Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,711
1,916
113
Exactly. SLAnderson always uses scripture out of context. He's hardly someone to emulate or use as an example of truthful exposition. Not surprised someone would stoop that low in attempt to buffer their erroneous beliefs.
Another person here told me to watch Gene Kim videos against Calvinism to educate myself.

Gene Kim is a Ruckmanite.

Even though Anderson is a nut, I think his critique of him was funny.

A lot of people here are not very discerning regarding the figures they listen to. If anyone doubts it, watch this video :)

These sorts of guys (IFB KJV Only guys) are like piranhas on a cannibalistic frenzy.

 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,416
113
Why pray for another's salvation if God doesn't interfere with their will?

By the way, God ordains both the means and the ends. That's what free-willers conveniently "forget" when they bring up your arguments.
why pray for another's salvation if some are predestined to be saved and some others. God ordains both means and ends is just another way of saying its a big drama show God is running
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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@CharliRenee

This is from @preacher4truth ...

Quoted by @preacher4truth ...


“That's a ridiculous response filled with many false accusations. Thanks?

You're right though, you don't understand it.

Thanks for stepping in to call those of us who know and believe that God elects based on nothing good in us, but only by unmerited favor, a thing we call grace, arrogant people as you suggested.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31? Study it out.

The only reason any are saved is because God predestined and elected to save whom he wills, Romans 8:26ff, Ephesians 1 &c; Romans 9. Since you've claimed the classic "anti evangelistic" accusation you may want to read and study how Paul the Calvinist saw and was confident in evangelization because God has his people, the elect, out there whom he will save; Acts 18:9-10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

In your diatribe you've called all those who died violent deaths for the cause of Christ arrogant, for they preached this same message, being Reformed, died for preaching this message of Christ you've assaulted.

You may want to go read some on Whitefield, John Bunyan, John Hus, Justyn Martyr, William Tyndale, all who embraced election, some died violent deaths for preaching this Gospel.

Your claim of arrogance, and anti evangelism, fear, doubt, they are all unfounded. Oh, and one last thing, we are more interested in him, not our belief system, something that has driven us to seek him out, and these truths he's revealed about himself. Its really sad seeing you take such swipes at us as you have.”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
13,175
5,981
113
Thanks for stepping in to call those of us who know and believe that God elects based on nothing good in us, but only by unmerited favor, a thing we call grace, arrogant people as you suggested.
Since God offers grace TO ALL, it is arrogant to teach that He offers grace to an elect few. Since Christ died for all, grace, pardon, and salvation are offered to all without exception. That's the meaning of "WHOSOEVER".
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,711
1,916
113
@CharliRenee

This is from @preacher4truth ...

Quoted by @preacher4truth ...


“That's a ridiculous response filled with many false accusations. Thanks?

You're right though, you don't understand it.

Thanks for stepping in to call those of us who know and believe that God elects based on nothing good in us, but only by unmerited favor, a thing we call grace, arrogant people as you suggested.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31? Study it out.

The only reason any are saved is because God predestined and elected to save whom he wills, Romans 8:26ff, Ephesians 1 &c; Romans 9. Since you've claimed the classic "anti evangelistic" accusation you may want to read and study how Paul the Calvinist saw and was confident in evangelization because God has his people, the elect, out there whom he will save; Acts 18:9-10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

In your diatribe you've called all those who died violent deaths for the cause of Christ arrogant, for they preached this same message, being Reformed, died for preaching this message of Christ you've assaulted.

You may want to go read some on Whitefield, John Bunyan, John Hus, Justyn Martyr, William Tyndale, all who embraced election, some died violent deaths for preaching this Gospel.

Your claim of arrogance, and anti evangelism, fear, doubt, they are all unfounded. Oh, and one last thing, we are more interested in him, not our belief system, something that has driven us to seek him out, and these truths he's revealed about himself. Its really sad seeing you take such swipes at us as you have.”

You might want to check out Tyler Vela on the Freed Thinker Podcast.

