Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
You believe we will have fleshly bodies in Heaven?
The redemption of our bodies happens at the rapture, the resurrection of the church. Our bodies will be changed to the image of Christ. Our new bodies will be flesh and bone but no blood.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
@7seasrekeyed disagreed with this? Wow! Faith comes by the word[Romans 10:17]. We are justified by faith[Romans 5:1, Galatians 3:8]. To be justified means to be declared righteous by the imputed righteousness of the Christ. So ppl can be declared righteous w/o ever hearing the word, never knowing who the Christ is? Wow, in ppl’s attempts to push themselves away from Calvinism, they run smack into hyper-Calvinism. 🤯🙄

She’s saying they can come to saving faith via external means, external in that they can come to faith outside of the word of God. That’s heresy.

I'll add you also sound like a school girl going nah nah nah nah nah

you don't address me...you appeal to everyone else here

that's called Argumentum ad populum (argument or appeal to the public). This is the fallacy of trying to prove something by showing that the public agrees with you.

again, you folks appear to be so happy if you think you have found something to pin on someone

it's really not very appealing ... but just like Calvin himself

She’s saying they can come to saving faith via external means, external in that they can come to faith outside of the word of God. That’s heresy.
only in your mind dude

only in your mind

the interesting thing is that you have accused Flowers of saying exactly the same and he didn't say such a thing either

it is actually your limited understanding of the gospel that prevents you from understanding

classic Calvinism
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,198
113
@Whispered asked this...

How could it be free will then only, when God being sovereign has predestined all things according to His will and due to His zeal for his own glory?
Yes, thank you. Perhaps someone will deem to do so.
I was making inquiry in my post as to your remarks in post #983."Free will apart form all constraints/determinants only existed prior to the fall. "
All you have to do is look at the cross.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32]

The crucifixion of the Christ was decreed by God. He was the driving force behind it. Yet, those who mocked, spit, pulled His beard from His face, nailed Him to the cross, all did so freely. No one made them do this. In Isaiah 10, God used the Assyrians to throttle Israel. In 1 Chronicles 5:26, God stirred up Pul and Tilgath-pilneser to attack Israel. God uses ppl to fulfill His purposes my friend. It’s there in your bible if you look them up. :)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
The redemption of our bodies happens at the rapture, the resurrection of the church. Our bodies will be changed to the image of Christ. Our new bodies will be flesh and bone but no blood.
The redemption of our bodies, which is the adoption (Romans 8:23), is what the believer is predestined to. The Lord doesn’t predestine someone until they believe the gospel and are found in Him, in Christ. No one is predestined to be in Christ.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
i love you bro

this is exactly whats true. calvinist whine about you not accepting their false doctrine but its all predetermined by God anyway. these guys need to stop whining and crying. but then again God predetermiend them to be nerds who whine cry and debate so thats on God too.

i just read news story in new york abortion up until birth. i nearly vomit in my mouth and calvinist james whitelie will tell me that its all predestined by God i hate it.
Regardless the debate doesn't change the individuals need for Christ. So it is a unproductive debate. Both sides produce scripture followed by their interpretation. Either way regardless of how people come to Christ we are told to believe and abide. Remain faithful.

This is the message of the evangelist. Believe and put your faith in Christ. We do not go to remote villages and ask okay who is God's elect? Please come forward. No we preach to all because ALL or whoever believes will be saved. John 3:16.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
So while dead in sin and hostility toward God you came to him by your own genuine love. Hmmm. Glory to you and your wonderous power and virtue. Congrats!!!
Dead as in eternal damnation. Not moral total depravity. Even a athiest can be moral by stealing from God the knowledge of the moral law. But yet deny the creator of the law. The law is self evident. They are still damned without Christ but you can see the affects of the moral law in mankind as they choose between good and evil or morality and immorality.

Criticism usually comes from the individuals that lack a good response.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
I'm not even sure what most of this means.

I will make no judgments about who is, and who is not in Heaven. Only that Old Testament Saints are with Jesus post crucifixion. Being freed from Abraham's Bosom in Hades/Sheol.

God said they died. Why are we trying to muck around with that simple, concrete terminology?
Because your adding your opinion of interpretation. The verse only says they surely will die. Then you went to explain that but the simple message was that they will die. Okay great but you are interpreting this verse to somehow say we are no longer created the image of God. Which is actually the first time I have ever heard that proclaimed.

