] who enter it [Gehenna] in the intermediate state would be released from it…It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise. Often the punishment of Gehenna was restricted to 12 months.”

Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant uses a debtor’s prison as an image for the limited duration of punishment in Gehenna: “And in his anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt (Matthew 18:34).” Here the debt’s payment and ultimate release remain a possibility. How the debt might be paid off remains unclear, but expiation and purgation remain possibilities. Remember, “debt” (Aramaic: “chob”) is the Aramaic term for “sin” that inspires this image of Hell as a debtor’s prison.

More controversial is the related possibility that Matthew 5:25-26 refers to Gehenna:

“Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you pay the last penny.”

The symbolic interpretation of the prison as Gehenna seems preferable for 4 reasons:
(1) This saying makes little sense if taken literally. Jesus would in effect be saying: “Let me tell you how to beat the rap of criminal charges. Wait till you and your accuser are actually on the road on the way to court and then kiss up to him.”
(2) "Jesus always applies the formula “Truly I say to you” to our relationship with God, never to a purely secular issue like a court proceeding.
(3) In the first 2 centuries this saying is always interpreted symbolically.
(4) In the Lukan context (12:57-59) the saying is located in an eschatological context.
That said, Matthew 18:34 removes the necessity of invoking this saying to establish Jesus’ image of Gehenna as a debtor’s prison.

Jesus’ image of “few stripes” as an image of punishment in Gehenna implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release: “The slave who did not know and did what deserved a beating will be beaten with few stripes (Luke 12:48).”

As for Jesus’ view that people who don’t follow Him can be saved, Mark 9:40 is certainly relevant: “Whoever is not against us is for us.”

NO!

posthuman · Apr 2, 2019

Journeyman said:

He carried our sorrows

Journeyman · Apr 2, 2019

garee said:

You haven't read the passage, because Jesus is quoting Psalm 22. That's the passage.

garee said:

No, it's taking one verse from a passage and butchering it,

Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them....For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. Psa.22:4, 24

garee said:

Well, not if you ignore that it was the religious leaders who were "filled with wrath" and that Jesus "suffered wrongfully" for "doing well" as "an example to us." Hello?

garee said:

What brings the peace of God is trust in times of trouble,

For consider him that ENDURED SUCH CONTRADICTION OF SINNERS AGAINST HIMSELF lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds....afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness Heb.12:3, 11

Sinners attacking God in flesh is harmony. God attacking himself in the flesh is disharmony.

garee said:

No, it's Jesus understanding how we would feel forsaken going through unjust suffering,

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. Jn.8:29

garee said:

Of course they thought he was being smitten and afflicted for blasphemy. That's what they were told. But Paul said,

That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death Phil.3:10

Hello?? How would Paul experience the wrath of God? Answer, he wouldn't. But he would experience unjust suffering at the hands of the ungodly.

garee said:

And Jesus also knew this before he was crucified, so your belief that Jesus felt forsaken is nonsense.

The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day. Lk.9:22 (Must suffer many things by the religious leaders? Must be rejected by the religious leaders? Must be raised?) The belief that Jesus was suffering Gods wrath, or ever questioned being forsaken himself by reason of his own knowledge is pathetic.

garee said:

The truth is, this the cup Jesus told his disciples they would also drink from.

Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink Mk.10:39

But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings 1Pet.4:13

garee said:

Right. Not the will of the flesh to run from the fight against sinners, against the powers of darkness, unrighteousness, sin, mistreatment of God,

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4

Wake up.

Journeyman · Apr 2, 2019

posthuman said:

He carried our sorrows

Yes he did.

That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses Mt.8:17

It's plain that Matthew doesn't mean Jesus became sick himself.

preston39 · Apr 2, 2019

...and sin...He took all of the above to the cross with Him..... so that we may be forgiven.

