Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53
Oct 25, 2018
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show me where it says with atonement comes reconciliation that if Jesus dies for someone they are automatically saved guaranteed and i will join you
2 Cor. 5:18-19.

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

The ‘us’ properly understood is believers. Also take note that those who are being reconciled to God do not have their trespasses counted against them. So, world can not mean ‘everybody whoever lived’ as many died, are dying now, and will die later, whose sins haven’t been remitted. They die w/o ever being reconciled.

1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit![Psalm 32]

“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”[Romans 4:8]

So, according to these three places, only those who have been reconciled are not having their sins accounted unto them. How so? The Christ atoned for them on the cross.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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2 Cor. 5:18-19.

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

The ‘us’ properly understood is believers. Also take note that those who are being reconciled to God do not have their trespasses counted against them. So, world can not mean ‘everybody whoever lived’ as many died, are dying now, and will die later, whose sins haven’t been remitted. They die w/o ever being reconciled.

1 How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit![Psalm 32]

“BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT.”[Romans 4:8]

So, according to these three places, only those who have been reconciled are not having their sins accounted unto them. How so? The Christ atoned for them on the cross.
but why does st.paul also say "be ye reconciled"? right after the world was reconciled to Himself, but it also says be ye reconciled, by believing gospel?
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
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3 or 4 times she called me a liar and via innuendo called me a fool. Let her say that to you and see how you feel. A fool has said in his heart there is no God. By calling me a fool by innuendo she’s saying I’ve said in my heart God doesn’t exist. But she’s non-Reformed and will get away with it on here. :rolleyes:
I feel you bro. Don't worry bro i've been called much worse ;) After i've been stabbed words hardly make a dent on me!

I was just trying to nudge you guys towards squashing the beef.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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no we dont.

we just say Jesus atoned for everyone, some are still not saved because no faith. simple like that.

atonement in itself doesnt save, it needs to be faith too. just like in bible, in the wilderness the brozen serpent provided atonement for all bit, but only those who looked were actually saved. they had faith those others didnt, atonement was there but it did them no good
Then you truly don't know what the Lord has accomplished in the Atonement.

The Blood of the Lamb has cleansed us of all sins.

This Blood is SUFFICIENT for all but this Blood is not EFFICACIOUS for all.

Meaning that the ACTUAL Atonement is LIMITED to believers. Unbelievers do not receive Atonement.


If All sins have been Atoned for by the Blood of Christ then there is nothing for the world to be saved FROM. If the Atonement is Limited to believers then only believers are cleansed from their sins and therefore saved.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Ma’am, I honestly tried to engage you, but you’ve done nothing but hurl insult after insult at me. I’ve tried being civil with you, but alas, to no avail. I took you off ignore in hopes of a civil debate. I am sorry for wasting your’s and my time. :(
:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:
Reminds me of another poster er two. Er three, er more. On another thread. Concerning a different "topic."
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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i thought that was agreed 50 pages ago?

the truth is in the reconciliation of these three facts:
  • He died for all
    • ex. 2 Cor. 5:15, Hebrews 2:9
  • He bore the sins of many
    • ex. Hebrews 9:28, Isaiah 53:12
  • not all are saved
    • ex. Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:33
Well, I would think so too.

But then people keep implying Universal Atonement. But then backtrack and say the Atonement is for all but only applied to those who believe.

Well then by their own words the Atonement is Limited to those who believe. Exactly what has been stated.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Then you truly don't know what the Lord has accomplished in the Atonement.

The Blood of the Lamb has cleansed us of all sins.

This Blood is SUFFICIENT for all but this Blood is not EFFICACIOUS for all.

Meaning that the ACTUAL Atonement is LIMITED to believers. Unbelievers do not receive Atonement.


If All sins have been Atoned for by the Blood of Christ then there is nothing for the world to be saved FROM. If the Atonement is Limited to believers then only believers are cleansed from their sins and therefore saved.
People that believe that Jesus died for all, even for those who don't believe. Must be "books" believers, or seekers! According to this verse in the Revelation:
Revelation 20
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and (then) another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But, this is the "Great White Throne Judgement."

