Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

posthuman · Apr 1, 2019

well, He quoted - sang? - the first line of a song.

this is what one of the latter verses of that song says:

Psalms 22:24
For He has not despised or scorned the suffering of the afflicted one; He has not hidden His face from him but has listened to his cry for help.

also of interest: Jesus at all times, everywhere in the NT, calls Him 'Father' - - but in quoting the song, He says 'my God'

i know we've had this conversation before, bro; just putting it out there.

posthuman · Apr 1, 2019

tourist said:

for as long as we are in His mind and remembrance - because it is in Him we have our being

PennEd · Apr 1, 2019

posthuman said:

True, but that doesn't negate that the 1st line is still operable.

Jesus took our sins in His Body, 1 Peter 2:4 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose [g]stripes you were healed.

And was actually MADE sin for us 2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Deade · Apr 1, 2019

tourist said:

Universalism say everyone, including Satan and demons, will be saved in the end. Not true. God said in Ezek. 28:18, 19, that he will be destroyed. That also goes for any humans that insist on living in darkness and love their own evil ways.

That said: God show us that He will resurrect the "rest of the dead" after the millennial reign. This is pictured as the Last Great Day at the end of the Feast of Ingathering (Exo. 28:16;34:22). This is also called the Feast of Tabernacles and it pictures the last great harvest of souls. The Last Great Day is also the White Throne Judgment.

Most of your fellow Christians picture God going to all the trouble of bringing flesh and blood humans back to life just destroy them. What a sadist their God is. Him going to all that trouble to bring all flesh back to tell them how bad they were, then throw them into the flames. No, I believe this Judgment is a time frame where many will have a chance to know God and defeat the then released Satan. The following is a picture:

Isa. 65:17, 20 "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Not everyone will have the same chance during this time as Christ shows us those that have seen very much and still rejected Him.

Matt. 10:11-15 "And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence. And when ye come into an house, salute it. And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

Journeyman · Apr 1, 2019

posthuman said:

Paul wasn't hoping the resurrected wicked would be tormented forever and ever after being judged, but that they would cease to exist.

I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth Eze.28:18

garee · Apr 1, 2019

Journeyman said:

My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me is the Son of God in Jesus crying out to the father, as the father pours out his wrath . The work of two working together in perfect harmony and submission to one another. Two working can be rendered as government .
Loving authority plus willingness and submissiveness equals peace and blessing. Christ the author and perfecter thereof.

I see that more as he gave spirit life of Himself in jeopardy of his Spirit life .Another way of saying drink the blood, a picture of salvation.

The Father and Son jeopardized the Spirit life by working together giving a portion of it to us. I think as Jesus said the father and I are one...... represents the Son of man, Jesus as his relationship role as the lower position of the two working together in perfect harmony to one another and the position of the fathers the greater role. Not greater person. Together mutually summiting together as one work of one faith, as a labor of His love. By which we have the peace of God that surpasses our ability to understand .

Nehemiah6 · Apr 1, 2019

posthuman said:

The resurrection of the wicked is a resurrection unto damnation:
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God... (Rev 20:12)

The context shows that all the unrighteous dead are resurrected, judged according to their works, found missing from the Book of Life, and consigned to the Lake of Fire. Christ warned about Hell (Gehenna) over and over again, because He created Hell for the devil and his angels. But those who do not believe the Gospel are damned (Mk 16:16).

There is no hint in the Bible that anyone returns from the Lake of Fire. And that is why the Gospel must be preached to every creature. Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners (1) from eternal Hell, (2) from the power of Satan, (3) from the penalty for sin, (4) from the power of sin, and (5) from the presence of sin.

FollowHisSteps · Apr 1, 2019

MadHermit said:

Does the NT allow the possibility of ultimate postmortem release from Hell? I'm raising this issue because of another thread started by someone who finds himself in a battle to retain his faith over the difficulty of believing in eternal damnation. This thread will focus on this issue from the perspective of Jesus, Peter, Paul, and the Book of Revelation in that order.