MadHermit · Apr 2, 2019

The key terms for an understanding of 1 Corinthians 3:15 are the Greek verb "zemiousthai" which means "to be punished" and "to suffer loss" and, more importantly, the technical phrase "saved, yet so as by fire." In ancient rabbinic Judaism the expression "saved so as by fire" is applied to the temporary sojourn of Jews with inadequate spirituality in Gehenna for postmortem purification. Catholics understandably cite 3:15 as a prooftext for their doctrine of Purgatory. There is no punishment in Paradise; so the loss suffered by the punishment implied by "zemiousthai" is a temporary loss of Paradise for the purpose of a punitive purification process. Thus, the fire envisaged is a symbol for a postmortem purifying fire.

Paul locates Paradise in the 3rd Heaven like many of His Jewish contemporaries (2 Corinthians 12:3, 4). By doing so, he implicitly raises the question of the nature of the first 2 Heavens. In fact, the ancient rabbis located Hell in these 2 lower heavens! So 1 Corinthians 3:15 is just another of a long line of biblical prooftexts for the possibility of ultimate release from Hell. Notice again, that posters continually duck my detailed arguments for the other texts that point in this direction!

Dr. John Townsend wrote an excellent academic article making this case and I'm indebted to his work.

GHClarkII · Apr 2, 2019

MadHermit said:

You have no case. When the punishment of the wicked is described in scripture it is put alongside heaven. They are juxtaposed. Meaning if he'll eventually ends, so does heaven.

Also, the punishment fits the crime. Infinite God, infinite punishment. Very simple. I agree with the others that have posted against you. You do not know the gospel friend. Repent

MadHermit · Apr 2, 2019

GHClark: "You have no case. When the punishment of the wicked is described in scripture it is put alongside heaven. They are juxtaposed. Meaning if he'll eventually ends, so does heaven."

First, you are ducking this thread's issue: the often implied possibility that evil souls can be released from Hell prior to the final consummation. You need to go through this thread and actually read and respond to my detailed case for each text, that is, if you have any intellectual integrity.

Second, you are misunderstanding the promise of a "a new earth and a new heaven (Revelation 21:1). The new earth is not a remodeled version of our present earth. Our earth is most composed of oceans, but in the new earth "there is no sea!" Both the new earth and the new heaven will exist in a spiritual dimension. Jesus taught that the kingdom of God "will not come with signs to be observed" and will not exist in space (Luke 17:20-21). In any case, those retrieved from Hell can benefit from promises like these: ""I tell you, use worldly wealth to make friends for yourselves, so that when it'd gone, you will be welcomed into the eternal homes (Luke 16:9)."

G. H. Clark: "Also, the punishment fits the crime. Infinite God, infinite punishment. Very simple."

This just in: the fact that God is eternal is irrelevant to the question of whether it is just to punish people whom we'd all agree are good and decent eternally for decisions that made during the their brief "cup of coffee" known as life on earth. The Bible repeatedly claims that it is God's will that everyone ultimately be saved. Your God is too small because you limit God's love to earthly lifetimes and ignore all the texts that imply that God's love pursues sinners even after death.

G. H. Clark: "You do not know the gospel friend. Repent"

The arrogance of the myopic Fundamentalist Ghetto! I have spent a whole summer in street witnessing and door-to-door evangelism. Have you? I have studied the Gospels in the original Greek and underlying Aramaic, both of which I know. Have you? I have preached the Gospel of God's redeeming love and grace for decades. Have you?

posthuman · Apr 2, 2019

MadHermit said:

Because "we" get to judge what is right and just and get to criticize God if He doesn't do what we say He ought to...??

Hmm what's the just punishment for that kind of presumptuous vanity?

eternally-gratefull · Apr 2, 2019

GHClarkII said:

The penalty of sin is death, The curse of the law is death

Jesus became a curse for us, He was the lamb of God who takes away the penalty of sin on the day of atonement,

You deserve spiritual death, If you recive christs gift, His death will cover your sin so you can be redeemed, If you try to earn your own way, You will stand for your own penalty, and suffer what you deserve.

Journeyman · Apr 2, 2019

MadHermit said:

My friend, in 1Cor.3:15, Paul isn't teaching about a way to amend wrongdoing after death. He's teaching about the judgment seat of Christ, where corruption will go up in smoke, whether it's a thing or a person.