Funny, they would wish to wait until then! Ain't it?
:unsure::unsure::unsure:
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Your side of this debate said that the Christ’s death was for everyone. The death, the shedding of His blood, is what gave us the atonement. If He died for everybody, then He atoned for everybody. Ergo, an unlimited/universal atonement.

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. I John 2:2

neither myself nor any other non-Calvinist responding in this thread has EVER stated that we believe salvation is universal; however the Bible itself does state that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world

repeating your Calvinist doctrine over and over and falsely accusing people of saying things they did not say nor intend, does not hold any water unless of course you are baptized in the Calvin method of debate which includes repeating something longer and louder than anyone else so as to sound credible

this statement of yours:
If the atonement is universal, so is the salvation. No one atoned for will die lost.
suggests that stating Jesus died for all automatically equates to salvation for all...ie universalism

that was the entire debate yesterday and reading the posts made, anyone can see that. apparently you prefer to create a post that consists of mainly untrue statements of things I said and the other calvinists gather round to help you out

I find that behavior typical of Calvinist threads and the vitriol and nastiness that accompanies it is also typical

it is plain what I said and your devious responses are also very apparent

no one has said that the atonement covers non-believers

your conclusion is therefore that we all actually believe what Calvin teaches

however, the Bible plainly refutes Calvinism by stating Jesus died for the sins of the world

and I have stated mulitple times in this and other threads, as have others, that only those who accept Christ and believe as per scripture, are saved
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
You don't know what your talking about.

I bet with some personal study likened to the amount of time you spend on here arguing, describing your ill will and feelings towards others, charging others with hateful innuendos, name-calling, callow and false assertions, and just plain ugly behaviors you may, may arrive at the truth of the matter.

Jesus died for the sins of the elect. Only. Not every person who ever lived. Try to understand what you're talking about, your stance and attitude are un-Christ-like and un-Biblical, two severe and solemn issues.

Now, are you going to go after me again, slam me, show your disdain that you have for me yet again? You've held this serious grudge ever since I started a thread about Osteen. You went on a callow, needless and relentless attack only to later, and hypocritically start similar threads yourself.

Ever wonder why your heart has all that in it, and it comes out your mouth to the keyboard towards others regularly? Galatians 5:16-21 has the answer. Galatians 6:1-10 warns persons of said behavior, note especially Galatians 6:9.

Try studying, and try growing in grace and knowledge; 2 Peter 3:18.
in your economy, it would seem personal attacks against others, myself this time around, are equal to scripture

intimidation is not scripture and your opinions are not either. there is nothing above that you could not apply to yourself while looking real hard into your own eyes in a mirror

It takes grace to respond in the correct way, and she isn't doing it, unfortunately. But I will pray for her out of genuine love and concern. Christ my LORD has forgiven me much, I hold no grudge like she has, Leviticus 19:18. Fulfilling this verse is a picture of redemption via Christ and his Gospel. I say this because it cannot be accomplished in the flesh.
we do not have the same understanding of grace but it appears you have understood Calvins' idea of grace which is actually what this entire thing is about

Now, are you going to go after me again, slam me, show your disdain that you have for me yet again? You've held this serious grudge ever since I started a thread about Osteen. You went on a callow, needless and relentless attack only to later, and hypocritically start similar threads yourself.
I have never 'gone after you'. that is your inflated ego talking. I very much disagree with your TULIP beliefs and it seems you hold those who do so in such distain that you loose better judgement and must attack them personally rather than try to stick to the actual topic at hand

for someone who holds no grudge, you seem to be referring to some incident that actually appears to have created such a grudge that you bring it up again. whatever
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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neither myself nor any other non-Calvinist responding in this thread has EVER stated that we believe salvation is universal; however the Bible itself does state that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world
Calvinists are BLIND TO THE FACT that while Christ died for the sins of the whole world, only those who obey the Gospel will be saved.

They simply cannot understand the grace of God since they sincerely (and mistakenly) believe that the Gospel is about the sovereignty of God, even though Scripture says otherwise.