He is a former atheist who became a Reformed guy. He addresses a lot of myths that free-willers manufacture.

He did one on Calvin and Servetus, another on the Neo-Gnostic claim, and another one on whether we teach that God is the author of sin.


http://freedthinkerpodcast.blogspot.com/
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
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You might want to check out Tyler Vela on the Freed Thinker Podcast.

He is a former atheist who became a Reformed guy. He addresses a lot of myths that free-willers manufacture.

He did one on Calvin and Servetus, another on the Neo-Gnostic claim, and another one on whether we teach that God is the author of sin.


http://freedthinkerpodcast.blogspot.com/
Thank you for that.

I tend to believe the non-Reformed folk are deistic are best, full blown deists at worst. Here’s what I mean. Deism teaches an impersonal god created all we see, set it into motion and sets back and watches it unfold. Whenever the non-Reformed say God allows evil to happen, that’s no different than saying God sits back and does nothing to stop it. Things like the holocaust, the many times Israel was taken captive by other pagan nations, the fall of Adam, God sat back and let it happen. That’s deism. All things serve a purpose in God’s decreed will. There are several things we’re not privy to. We are called to trust Him, not know all the details.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
6,196
6,759
113
That's a ridiculous response filled with many false accusations. Thanks?

You're right though, you don't understand it.

Thanks for stepping in to call those of us who know and believe that God elects based on nothing good in us, but only by unmerited favor, a thing we call grace, arrogant people as you suggested.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31? Study it out.

The only reason any are saved is because God predestined and elected to save whom he wills, Romans 8:26ff, Ephesians 1 &c; Romans 9. Since you've claimed the classic "anti evangelistic" accusation you may want to read and study how Paul the Calvinist saw and was confident in evangelization because God has his people, the elect, out there whom he will save; Acts 18:9-10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

In your diatribe you've called all those who died violent deaths for the cause of Christ arrogant, for they preached this same message, being Reformed, died for preaching this message of Christ you've assaulted.

You may want to go read some on Whitefield, John Bunyan, John Hus, Justyn Martyr, William Tyndale, all who embraced election, some died violent deaths for preaching this Gospel.

Your claim of arrogance, and anti evangelism, fear, doubt, they are all unfounded. Oh, and one last thing, we are more interested in him, not our belief system, something that has driven us to seek him out, and these truths he's revealed about himself. Its really sad seeing you take such swipes at us as you have.
I in no way meant to attack you or anyone.

I was just giving my thoughts to unconditional election, not on those who believe it.
@CharliRenee

This is from @preacher4truth ...

Quoted by @preacher4truth ...


“That's a ridiculous response filled with many false accusations. Thanks?

You're right though, you don't understand it.

Thanks for stepping in to call those of us who know and believe that God elects based on nothing good in us, but only by unmerited favor, a thing we call grace, arrogant people as you suggested.

1 Corinthians 1:26-31? Study it out.

The only reason any are saved is because God predestined and elected to save whom he wills, Romans 8:26ff, Ephesians 1 &c; Romans 9. Since you've claimed the classic "anti evangelistic" accusation you may want to read and study how Paul the Calvinist saw and was confident in evangelization because God has his people, the elect, out there whom he will save; Acts 18:9-10; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

In your diatribe you've called all those who died violent deaths for the cause of Christ arrogant, for they preached this same message, being Reformed, died for preaching this message of Christ you've assaulted.

You may want to go read some on Whitefield, John Bunyan, John Hus, Justyn Martyr, William Tyndale, all who embraced election, some died violent deaths for preaching this Gospel.

Your claim of arrogance, and anti evangelism, fear, doubt, they are all unfounded. Oh, and one last thing, we are more interested in him, not our belief system, something that has driven us to seek him out, and these truths he's revealed about himself. Its really sad seeing you take such swipes at us as you have.”
I saw this when he wrote it, but clearly my response offended him and you too. I was just giving my thoughts, had no intention to be confrontational.

He is right, I don't understand unconditional election. It does not make sense to me. It doesn't and that is my truth. I was not making false accusations. I was just explaining why it didn't make sense to me.