MadHermit · Apr 2, 2019

Journeyman: "My friend, in 1Cor.3:15, Paul isn't teaching about a way to amend wrongdoing after death. He's teaching about the judgment seat of Christ, where corruption will go up in smoke, whether it's a thing or a person."

You miss the point: the works are burnt up because they don't qualify as righteous works. So those without godly works are punished in Gehenna. Thus, God's Word says: "What good is it, brethren, if a man claims to have faith but has no works? Can faith save him (James 2:14)?" These are rhetorical questions that expect the obvious answer: "Of course not!" This brings us to Jesus" agreement with the contemporary rabbinic view of Gehenna as a realm of punishment or purification of limited duration. Have you bothered to read my earlier posts that demonstrate this claim? You duck my point that ancient idioms need to be interpreted in terms of what they meant in the contemporary culture; and as I pointed out, the rabbinic phrase "saved yet so as by fire" designates subjection to temporary purifying fires of Gehenna.

Posthuman: "Because "we" get to judge what is right and just and get to criticize God if He doesn't do what we say He ought to...??"

You are the poster boy for the fallacy of begging the question. The prior question is whether the biblical God existd as described.
If that God turns out to be a morally monstrous sadist, then He should be rejected as a projection of a vindictive tribal Jewish religion. An important reason why it was easy to reject the Greco-Roman pantheon is that these gods and goddesses were often petty, jealous, and vindictive in ways that make it obvious that they are human projections of personal soap operas onto the divine.

Posthuman: "Hmm what's the just punishment for that kind of presumptuous vanity?"

The just punishment is, surprise, a great reward for searching the Scripture for 2 types of evidence:
(1) that God really is a God of pure unconditional love and that He never stops loving the wicked even after their death. God cannot change His nature.
(2) that God will act consistently with His desire to save everyone and that His quest to do so need not end at death.

posthuman · Apr 2, 2019

MadHermit said:

petitio principii

(also known as: assuming the initial point, assuming the answer, chicken and the egg argument, circulus in probando, circular reasoning [form of], vicious circle)

Description: Any form of argument where the conclusion is assumed in one of the premises. Many people use the phrase “begging the question” incorrectly when they use it to mean, “prompts one to ask the question”. That is NOT the correct usage. Begging the question is a form of circular reasoning.

Logical Form:

Claim X assumes X is true.

Therefore, claim X is true.

copied from: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/53/Begging-the-Question

MadHermit · Apr 2, 2019

I'm glad you looked it up so that you will be careful to avoid commiting it again.

Journeyman · Apr 3, 2019

MadHermit said:

I'm not missing your point. I don't take rabbinic interpretation of scripture as truth. The rabbis didn't recognize their Messiah.

Jesus said, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna). Mk.10:28

When Paul say, "yet so as by fire", he's still speaking of the judgment seat of Christ. The temporary place of punishment (chastisment, correction, purification) is now,

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth....that we might be partakers of his holiness. Heb.12:6,10

he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap Mal.2:2

MadHermit · Apr 3, 2019

"Journeyman: "I'm not missing your point. I don't take rabbinic interpretation of scripture as truth. The rabbis didn't recognize their Messiah."

Yes, I'm afraid you are still missing the point. You don't understand how biblical scholars determine the meaning of key theological concepts. Palestinian expressions derive their meaning from their use in the prevailing Hebrew-speaking culture. So in the case of ancient rabbinic Judaism, the meaning of the expression "saved, yet so as by fire" is important for understanding Pauline usage. Jesus could have used other terms for Hell, but He chose to use the standard term used by the rabbis and that decision suggests that He largely endorses their conception. This inference is confirmed by His use of the image of a debtor's prison for Gehenna from which the possibility of ultimate release is possible and by His use of imagery (e. g. "few stripes") that implies a finite limit to one's stay in Gehenna. [See my earlier post that explains this in greater detail.]

Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

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