TITUS 2 -- GOD'S GRACE TO ALL MANKIND
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
If the Atonement is for the Whole World then the Whole World is Saved.

That is the essence of Universalism, isn't it?

In order for it to NOT be Universalism wouldn't you HAVE TO agree with the Calvinist view that the Atonement is only for those who believe??? Only those who believe are Saved...

what I see is limited understanding to what I wrote, never mind limited anything else

John plainly states that Jesus died for the sins of the world...not just those who would be saved

John the Baptist states that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world

when understood in light of the fact that no one is saved automatically, nor are they forced to be saved in spite of themself, it is understood by most believers to mean that while Jesus died for all, as scripture states, all will not come to salvation

somehow, I see Calvinists mocking what is written about John 3:16. it is incredible that anyone could read that or study that and conclude it does not say what it plainly states.

WHOSOEVER WILL.. Calvin has no say in the matter and neither does anyone else no matter how much they deny it or mock the correct understanding

your reference to universalism is duly noted but that is your reference and not at all what I said or believe
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest

it becomes apparent the more I study it and see how Calvinists react to any rebuttal to what they believe
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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Well, I would think so too.

But then people keep implying Universal Atonement. But then backtrack and say the Atonement is for all but only applied to those who believe.

Well then by their own words the Atonement is Limited to those who believe. Exactly what has been stated.
Look to the OT for a type. The brazen serpent was carried throughout the camp but only those who looked upon it recovered from the snake bites that were killing them. Don't look and die or look and live. Choices must be made.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Oct 25, 2018
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but why does st.paul also say "be ye reconciled"? right after the world was reconciled to Himself, but it also says be ye reconciled, by believing gospel?
Because w/o the atonement there could be no reconciliation.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
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Because w/o the atonement there could be no reconciliation.
yes. but just because atonement is made doesnt mean you are reconciled. you have to receive it.
be ye reconciled

Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Jesus had already died, but these people werent saved unlesss they believed the gospel. when they believe they are reconciled. before they believe their sins are atoned for already, but not forgiven until they believe.


this is so easy to understand dont know how you guys dont get it. its all over the bible. nothing complicated about it-
 
Oct 25, 2018
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yes. but just because atonement is made doesnt mean you are reconciled. you have to receive it.
be ye reconciled


Acts 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Jesus had already died, but these people werent saved unlesss they believed the gospel. when they believe they are reconciled. before they believe their sins are atoned for already, but not forgiven until they believe.

this is so easy to understand dont know how you guys dont get it. its all over the bible. nothing complicated about it-
Again, either the atonement is efficacious or it isn’t.

With the atonement came reconciliation, correct? Which means two former enemies have become friends. It was through the cross His ppl became reconciled, correct?

Now, how so? The atonement also satisfied God’s wrath. He is satisfied with the work of His Son’ s cross work. If He is satisfied with it and His wrath is satisfied, then the cross was efficacious for those it was intended for.

So, if the cross was for everybody w/o exception, then God’s wrath for everybody w/o exception has been satisfied. Meaning, on the day of judgment, He has no wrath to mete out.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
1,864
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Again, either the atonement is efficacious or it isn’t.

With the atonement came reconciliation, correct? Which means two former enemies have become friends. It was through the cross His ppl became reconciled, correct?

Now, how so? The atonement also satisfied God’s wrath. He is satisfied with the work of His Son’ s cross work. If He is satisfied with it and His wrath is satisfied, then the cross was efficacious for those it was intended for.

So, if the cross was for everybody w/o exception, then God’s wrath for everybody w/o exception has been satisfied. Meaning, on the day of judgment, He has no wrath to mete out.
this is just some mental games here. atonement is not efficacious unless people have faith in it. i think efficacious means the same as effective, saving. if not i take back what i said
 
Oct 25, 2018
2,377
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this is just some mental games here. atonement is not efficacious unless people have faith in it. i think efficacious means the same as effective, saving. if not i take back what i said
So, the cross doesn’t save unless they do something?