This is what we do here.

Listen, I come in peace.

I apologize if I have insulted you or preacher, that is something I never want to do. I stand by what I said ,though, because I was just speaking my mind on this particular belief, not coming against people.

Listen, I just want to say that we Christ followers believe we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, that He is the way and the truth and the life. I may not be right about the unconditional election. I make room for that possibility. I hope that I never stop learning.

For now though... well, you already know where I stand.

He is the one that wil present us blameless before God. I am so grateful.

In the meantime, God Bless you and yours.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
113
Another person here told me to watch Gene Kim videos against Calvinism to educate myself.

Gene Kim is a Ruckmanite.

Even though Anderson is a nut, I think his critique of him was funny.

A lot of people here are not very discerning regarding the figures they listen to. If anyone doubts it, watch this video :)

These sorts of guys (IFB KJV Only guys) are like piranhas on a cannibalistic frenzy.

Yes! Someone posted a video of Gene Kim praising Gail Riplinger, Peter Ruckman, and I think Sam Gipp. He then took his diatribe and directed it at Dr. James White and said he would have to bow before these ppl(none will bow before anyone other than the Christ) and admit he was wrong. He then said the original Greek was garbage, and Andrew Sluder jumped up and started fanning his bible at Gene Kim like he was on fire. He's not, just yet...
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
113
Why pray for another's salvation if God doesn't interfere with their will?

By the way, God ordains both the means and the ends. That's what free-willers conveniently "forget" when they bring up your arguments.
I wonder how do they pray for their lost loved ones.

"Father, I have family, friends, precious loved ones who are lost. Will you Father please save them? Wait, if You do that, then You would have to override their free will. You are a good God, One who is a Gentleman, who will never force anyone to be saved. The doorknob is on the inside and You will not kick it down."

***Starts prayer over again***

"Father, I have family, friends, precious loved ones who are lost. Will You work a way into their lives where you don't violate their free will, but You draw them to Yourself? Wait, the Greek word for 'draw' is 'helko' and that means to literally drag off. So if You do that, then You are dragging them kicking and screaming against their wills. So Father, will You please open their eyes, ears, and hearts...wait, if You do that without first gaining their consent, then You are violating their free will again. Father, will you please help them in a way that does not violate their free will? Will you work in a way that you gain their approval and assistance in You saving them? Only You know how to save them and not violate their free will. In Jesus' name, amen!"
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,711
113
I in no way meant to attack you or anyone.

I was just giving my thoughts to unconditional election, not on those who believe it.

I saw this when he wrote it, but clearly my response offended him and you too. I was just giving my thoughts, had no intention to be confrontational.

He is right, I don't understand unconditional election. It does not make sense to me. It doesn't and that is my truth. I was not making false accusations. I was just explaining why it didn't make sense to me.

This is what we do here.

Listen, I come in peace.

I apologize if I have insulted you or preacher, that is something I never want to do. I stand by what I said ,though, because I was just speaking my mind on this particular belief, not coming against people.

Listen, I just want to say that we Christ followers believe we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, that He is the way and the truth and the life. I may not be right about the unconditional election. I make room for that possibility. I hope that I never stop learning.

For now though... well, you already know where I stand.

He is the one that wil present us blameless before God. I am so grateful.

In the meantime, God Bless you and yours.
Thanks for your response...

Though the things you said about those who believe this biblical doctrine were unwarranted, I accept your apology.

I also want to say for the record there is no knowing of him outside his revealed word, it is not a mystical or subjective means by which we know him, it is through revealed truth in the word. To mitigate doctrine is to mitigate what he has revealed. 1 Timothy 4:16. Proverbs 23:23.

I would ask you to carefully read Exodus 33:12-23 where Moses requested a more intimate walk with God and knowledge of him. It may shock you, but God's answer was to tell Moses (and us) a certain thing about himself, and it is his unconditional election; Exodus 33:19. This is why we glory in him and this truth, and humbly, not arrogantly. It is to know him by what he reveals, and that is precious and comforting.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
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Thanks for your response...

