Is Ultimate Release from Hell Possible?

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Journeyman

Well-known member
Jan 10, 2019
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#81
I've noticed the studies put forth on this subject always seem to leave out one of the biblical phrases (relating to this word):

"unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (what we call "forever" / "eternity" / "eternal" / endlessness, etc),

found in the following verses:

--Galatians 1:5; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17; 2 Timothy 4:18; Hebrews 13:21 ("[to Whom] be glory _____" ; "be honour and glory _____" )

--1 Peter 4:11; 1 Peter 5:11; Revelation 1:6 ("to Him/Whom be glory/praise/dominion ____")

--Revelation 1:18; Revelation 4:9; Revelation 4:10; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 10:6; Revelation 15:7 ("I am alive ____" ; "[Him] Who/that liveth ____" ; "God, Who liveth ____" )

--Revelation 5:13; Revelation 7:12; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 22:5 ("and unto the Lamb ___" ; "be unto our God ____" ; "and He shall reign ____" ; "and they shall reign ___" )

[which ones of the above look to be saying something like "long-but-limited-time-period"?]
None of them and for this very reason, reigning for a long but limited time period (a thousand years) is sensless, unless we know the reason why that reign comes to an end. It's temporary because the 1st resurrection is where we were made ambassadors of Christ in flesh body which isn't eternal. It must be changed and this change occurs at the 2nd resurrection.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death....when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption 1Cor.15:26,54

--[and in the 3 verses usually "under question"] Revelation 14:11 [regarding those who receive the mark and worship the beast and his image,];
This isn't a future state of people who love the things of Satan. It's current reality. But "the smoke of their torment" (the vapor of their lives) can't be seen for what it really is, without knowing the peace Jesus gives. If we don't have the peace that passes human understanding, peace which the devil's people cannot have, then we're not walking with the Lord as we ought to be.

Revelation 19:3 [regarding the judgment of "the great whore"];
This is the "mother", the one who gave birth to all like herself throughout history. Smoke "Forever and ever" pertains to her destruction from the beginning of her existence until her end, not unending torture.

and... Revelation 20:10 [regarding "the devil" and where "the beast and the false prophet" already are/have been for the 1000 yrs [and "These two cast ALIVE into" Rev19:20] before Satan/the devil is thereafter "cast into the lake of fire" where, it says, "they [plural] shall be tormented day and night [that is, continually] ____"; and the same place that [of "the dead [/unsaved of all times]" ] "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into" also (see Psalm 69:28 where TWO DISTINCT things/actions [/writings] are named)]

[21x total, I believe]

Now, as far as SEQUENCE goes (relating):

--Isaiah 24:21-22[23] has TWO "PUNISH" words SEPARATED [time-wise] BY a specific time-period... so it goes like: "1) shall be PUNISHED... and after many days... 2) shall be PUNISHED" ; which correlates precisely with...

--Revelation 19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 [regarding the time of His Second Coming to the earth (note: not our Rapture)]... then [sequentially] the 1000 yrs [i.e. "and after MANY DAYS"/"the rest of the DEAD lived not again UNTIL the 1000 yrs were finished" (i.e. at the GWTj)]... then [sequentially] the Rev20:11-15 GWTj [regarding "the DEAD [/unsaved of all times]" who had NOT been "resurrected" at the time ALL SAINTS were done being "resurrected" IN TIME FOR the MK age (before it commenced, 1000 yrs before this point in the chronology)]

The last 3 (of the phrases "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" ^ [of 21x total] ) all pertain to "judgments" taking place at [/surrounding] that 1st of TWO "PUNISH" words (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY MK age [singular], except for "the devil/Satan" who will be put into the "prison" for the 1000 yrs, per Rev20:7 [still a "PUNISH"]), which is the first step (if you will) of the final carrying out of the sentence (at the later GWTj [2nd "PUNISH" word in Isa24:21-22(23)], re: "the DEAD [/unsaved/unrighteous]" of all times)
People are punished in this world (Lk.13:1-4) and are held captive to face the ultimate punishment.

The GWT judgment is synonymous with the judgment seat of Christ. The unrepentant are tormented at this time, because their sinful lives are being exposed. "Day and night forever and ever" pertains to the entirety of their past, the examination of them, which has an end.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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#82
your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from what i said, unless you're in the habit of travelling only backwards through time.