Knowledge of the original languages is important for understanding Scripture, partly because there is often no one-to-one exact English equivalent for Hebrew and Greek theological terms. Important examples are the Hebrew ("olam") and Greek ("aionios") words often translated "eternal." In fact, both words can mean "for a long time" and "enduring." Thus, in the Testaments of the 12 Patriarchs the death of Isaac can be described as "enduring (aionios) sleep" with the implication of ultimate postmortem survival. Consider these 3 NT examples where "aionios" does not mean "eternal:
(a) " that you should receive him (Onesimus) forever (aionion"--better translated "for good"--Philemon 25)."
(b) the use of aionios" in the plural to mean "long ages" in Romans 16:25 and 1 Timothy 1:9
(C) the frequent use of "aionios" by the Greek Septuagint to translate the Hebrew "olam, which means "for a long time"

(1) JESUS' TEACHING ABOUT GEHENNA:

The ancient Jewish concept of "Gehenna" is inspired by the ancient use of the valley of Hinnom by an idolatrous cult that passed children through fire. Ancient Aramaic theological terms like "Gehenna" derive their meaning from their use in the contemporary Palestinian culture. Jesus’ concept of Gehenna must be viewed against the background of ancient rabbinic perspectives, which are nicely summarized with copious documentation in the excellent Anchor Bible Dictionary article [Vol. 2]: “Most of those [Jews] who enter it [Gehenna] in the intermediate state would be released from it…It was a fiery purgatory for those Jews whose merits and transgressions balanced one another who would afterward be admitted to Paradise. Often the punishment of Gehenna was restricted to 12 months.”

Jesus’ parable of the unforgiving servant uses a debtor’s prison as an image for the limited duration of punishment in Gehenna: “And in his anger his lord handed him over to be tortured until he would pay his entire debt (Matthew 18:34).” Here the debt’s payment and ultimate release remain a possibility. How the debt might be paid off remains unclear, but expiation and purgation remain possibilities. Remember, “debt” (Aramaic: “chob”) is the Aramaic term for “sin” that inspires this image of Hell as a debtor’s prison.

More controversial is the related possibility that Matthew 5:25-26 refers to Gehenna:

“Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are on the way to court with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the Judge, and the Judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you pay the last penny.”

The symbolic interpretation of the prison as Gehenna seems preferable for 4 reasons:
(1) This saying makes little sense if taken literally. Jesus would in effect be saying: “Let me tell you how to beat the rap of criminal charges. Wait till you and your accuser are actually on the road on the way to court and then kiss up to him.”
(2) "Jesus always applies the formula “Truly I say to you” to our relationship with God, never to a purely secular issue like a court proceeding.
(3) In the first 2 centuries this saying is always interpreted symbolically.
(4) In the Lukan context (12:57-59) the saying is located in an eschatological context.
That said, Matthew 18:34 removes the necessity of invoking this saying to establish Jesus’ image of Gehenna as a debtor’s prison.

Jesus’ image of “few stripes” as an image of punishment in Gehenna implies a finite limit and therefore ultimate release: “The slave who did not know and did what deserved a beating will be beaten with few stripes (Luke 12:48).”

As for Jesus’ view that people who don’t follow Him can be saved, Mark 9:40 is certainly relevant: “Whoever is not against us is for us.”

This proposal relies on a certain view of theology and the problem with man.
Let us propose that man without Jesus is just a husk, a disfunctional series of experiences that are
not tied together, and when pushed will literally fall apart.

The putting together of a soul that has eternal future is through faith, desiring forgiveness and love
in their life, calling out to Jesus for this resolution. There is something unique and definative here
on earth which is final. I suspect the revealing of truth, shinning a light causes destruction that
is impossible to reverse.

So the lake of fire rather than being a place of punishment is the destruction of things that have failed
and will never function or can be saved.

If this is the reality of sinners and the world, there is not a place where there is saving from the fire.

Mii · Apr 1, 2019

I find some things baffling. Which of you here TRULY understands what eternal means?

I submit to you that it is far beyond our comprehension. The finite cannot understand the infinite.

There are so many variables that the equation can hardly even be conceptualized personally, let alone having to do with every single person. Just try for one minute. Every thought and idea, every action, every belief of one individual. Try to hold that in your hand. Try and hold 10 billion such constructs. Can you? No of course not. The LORD alone can judge the heart.

The Lord set eternity in the hearts of man, but we cannot understand it. In Ecclesiastes....if you care to take a look.
It comes across as pretentious to presume to "know" exactly what is, will be, and what has been.

I do understand that it is the internet and it is a matter of course to "hijack" the voice of a poster and see things from our perspective. So Just know that I recognize that the "intent" may not be to come across this way.

As I have already stated, I believe in the wrath of the Lord and his justice. I do believe that we do each other a disservice by treating our personal revelation as scripture. His ways are higher than our ways. Who hath known the mind of the Lord? Who has been his counselor? (Rm 11:34).