Though the things you said about those who believe this biblical doctrine were unwarranted, I accept your apology.

I also want to say for the record there is no knowing of him outside his revealed word, it is not a mystical or subjective means by which we know him, it is through revealed truth in the word. To mitigate doctrine is to mitigate what he has revealed. 1 Timothy 4:16. Proverbs 23:23.

I would ask you to carefully read Exodus 33:12-23 where Moses requested a more intimate walk with God and knowledge of him. It may shock you, but God's answer was to tell Moses (and us) a certain thing about himself, and it is his unconditional election; Exodus 33:19. This is why we glory in him and this truth, and humbly, not arrogantly. It is to know him by what he reveals, and that is precious and comforting.
“I Myself will make all My goodness pass before you, and will proclaim the name of the LORD before you; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show compassion on whom I will show compassion.”[Exodus 33:19] Doesn't seem to cover everybody worldwide or all whoever lived, does it my friend?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,711
1,916
113
Thank you for that.

I tend to believe the non-Reformed folk are deistic are best, full blown deists at worst. Here’s what I mean. Deism teaches an impersonal god created all we see, set it into motion and sets back and watches it unfold. Whenever the non-Reformed say God allows evil to happen, that’s no different than saying God sits back and does nothing to stop it. Things like the holocaust, the many times Israel was taken captive by other pagan nations, the fall of Adam, God sat back and let it happen. That’s deism. All things serve a purpose in God’s decreed will. There are several things we’re not privy to. We are called to trust Him, not know all the details.
In regards to God's decrees, I view them as either passive or active. God actively decrees certain things, causing them to occur, and he passively decrees other things by allowing them to happen.

I get your reference to deism, though. They are forced into that position by their theology. If they don't believe there is an elect group, and that Jesus atoned for their sins, and the Holy Spirit applies this effectively to all the elect, and the rest simply aren't
I wonder how do they pray for their lost loved ones.

"Father, I have family, friends, precious loved ones who are lost. Will you Father please save them? Wait, if You do that, then You would have to override their free will. You are a good God, One who is a Gentleman, who will never force anyone to be saved. The doorknob is on the inside and You will not kick it down."

***Starts prayer over again***

"Father, I have family, friends, precious loved ones who are lost. Will You work a way into their lives where you don't violate their free will, but You draw them to Yourself? Wait, the Greek word for 'draw' is 'helko' and that means to literally drag off. So if You do that, then You are dragging them kicking and screaming against their wills. So Father, will You please open their eyes, ears, and hearts...wait, if You do that without first gaining their consent, then You are violating their free will again. Father, will you please help them in a way that does not violate their free will? Will you work in a way that you gain their approval and assistance in You saving them? Only You know how to save them and not violate their free will. In Jesus' name, amen!"
Yeah, seems inconsistent.

However, I want to be clear that my position is that God regenerates the sinner, giving them a heart of flesh and changing their nature so that they desire Him. This is what leads to faith and repentance. So, I don't consider that God violates their will but changes their nature and their will falls in line.

Somehow even that is supposed to be a violent act, akin to rape, in their eyes though. Imagine the tragedy of restoring man to his created purpose, to worship and love his Creator :)

Instead, they insist upon decisional regeneration..that man must dredge up faith and repentance from his stony heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. How coherent is that?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,701
2,645
113
Since God offers grace TO ALL, it is arrogant to teach that He offers grace to an elect few. Since Christ died for all, grace, pardon, and salvation are offered to all without exception. That's the meaning of "WHOSOEVER".
Christ didn't die for all. Christ died for all who are Saved. For those who are not Saved Christs death gives them no blessing.

Salvation appears to be offered to all. From our perspective. But some are Saved and some aren't.


So what is the CAUSE of some being Saved and some NOT being Saved?

If God is Sovereign isn't God the Cause of Salvation? Isn't that what the bible says?

