Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,842
8,470
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Calvin and did he believe in free will?
he certainly did. wrote a whole book about it called 'The Bondage and Liberation of the Will: A Defence of the Orthodox Doctrine of Human Choice against Pighius'

have you read it?

i was just looking at an article; apparently one of the main theses of his argument against Pighius is that necessity doesn't imply compulsion. for example -

For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
(Romans 11:32, nkjv)
God constrains all to disobedience in order to show His mercy to all.
that means man is '
subjected' and 'bound up' in sin - that's the literal meaning of the word here - by God Himself.
but does that mean that God compels disobedience? that He's the author of evil?
Calvin says no. man freely chooses sin, not under the compulsion of God.

what do you say?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
The saints of old were born with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the new birth the same as we are in this day and time. Isaiah 63:11, Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of the flock? Where is he that PUT HIS HOLY SPIRIT WITHIN HIM? Moses was born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
'

give supporting scripture for the above bold type

there is none

further, the Holy Spirit does not save. The Holy Spirit is God's seal AFTER we accept Christ

sometimes I understand why the Catholic church did not used to allow lay people to possess Bibles :geek:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
yeah, one might think that's the point, if what one thinks we ought to be thinking and talking about is the man, John Calvin.

____________________________________________________________:unsure:

oh but that is EXACTLY the point even though you may wish to insert another (point) in polite, measured tones

this thread is about unconditional election

in order to best comprehend the substance of the op who wished to discuss that, a person has to learn something about Calvin or at least those who support the premise of the op
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,842
8,470
113
oh but that is EXACTLY the point even though you may wish to insert another (point) in polite, measured tones

this thread is about unconditional election

in order to best comprehend the substance of the op who wished to discuss that, a person has to learn something about Calvin or at least those who support the premise of the op
*shrug* i'm here to talk about scripture and about who Christ is and about the truth of His work. about ideas, understanding and knowledge of God.
if you or 7 or anyone else wants to make every thread about a specific human being all the time that's fine. but it's not what i'm going to talk about, and it's an open forum so i'll just talk about the truth and the scripture in these threads while you talk about a certain person you hate.
fair enough?

'
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,214
113
www.christiancourier.com
yeah, one might think that's the point, if what one thinks we ought to be thinking and talking about is the man, John Calvin.

____________________________________________________________:unsure:
All one need do is scroll up the page to posts #425, 428,429, and 430 to realize you were talking about the man John Calvin and Calvinism, which is inextricably linked with its founder.

In fact my post that you quoted and answered , see above post #433, was directed at your post #428, which is speaking about Calvin, and Calvinism, in your exchange with 7seasrekeyed. :D
 
Sep 1, 2019
64
27
18
Wyoming
I do understand why so many of God's children do not understand the doctrine that Jesus taught because it is only revealed to but a few. We are the adopted children of God. God predetermined that Jesus would pay the adoption price for those (people) he choose. Jesus did not die for "a way". He died for only those that God gave him, and that was not all of mankind (John 6:38).
Jesus died for all, not for the elect. God is not a capricious deity that created people for the simple delight of hating them into hell. I cannot trust that kind of God because His nature would be flawed. Either He is eternal love (agape), or He is not (1Jn 4:16, 19)
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
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www.christiancourier.com
Jesus died for all, not for the elect. God is not a capricious deity that created people for the simple delight of hating them into hell. I cannot trust that kind of God because His nature would be flawed. Either He is eternal love (agape), or He is not (1Jn 4:16, 19)
Well said.

I would say that some people's ideal of God , when its genesis is one of elitist principles and exclusive preordained membership, becomes more and more a doctrinal argument grounded in pretentious malformations of actual scripture when such persons are challenged by saving scripture in context as pertains to the true God of the universe.
When an ideology credited to God Almighty is of that design the pomposity displayed by its adherents will never be breached by true Gospel.

Which is tragic. Because the more and more they cleave to that grandiose subscription to a man made cult, the further and further away they are from God.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,950
464
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'

give supporting scripture for the above bold type

there is none

further, the Holy Spirit does not save. The Holy Spirit is God's seal AFTER we accept Christ

sometimes I understand why the Catholic church did not used to allow lay people to possess Bibles :geek:
I assumed that you had better eyesight. Did you not see Isaiah 63:11? Sorry, I used the wrong word. Should have been Moses was born again "with" the indwelling of the Holy spirit. Not "by" the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,950
464
83
Jesus died for all, not for the elect. God is not a capricious deity that created people for the simple delight of hating them into hell. I cannot trust that kind of God because His nature would be flawed. Either He is eternal love (agape), or He is not (1Jn 4:16, 19)
I have a son-in-law who says he cannot worship a God that kills and destroys, but you both are blinding your eyes to the truthfulness of the scriptures. We don't know why God does and does not do things, but that is because we look at the scriptures through our limited and depraved abilities. We are not to question the whys and why not of God's actions. We are supposed to have faith that God is in control and does according to his will.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,553
2,214
113
www.christiancourier.com
I have a son-in-law who says he cannot worship a God that kills and destroys, but you both are blinding your eyes to the truthfulness of the scriptures. We don't know why God does and does not do things, but that is because we look at the scriptures through our limited and depraved abilities. We are not to question the whys and why not of God's actions. We are supposed to have faith that God is in control and does according to his will.
If a person remains Totally Depraved as one deemed to receive unconditional election, then God's irresistible grace didn't accomplish anything of change in that person who started life Totally Depraved.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
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The Book of 1st Peter chapter 1