(to have an origin} ≠ {to cease}
It does when it no longer serves a purpose.
your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow from what i said, unless you're in the habit of travelling only backwards through time.

we travel forwards; time has an arrow.
{to have an origin} ≠ {to cease}
I believe at God's judgment seat, our lives will be examined. Then Jesus will show who ceases and who doesn't.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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#83
@Magenta

If H. ‘is not’, then she never was. I mistook a cloud of atoms for a person. There aren’t, and never were, any people. Death only reveals the vacuity that was always there. What we call the living are simply those who have not yet been unmasked. All equally bankrupt, but some not yet declared.
But this must be nonsense; vacuity revealed to whom? bankruptcy declared to whom? To other boxes of fireworks or clouds of atoms. I will never believe — more strictly I can’t believe — that one set of physical events could be, or make, a mistake about other sets.
- C.S. Lewis, from 'A Grief Observed'
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Thes.4:13
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#84
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Thes.4:13
Exactly.

Don't imagine they no longer exist just because the body of flesh - which is only a tent - has died.
 
W

Wild

Guest
#85
Hell is not the lake of fire. Hell is the holding place of the dead
until the final judgement following the resurrection of all.
Hell is going to be thrown into the lake of fire.
Death is the last enemy to be abolished.
It does into the lake of fire also.


Jesus holds the keys to life and death :love:
Finally someone who actually gets it, bravo!
 

tourist

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#86
Immediately after His death of the cross Jesus descended into hell and preached to the spirits in prison for three days. Of course, a day in the eyes of God is like a thousand years and a thousand years a day so it may have seemed to be an indeterminate amount of time for Jesus to be separated from the love of His father. The true agony for Jesus was probably not the actual crucifixion, as brutal as it was but rather when His father turned away from Him because He had taken on the sins of the world.
 

tourist

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#87
I know some people really want to believe that after you dead Jesus saves you, but you needed to have confessed and believed in Jesus before you died. It could be with your last breath like the repentent thief did on the cross but you need to have believed while you got breath in your body. The other guy on the cross who was crucified next to Jesus did not. He mocked him instead. Do you think that guy was saved?
Quite possibly he was because I said a prayer for his salvation.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#89
Oh? The Bible teaches all of those human beings who take the Mark of the Beast during the Tribulation will NEVER get out of the Lake of Fire. Nor will the Antichrist or the False Prophet:

"Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:9-12)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

I would say there will nothing left of them .The temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father and the temporal corrupted flesh returns to the dust...……….all in the, twinkling of the eye

It is an all consuming fire. Not a slow cooker or a smoke house. Up in smoke. Never to rise to new spirit life forever and ever more.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
 

Journeyman

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Jan 10, 2019
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#90
Immediately after His death of the cross Jesus descended into hell and preached to the spirits in prison for three days. Of course, a day in the eyes of God is like a thousand years and a thousand years a day so it may have seemed to be an indeterminate amount of time for Jesus to be separated from the love of His father. The true agony for Jesus was probably not the actual crucifixion, as brutal as it was but rather when His father turned away from Him because He had taken on the sins of the world.
This belief is an appalling distortion of scripture.

God never turned away from himself, but men did. God never viewed himself as sinful, but men did.
 

Budman

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Mar 9, 2014
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#91
I would say there will nothing left of them .The temporal corrupted spirit returns to the father and the temporal corrupted flesh returns to the dust...……….all in the, twinkling of the eye

It is an all consuming fire. Not a slow cooker or a smoke house. Up in smoke. Never to rise to new spirit life forever and ever more.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Suuuure. Except for those pesky parts about them having "no rest day or night" and being "tormented day and night forever and ever".
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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#92
I'm not. I'm saying without a new tent, they're not going forward.
Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
 

tourist

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#93
This belief is an appalling distortion of scripture.

God never turned away from himself, but men did. God never viewed himself as sinful, but men did.
Jesus himself asked His father, while hanging on the cross, why the Father had forsake Him. The Father cannot look at sin so He turned the other way. You know of course, that there was a price to pay for sin don't you? Jesus, of course was not sinful in anyway but He was carrying the sins of the world and would have to pay for that. Salvation is definitely not a free thing, freely given perhaps but ultimately God is a god of justice and there was a cost attached to forgiveness that had to be paid. Not sure what version of the bible you are reading to come up with this perception that scripture was distorted. It states explicitly in the bible that Jesus asked the Father why He forsake Him.

What part of this verse don't you understand and where exactly is the distortion of scripture?