Sometimes it behooves us to "get small" as it were. We exalt ourselves without realizing it...just keep it in mind.

Do I know if eternal means eternal? I don't even know what that word means.

What does the Lord require of you? He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

NIV says "O mortal" which I think is important to bear in mind.

In the end, Personally. What should we set our hearts on? Knowing we are tiny specks. Little dust motes. A concentrated focus on giving the Lord praise and thanksgiving with our little "speck" is where the spirit leads me

Journeyman · Apr 1, 2019

tourist said:

Jesus quoted the beginning Psalm 22 in response to those mocking him Read Mt.27:39-46, then read all of Psalm 22. It's a psalm of trust that God doesn't forsake the righteous. He quoted it to show their lack of knowledge of their own scriptures. Of course, ignorance goes without saying when you want God dead.

tourist said:

Read Hab.1:13 again. He doesn't mean God can't look sin at all. He means without doing something about it. He's asking God to look at the sin and do something about it right away. He says this in the very same verse. Scripture teaches the opposite of what you've been taught,

The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good. Pro.15:3

GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth Gen.6:5

tourist said:

There has always been a price to pay for sin and scripture says it's the life of the one who sins if he doesn't repent,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.13:3

when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Eze.18:27

tourist said:

No. Jesus came teaching that sinners must repent to be forgiven and "paid for this" by being mistreated by wicked men. This rejection of Jesus by mankind is the sin of the world he endured. Jesus wasn't for one second forsaken by his Father.

tourist said:

Punishing an innocent man in place of the guilty isn't justice. It's injustice. It's abomination to God,

The one who acquits the guilty and the one who condemns the innocent - both of them are an abomination to the LORD. Pro.17:15

Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity Isa.59:7

As far as salvation being free, it is for anyone who wants it,

And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Rev.22:17

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

Not sure what version of the bible you are reading to come up with this perception that scripture was distorted. [/QUOTE] I'm reading this version,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If THEY HAVE PERSECUTED ME, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also Jn.15:20

posthuman · Apr 1, 2019

Journeyman said:

where did Paul say he wished someone would cease to exist?

posthuman · Apr 1, 2019

Journeyman said:

it is the prophet's response to what God has told him:

Look at the nations and watch —

and be utterly amazed!

For I am going to do something in your days

that you would not believe,

even if you were told!

(Habakkuk 1:5)

that will raise up a wicked empire to be His instrument.
as the Lord said, Habakkuk is amazed and can scarce believe it:

Your eyes are too pure to look on evil;

You cannot tolerate wrongdoing.

Why then do You tolerate the treacherous?

Why are You silent while the wicked

swallow up those more righteous than themselves?

(Habakkuk 1:13)

Habakkuk complains - it is the same shocked awe that any Jew feels to hear the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob say 'blessed be Egypt My people, Assyria Mine handiwork'
the prophet objects, God you are holy, how can you take what is defiled and abominable and make it your instrument?
and God answers His objection:

The Lord is in His holy temple;

let all the earth be silent before Him.

(Habakkuk 2:20)

utterly amazing!

posthuman · Apr 1, 2019

Journeyman said:

surely He bore our iniquities

tourist · Apr 1, 2019

Journeyman said:

I'm reading this version,

Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If THEY HAVE PERSECUTED ME, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also Jn.15:20[/QUOTE]

Jesus, dying on the cross did not ask the Father if He was forsaken Him but asked 'why?". If the Father did not forsake His son dying on the cross carrying the sins of the world then that passage would not have been written. It is not my opinion on whether or not the Father had forsaken the Son but rather it is a biblical fact. What you have written in this post does not refute the scripture about Jesus being forsaken by the Father

Poinsetta · Apr 1, 2019

Sounds like they’re gonna release someone out of hell

garee · Apr 1, 2019

Yes no neutrality with God who is of one mind. God is not a man as us. Hot or cold no familiarity (luke warm). His thoughts as his word do not return void . Either he draws one closer as a form of peace or further away as a evil. He cast our sin as far as East is from the West never to be remembered forever more.

Journeyman · Apr 1, 2019

garee said:

I explained in post 110 why Jesus quoted that psalm.

garee said:

God pouring his wrath out shows variance, not harmony.

garee said:

Yes, and this is why it's perfectly clear that Jesus wasn't suffering the wrath of God, but rather the wrath of men,

And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath Lk.4:28

1Pet.2:19
For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, SUFFERING WRONFULLY<---This is the way Jesus suffered

1Pet.2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.<----This is what Jesus did.