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

3 Blessed be [a]the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his great mercy begat us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 unto an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, ye have been put to grief in manifold [b]trials, 7 that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold that perisheth though it is proved by fire, may be found unto praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ: 8 whom not having seen ye love; on whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice greatly with joy unspeakable and [c]full of glory: 9 receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings [d]of Christ, and the glories that should follow them. 12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that [e]preached the gospel unto you [f]by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

13 Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that [g]is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance: 15 but [h]like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living; 16 because it is written, [i]Ye shall be holy; for I am holy. 17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear: 18 knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers; 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot, even the blood of Christ: 20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of the times for your sake, 21 who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God. 22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another [j]from the heart fervently: 23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of [k]God, which liveth and abideth. 24 For,
[l]All flesh is as grass,
And all the glory thereof as the flower of grass.
The grass withereth, and the flower falleth:
25 But the [m]word of the Lord abideth for ever.
And this is the [n]word of good tidings which was [o]preached unto you.

Footnotes
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
so I guess I am not going to get an answer to this post from p.22...in response to a post directed at me by posthuman?

well, since this thread is not actually about discussing scripture in general, but rather the position taken by Calvin, I am surprised that anyone would think myself or another have somehow strayed off the op or prefer to discuss personalities when the truth is, the thread has a specific topic that has been discussed

no need to be unpleasant

do you believe that some are predestined for heaven and others are predestined to go to hell?

with no choice

that is predestination according to Calvin

that is the gist of the teaching and everything else skirts the issue it would seem

I do not believe those things

you sound more reasonsable in what you are saying then did Calvin

Calvin is represented by the TULIP teaching or 5 points of Calvinism as they are referred to that have been discussed ad infinitum in this forum

There are five main points to Calvinism spelled out by the TULIP acronymn:
  • Total Depravity/Inability
    • This is saying that man is hopelessly sinful. Man is incapable of being "good." Any "good" deed is truly motivated by something evil. The rest of the four points rely on this point.
  • Unconditional Election
    • This is what I find outrageous. Since man is totally evil, man's salvation is completely dependant upon God. This part is somewhat biblical; God chooses who he chooses. No matter how hard man tries, his actions alone cannot get him into heaven; God is the only one who has control. However, I believe that God will save those whose hearts are totally dedicated to Him, thus granting some influence to man. Afterall, God is just. However, calvinists see it otherwise. Calvinists believe that man has no free spiritual will.
  • Limited Atonement
    • Since God predestined the elect, Jesus paid only for those few elect.
  • Irresistible Grace
    • The elect have no choice about being elect. The elect cannot resist God's grace.
  • Perseverence of the Saints
    • Calvinists believe that once you're saved, you're always saved since God had predestined the elect and the elect have no choice about being elect.

the above explained by someone (not me) who is obviously not a Calvinist (hence the outrageous sentiment under the 'U')

a person could be OSAS I would think, without that automatically placing them in the TULIP category, but limited atonement flies in the face of 'whosoever will' and while there seem to be a good many OSASers around, I think few actually think God creates people to send them to hell WITH NO CHOICE or take them to be with Himself WITH NO CHOICE

since you say you have not read much by Calvin, I am posting the above since this is what Calvinism is and the rest is just a wardrobe change ;)

Calvinism hinges on TULIP...not OSAS

noticed you just directed a 3rd post to me...will read it later, perhaps in the meantime we can discuss 'tulips' :)

so I guess the above is all a mute point now. good. it speaks for itself anyway :rolleyes:
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Mmmm, donuts.
Mark your calendar. Since 1938 and every year since, National Doughnut Day is the first Friday of June.
You can't buy happiness but you can buy doughnuts! ;)

had no idea

I'm a little late then
 
Sep 1, 2019
64
27
18
Wyoming
God did not tell us how he slew him, it is not for us to question God. There are a lot of thoughts in my mind as to why God does, or does not do things, but I do know and trust in the fact that God does according to his will and his will is good enough for me. One of the major things with me is why God withholds from so many of his children the revelation of the doctrine that Jesus taught and only reveals it to a few.
Pathetic to say the least. Hebrew culture believed in the sovereignty of God in every event of life, yet they omitted the details. So, whatever happened to anyone at all, whether they died of a sickness or in an accident, the Hebrews would take that as the hand of God. God is love, He is not a murderer but a redeemer.

 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Jesus died for all, not for the elect. God is not a capricious deity that created people for the simple delight of hating them into hell. I cannot trust that kind of God because His nature would be flawed. Either He is eternal love (agape), or He is not (1Jn 4:16, 19)
Amen, God is NOT morally ambiguous.