1 Corinthians 1:26-29
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.


Aren't you, and those who disagree with the reformed position, trying to place people in Gods Position, and saying that the foolish things of the world have chosen God, and the weak things of the world have chosen God, and base things have chosen God, and this MUST be the case or God is mean and nothing matters?


Why is it so obvious in the matters of WORKS Salvation that God is the One that does the Work of Salvation, but in the matter of CAUSE and CHOICE some people put WORKS at odds in Salvation?

Is it just a misunderstanding of Scripture? Or is it purposeful?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
3,711
1,916
113
My comment is not what I believe but what UWC had stated.
By the way, I never stated that the elect were not under God's wrath and condemnation prior to salvation.

They certainly were.

In fact, I've said about a dozen times that God elects certain individuals from eternity past for salvation, marking them out. Jesus atoned for their sins on the Cross. This atonement is applied by the Holy Spirit.

Until the Holy Spirit applies the atonement, the elect are under his wrath and condemnation.

Reformed theology does honor to the Triune nature of God, by their consistency. The Father elects individuals, giving them to the Son, who atones for their sin, and the Holy Spirit applies this atonement in time.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
1,416
113
I in no way meant to attack you or anyone.

I was just giving my thoughts to unconditional election, not on those who believe it.

I saw this when he wrote it, but clearly my response offended him and you too. I was just giving my thoughts, had no intention to be confrontational.

He is right, I don't understand unconditional election. It does not make sense to me. It doesn't and that is my truth. I was not making false accusations. I was just explaining why it didn't make sense to me.

This is what we do here.

Listen, I come in peace.

I apologize if I have insulted you or preacher, that is something I never want to do. I stand by what I said ,though, because I was just speaking my mind on this particular belief, not coming against people.

Listen, I just want to say that we Christ followers believe we are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, that He is the way and the truth and the life. I may not be right about the unconditional election. I make room for that possibility. I hope that I never stop learning.

For now though... well, you already know where I stand.

He is the one that wil present us blameless before God. I am so grateful.

In the meantime, God Bless you and yours.
dont worry calvinists are professionals at getting offended while being offensive and rude and condescending. its the way they are programmed we are still runing tests to see if they are humans or not. could be robots or clones. so cold.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
113
In regards to God's decrees, I view them as either passive or active. God actively decrees certain things, causing them to occur, and he passively decrees other things by allowing them to happen.

I get your reference to deism, though. They are forced into that position by their theology. If they don't believe there is an elect group, and that Jesus atoned for their sins, and the Holy Spirit applies this effectively to all the elect, and the rest simply aren't


Yeah, seems inconsistent.

However, I want to be clear that my position is that God regenerates the sinner, giving them a heart of flesh and changing their nature so that they desire Him. This is what leads to faith and repentance. So, I don't consider that God violates their will but changes their nature and their will falls in line.

Somehow even that is supposed to be a violent act, akin to rape, in their eyes though. Imagine the tragedy of restoring man to his created purpose, to worship and love his Creator :)

Instead, they insist upon decisional regeneration..that man must dredge up faith and repentance from his stony heart, in order to receive a heart of flesh. How coherent is that?
I’ve heard(and once believed) God has an active and passive decree. I don’t see Him being passive, but active in them. But I am willing to learn. What ya got to change my mind?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,701
2,645
113
I’ve heard(and once believed) God has an active and passive decree. I don’t see Him being passive, but active in them. But I am willing to learn. What ya got to change my mind?
God is not the Author of sin.

Yet sin exists.

Because of Gods Passive Will it exists.

Gods Active Will only creates that which is Good.

Gods Passive Will allows things that are seemingly against (for the time being) His Active Will.


That's my understanding.
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
1,197
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God is not the Author of sin.

Yet sin exists.

Because of Gods Passive Will it exists.

Gods Active Will only creates that which is Good.

Gods Passive Will allows things that are seemingly against (for the time being) His Active Will.


That's my understanding.
That’s all well and good, but what verses can you posit that will change my mind? If you got them, post them, and I will gladly study them over.

The most atrocious act know to mankind, God was active in. He wasn’t passive in it at all.