Matthew 27:45
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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#94
Suuuure. Except for those pesky parts about them having "no rest day or night" and being "tormented day and night forever and ever".
That verse is in reference to the devil, the beast, and the false prophet :)

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#95
Suuuure. Except for those pesky parts about them having "no rest day or night" and being "tormented day and night forever and ever".
Hi thanks for the reply and sorry in advance for the rambling

Not a salvation issue . I am looking at some older ideas which in respect to some I have had some doubt in. You could say another view point.

With all do respect can't suffer if the temporal corrupted spirit is gone having returned to the father who gave it temporarily and corrupted flesh has begun it journey of returning to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed of. What's going to do the suffering?

Day and night I would think has to do with under the Sun. Under the Sun is removed on the last day The glory of God will be the light no more night..(Revelation 21) The forever and ever is as long as they live, personal to the death . Can't suffer when one is dead.

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

It is the punishment that Cain the "marked" man, by the number of man (- - -) said he could not bear: ."And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear"...…..a living hell. Cain hoped he would die. God promised he would carry out His word the mark of his word . Cain was not part of the Jury.

One that only Christ our rest can and did .He rested on the seventh. The rest believers have from the suffering of this godless world when and if they do mix faith in what they do hear, (hebrew4). Jonah is used as a an example of suffering the pangs of hell and also as parable to Christ's living work. The last sign as a wonder.

Jonah 2 King James Version (KJV) Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

All the days of there lives night and day that had no rest that could come from knowing Christ our sabbath rest . Our living sacrifice

Forever more on the other side of under the sun, the new heavens and earth, those who had not the Spirit of Christ will not rise to new spirit life.

God does not have mercy on one and the other no mercy... "merciless". I think it would take a merciless God to require some to suffer with no end and other to rise to new life. It is something I am working on. You could say it has bothered me for some time by the idea that a God who is subject to his own laws would refuse any form of mercy on some

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

I think in that way when and if we offer our bodies in respect to His great mercy and offer the gospel of rest . Working to let no dept we have to Him remaining except for the continuing debt to love another that dead will remain as long as Christ continues to be our confidence. Have mercy on those who have no rest.
 

tourist

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#96
Let me ask you this: Is it your place to decide the final fate of the second thief or anyone else? :cool:
I agree, the arbiter who decides who lives and who ultimately dies rests with God alone.
 

tourist

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#97
Notice again how posters need to duck the detailed arguments offered in favor of the possibility of release from Hell!

posthuman: "just to clarify, are you saying that yes, you consider yourself both qualified and morally obligated to judge God?
and if you don't like what He says, you eisegete?"

No, I'm saying that I need to respond to God's challenge: "Come, let us reason together (Isaiah 1:18)." "Ifeellike" is losing his hope because of the mindless screed about Hell propagated by posters like you. So as a Christian I'm obligated to respond to his cry for help and his need to have his hope restored: "Whenever anyone asks you to speak of your hope, be ready to defend it (1 Peter 3:15)."
It is simply inhuman or "subhuman" [Your nickname is apt!:cautious:] to claim that ordinary decent people will suffer eternal conscious torment for their oversight in failing to accept Christ for a variety of reasons in this short life.

posthuman: "Ellicott does. Benson does. Barnes does. Brown does. Poole does Jarchi does. Gill does. How many I gotta look up for you?

How many? Just one. The online commentaries you cite are neither modern nor academic.

posthuman: "But more importantly than anything else, Jesus does (Mark 9:44-46)"

Jesus chooses to use the language of Isaiah 66 which had originally had a purely seculae application and has nothing to do with Hell or eternal demnation. You just keep ducking the key point: there is no concept of Hell in the OT!
"Come, and let us reason together..." is on my short list of favorite bible passages. My number one favorite is "Jesus Wept". Apparently, He couldn't' take the crap down here on earth either. That verse shows the humanity side of Jesus who is also divine and is God.
 

tourist

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#98
maybe yes, maybe no. I am no Universalists, I am not sure whether or not all will be saved, but I do see a chance, see John 12:32. However, man's free will MUST be a part!
The bible states that it is God's will and desire that all shall be saved and that His son Jesus died for the sins of the world. Surely, God is capable and willing to accomplish His own will and desire. I'm not a Universalist either but it is my hope and prayer that everyone will ultimately be saved from eternal punishment.
 

tourist

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#99
In other words, mankind has always existed. This is nonsense.
God has always been God and has always known about mankind in general and also each unique individual. In a spiritual sense, mankind has indeed always existed.