Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Look at the holocaust for instance. One of the most vile events that ever happened. If God did not decree it, but allowed it to happen, and it served no purpose, then God is cruel for allowing it to happen w/o stopping it.

no more vile then being carried off into captivity

and what caused that?

DISOBEDIENCE

and why were they disobedient?

BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO BE

or did the OT prophets follow a lying spirit when they prophesied?

God is not cruel

the wages of sin is death

you ought to remember that. sin has no rewards. its wages are death

and by the way, what purpose does creating human beings specifically to go to hell serve?

crickets
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
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Even the King Jimmy doesn’t say “without Him knowing “ that’s conjecture on your part. I checked about a dozen translations that say something similar to “His Will”.
Even the King Jimmy doesn’t say “without Him knowing “ that’s conjecture on your part. I checked about a dozen translations that say something similar to “His Will”.
Again, the context is God knowing.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
CHOICE

we all have choices to make

God is not a puppet master

The English word 'Choose' appears 59 times in the King James Version of the Bible.

amazingly, the Hebrew Bible uses 4 different variations which are used a total of 246 times. The New Testament uses 10 variations which are used 65 times. In total, the concept of choice & selection, is used 311 times

how can anyone deny this is so?
 
Oct 25, 2018
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God’s will in the holocaust was to murder millions of Jews? That’s not a sick view of God?
Was it God’s will for Israel to wipe the Amalekites off the face of the earth in 1 Samuel 15?
Was it God’s will to wipe the Egyptians out in the flood?
Was it God’s will to wipe out the whole human race minus 8 souls?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Was it God’s will for Israel to wipe the Amalekites off the face of the earth in 1 Samuel 15?
Was it God’s will to wipe the Egyptians out in the flood?
Was it God’s will to wipe out the whole human race minus 8 souls?

and WHY was it God's will?

BECAUSE THEY CHOSE TO DO EVIL IN HIS SIGHT

again, the wages of sin is death...physical but worse, spiritual death

you might as well ask, given your belief in the teachings of Calvin, why didn't God turn that irresistible grace upon them?

it does not exist would be the correct answer

GOD'S PLAN IS ALWAYS RECONCILIATION. ALWAYS
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
maybe to your finally tuned Calvinistic nose, but I am positive you know better than that actually

we have all seen enough of John146's posts to know he believes nothing of the sort

but of course, why would any true Calvinists ever miss an opportunity to cast doubt on another or falsely accuse them

bravo! you are so predictable :rolleyes:

it seems you wish to believe that God directly kills the little birds

you don't account for sin in the world affecting creation even though the Bible states ALL creation groans in it's present state and since you do not believe in actual choice, your responses MUST twist what others say
I must admit I am getting more and more "negative" toward Calvinism the more I read on here and on the internet. Some adherents to this theology seem to use a "pidgeon hole" strategy. Where they pin you into a certain heresy, and no matter which direction you move, you are in some heresy.

Or I guess I could call it "boogeymen strategy" as one guy on youtube called it. You will be called: Catholic, Pelagian, Arminian, Synergist, Universalist, wanting credit for salvation, worshiping free-will, cant stand a sovereing God and on it goes. We also have many false dichotomies, playing around with Augustine/Pelagius, Sufficient/Efficient and listing of scholars of the past. There is a good video about it where someone breaks down these different tactics used. This causes you to be constantly on the defensive, meaning you have to say "No I am not in this heresy and here is why:". It balances out the conversation to the favor of the one pressing the issue.

The funny thing is that most Christians probably dont even know what many of those words mean. I would consider myself a fairly simple person. I like the KISS method (keep it simple stupid!). I pick up my Bible, I read it, I compare Scripture with Scripture, I pray about it, I believe it and come to a final conclusion and settle in a doctrine or a teaching from it.
I try not to pin any labels on myself, because if I did, I would be rejected by most or some in that camp anyway. I would be considered a Dispensational, moderate charismatic, pre-trib rapture believing synergist mishmash of things lol.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,695
113
Was it God’s will for Israel to wipe the Amalekites off the face of the earth in 1 Samuel 15?
Was it God’s will to wipe the Egyptians out in the flood?
Was it God’s will to wipe out the whole human race minus 8 souls?
Yes.
1. Protecting the seed line
2. ???
3. All flesh had corrupted themselves with the sons of God except Noah’s line, again dealing with the promised seed line

I’ve battled cancer for over two years. Did God cause me to have cancer or did I simply get it because we live in a fallen world and such things happen naturally?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,695
113
I must admit I am getting more and more "negative" toward Calvinism the more I read on here and on the internet. Some adherents to this theology seem to use a "pidgeon hole" strategy. Where they pin you into a certain heresy, and no matter which direction you move, you are in some heresy.