1Pet.2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps.

MattforJesus · Apr 1, 2019

There can be no release from hell, because there can be no release from their sins.

The only time our sins can be forgiven is when we are in the flesh, for there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh, and the sin resides in the flesh, for it stems from the flesh.

The flesh is like our scapegoat to transfer our sins to it, for even though our sins are forgiven they must be transferred somewhere else, and that somewhere else has to perish.

The saint shall put off the flesh with the sins, and preserve the soul that will eventually have a glorified body.

People are flesh and soul, and they can put off the flesh, and be saved for their sins are forgiven.

That is why a fallen angel cannot be redeemed for they are only one part of a being, so when they sinned they tainted their whole being with nowhere to be able to transfer the sin, so it is attached to them forever.

But it is not attached to the saint forever for they are two parts of a being, flesh and soul, and they can put off the flesh, and their soul can still live on with no sin attached to them.

That is why there is no release from hell, because if they die in their sins, with sin on their record, then they have that sin attached to them in the afterlife, but they are not in the flesh anymore so there is nowhere to transfer the sin, and they would be like the fallen angels and their whole being is tainted.

So their sins cannot be forgiven in the afterlife to be able to have release from hell.

However we die, with no sin on our record, or sin on our record, we will stay that way for eternity.

And the blood of Christ cannot wash away their sins in the afterlife.

At the great white throne judgment some people can be saved if they believed in a higher power that loves people, and they loved people, for love is the fulfilling of the law, and by their conscience, and if they asked God to forgive them when they did wrong, and asked God for forgiveness if anything is amiss in their life.

But they cannot be with God, and Jesus, until the millennial reign is over.

tourist · Apr 1, 2019

MattforJesus said:

There can be no release from hell, because there can be no release from their sins.

The only time our sins can be forgiven is when we are in the flesh, for there is no good thing that dwells in the flesh, and the sin resides in the flesh, for it stems from the flesh.

The flesh is like our scapegoat to transfer our sins to it, for even though our sins are forgiven they must be transferred somewhere else, and that somewhere else has to perish.

The saint shall put off the flesh with the sins, and preserve the soul that will eventually have a glorified body.

People are flesh and soul, and they can put off the flesh, and be saved for their sins are forgiven.

That is why a fallen angel cannot be redeemed for they are only one part of a being, so when they sinned they tainted their whole being with nowhere to be able to transfer the sin, so it is attached to them forever.

But it is not attached to the saint forever for they are two parts of a being, flesh and soul, and they can put off the flesh, and their soul can still live on with no sin attached to them.

That is why there is no release from hell, because if they die in their sins, with sin on their record, then they have that sin attached to them in the afterlife, but they are not in the flesh anymore so there is nowhere to transfer the sin, and they would be like the fallen angels and their whole being is tainted.

So their sins cannot be forgiven in the afterlife to be able to have release from hell.

However we die, with no sin on our record, or sin on our record, we will stay that way for eternity.

And the blood of Christ cannot wash away their sins in the afterlife.

At the great white throne judgment some people can be saved if they believed in a higher power that loves people, and they loved people, for love is the fulfilling of the law, and by their conscience, and if they asked God to forgive them when they did wrong, and asked God for forgiveness if anything is amiss in their life.

But they cannot be with God, and Jesus, until the millennial reign is over.

Where in the bible does it say explicitly that sins cannot be forgiven in the afterlife?

garee · Apr 1, 2019

tourist said:

Jesus, dying on the cross did not ask the Father if He was forsaken Him but asked 'why?". If the Father did not forsake His son dying on the cross carrying the sins of the world then that passage would not have been written. It is not my opinion on whether or not the Father had forsaken the Son but rather it is a biblical fact. What you have written in this post does not refute the scripture about Jesus being forsaken by the Father[/QUOTE]

It pleased the father to bruise him.

A picture of the father and Son working together in perfect harmony with one another in order to bring the peace of God. .

I would suggest the "why" is was while or during the time the father afflicted him. He felt forsaken that led to the crying out and the strengthening to finish the work .

Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isaiah 53:4-5

Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.Isaiah 53:4-5

jesus cried out the Father who was pouring out the cup of wrath suffering unto death. the father heard him and sent anagles to strnth their mutual work of salvation

Luke 22:42-44 King James Version (KJV)Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

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