But I suppose this is what happens when we conform our interpretation to our presuppositions.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
Because your adding your opinion of interpretation. The verse only says they surely will die. Then you went to explain that but the simple message was that they will die. Okay great but you are interpreting this verse to somehow say we are no longer created the image of God. Which is actually the first time I have ever heard that proclaimed.

But I suppose this is what happens when we conform our interpretation to our presuppositions.
Man’s image fell in the garden. Man’s image has been corrupted. We are born in the fallen image of Adam.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

1 Corinthians 15 says,
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

God’s going to fix our image one day.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
@Whispered asked this...




All you have to do is look at the cross.

this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.[Acts 2:23]

He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?[Romans 8:32]

The crucifixion of the Christ was decreed by God. He was the driving force behind it. Yet, those who mocked, spit, pulled His beard from His face, nailed Him to the cross, all did so freely. No one made them do this. In Isaiah 10, God used the Assyrians to throttle Israel. In 1 Chronicles 5:26, God stirred up Pul and Tilgath-pilneser to attack Israel. God uses ppl to fulfill His purposes my friend. It’s there in your bible if you look them up. :)
So as to the answer to the question I posed, do you believe in free will or not?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
They did it themselves. No one made them do it. You’re asking me questions the Bible doesn’t speak about. I have a rule of thumb, when the Bible doesn’t speak, neither do I. :)
Good I agree they chose themselves to rebel. And also agree that the Bible doesn't teach that God forces mankind against their will which is my point you shouldn't speak on it then. He only guides, draws, and prompts mankind to respond. The only part in scripture we are told to do is hear, believe, repent, and confess.

Romans 1:16 New International Version (NIV)
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
But they will have a real body my friend. There is a resurrection of the Just and unjust. And that doesn’t mean fair and unfair. You said God is just, but meant it as Him being fair. Him being just is Him doing what is right[Genesis 18:25].
What part of justice by a perfect judge isnt fair?Everyone will be judged fairly as in some saints will have more rewards in heaven or to the sinner all will be judged fairly off of how they responded to God. Gods judgment is always fair and just. His judgment is exactly what is owed to each individual.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
The redemption of our bodies happens at the rapture, the resurrection of the church. Our bodies will be changed to the image of Christ. Our new bodies will be flesh and bone but no blood.
But the flesh and the bones are corruptible stuff.
"Now, this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; he shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality ." The Book of Ist Corinthians chapter 15 verses 50 through 53
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
What part of justice by a perfect judge isnt fair?Everyone will be judged fairly as in some saints will have more rewards in heaven or to the sinner all will be judged fairly off of how they responded to God. Gods judgment is always fair and just. His judgment is exactly what is owed to each individual.
"For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. " The Book of John chapter 5 verses 22 through 24
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,101
3,684
113
But the flesh and the bones are corruptible stuff.
"Now, this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; he shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality ." The Book of Ist Corinthians chapter 15 verses 50 through 53
The blood is what is corrupt. This is why the Lord had to shed all of His blood as an example. Christ’s resurrection body had flesh and bone but no blood.

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
But they will have a real body my friend. There is a resurrection of the Just and unjust. And that doesn’t mean fair and unfair. You said God is just, but meant it as Him being fair. Him being just is Him doing what is right[Genesis 18:25].
A new Heaven and a new Earth. Currently only souls are in Heaven.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
"For the Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. " The Book of John chapter 5 verses 22 through 24
I say God because Jesus is God in the flesh. But yes thank you for the specific reference :)
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,847
4,504
113
Man’s image fell in the garden. Man’s image has been corrupted. We are born in the fallen image of Adam.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

1 Corinthians 15 says,
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

God’s going to fix our image one day.
How do you interpret this passage after the fall?

Genesis 9:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
4,551
2,230
113
www.christiancourier.com
The blood is what is corrupt. This is why the Lord had to shed all of His blood as an example. Christ’s resurrection body had flesh and bone but no blood.

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Jesus resurrection coincided with the Feast of First Fruits.
How do we reconcile Jesus appearance in His glorified body with what the Saint Apostle Paul observed about the corruptible flesh in 1st Corinthians 15?