Or I guess I could call it "boogeymen strategy" as one guy on youtube called it. You will be called: Catholic, Pelagian, Arminian, Synergist, Universalist, wanting credit for salvation, worshiping free-will, cant stand a sovereing God and on it goes. We also have many false dichotomies, playing around with Augustine/Pelagius, Sufficient/Efficient and listing of scholars of the past. There is a good video about it where someone breaks down these different tactics used. This causes you to be constantly on the defensive, meaning you have to say "No I am not in this heresy and here is why:". It balances out the conversation to the favor of the one pressing the issue.

The funny thing is that most Christians probably dont even know what many of those words mean. I would consider myself a fairly simple person. I like the KISS method (keep it simple stupid!). I pick up my Bible, I read it, I compare Scripture with Scripture, I pray about it, I believe it and come to a final conclusion and settle in a doctrine or a teaching from it.
I try not to pin any labels on myself, because if I did, I would be rejected by most or some in that camp anyway. I would be considered a Dispensational, moderate charismatic, pre-trib rapture believing synergist mishmash of things lol.
Man doesn’t want to be held accountable. “God causes all things to happen,” blah, blah, blah...
 
Oct 25, 2018
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Yes.
1. Protecting the seed line
2. ???
3. All flesh had corrupted themselves with the sons of God except Noah’s line, again dealing with the promised seed line

I’ve battled cancer for over two years. Did God cause me to have cancer or did I simply get it because we live in a fallen world and such things happen naturally?
Cancer is from the fall of Adam. Granted, not everyone gets it. My wife had a double mastectomy this year and a hysterectomy as well. God used that breast cancer to bring her to Himself. I never said He caused it my friend, but that He used it.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
Man doesn’t want to be held accountable. “God causes all things to happen,” blah, blah, blah...
God decrees all things yet is responsible for none of the evil? That is what is really being promoted. Hmm. I have not even thought of the dangerous consequences of Calvinism.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,695
113
Cancer is from the fall of Adam. Granted, not everyone gets it. My wife had a double mastectomy this year and a hysterectomy as well. God used that breast cancer to bring her to Himself. I never said He caused it my friend, but that He used it.
You would agree then, that God did not cause the holocaust, but used the evil decisions of man to eventually bring glory to Himself.
 
Oct 25, 2018
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You would agree then, that God did not cause the holocaust, but used the evil decisions of man to eventually bring glory to Himself.
Did God cause the assault of the temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Yes. But He Himself used men to do it for Him. I’d think the holocaust would fall along those lines my friend. It’s called secondary causes. He uses ppl to fulfill His decreed will.

Did God send the lying spirit upon the prophets in King Ahab’s time to deceive the ppl? Yes. He does things like this to punish sinners.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,925
13,607
113
God decrees all things yet is responsible for none of the evil? That is what is really being promoted. Hmm. I have not even thought of the dangerous consequences of Calvinism.
What does the Bible say?
Is God omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent?
Yup.
Is God the author of evil?
Nope.

So i wouldn't blame some -ism
 
Oct 25, 2018
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What does the Bible say?
Is God omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent?
Yup.
Is God the author of evil?
Nope.

So i wouldn't blame some -ism
Exactly. God uses ppl to fulfill His decreed will, yet He never makes anyone sin. The cross is the penultimate example of this. They freely, of the hatred in their hearts towards the Christ, freely and gladly had Him nailed to that cross. :(
 
Oct 25, 2018
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You would agree then, that God did not cause the holocaust, but used the evil decisions of man to eventually bring glory to Himself.
God did not directly, by primary causes, cause the holocaust my friend. But He used ppl to fulfill it for Him, via secondary causes.

It’s not authoritative, but the 1689 LBCoF does a good job of explaining it and gives scriptural references, too.


Chapter 3 - God's Decree

1. From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself.1 He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. 2 This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. 3 In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree.4

1) Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18.

2) James 1:13; 1 John 1:5.

3) Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11.

4) Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3–5.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
CHOICE

we all have choices to make

God is not a puppet master

The English word 'Choose' appears 59 times in the King James Version of the Bible.

amazingly, the Hebrew Bible uses 4 different variations which are used a total of 246 times. The New Testament uses 10 variations which are used 65 times. In total, the concept of choice & selection, is used 311 times

how can anyone deny this is so?
They contend that people can only choose wrong in their natural state. That idea would negate all the verses you are talking about.

Why would God tell us to choose if we cannot choose outside of our "nature"? It makes no sense whatsoever. I believe the idea we cannot choose outside of our nature is making humans more like animals, instead of created in God's image. As was said above, lions may not choose to eat grass due to their nature, but many humans choose to go vegan ;)