Is unconditional election biblical?

[7seasrekeyed]

I must admit I am getting more and more "negative" toward Calvinism the more I read on here and on the internet. Some adherents to this theology seem to use a "pidgeon hole" strategy. Where they pin you into a certain heresy, and no matter which direction you move, you are in some heresy.

Or I guess I could call it "boogeymen strategy" as one guy on youtube called it. You will be called: Catholic, Pelagian, Arminian, Synergist, Universalist, wanting credit for salvation, worshiping free-will, cant stand a sovereing God and on it goes. We also have many false dichotomies, playing around with Augustine/Pelagius, Sufficient/Efficient and listing of scholars of the past. There is a good video about it where someone breaks down these different tactics used. This causes you to be constantly on the defensive, meaning you have to say "No I am not in this heresy and here is why:". It balances out the conversation to the favor of the one pressing the issue.

The funny thing is that most Christians probably dont even know what many of those words mean. I would consider myself a fairly simple person. I like the KISS method (keep it simple stupid!). I pick up my Bible, I read it, I compare Scripture with Scripture, I pray about it, I believe it and come to a final conclusion and settle in a doctrine or a teaching from it.
I try not to pin any labels on myself, because if I did, I would be rejected by most or some in that camp anyway. I would be considered a Dispensational, moderate charismatic, pre-trib rapture believing synergist mishmash of things lol.

this is great ^^^^ it appears you have come to understand the tactics being used and they are TAUGHT these tactics because of the opposition to Calvinism which exists in an understanding of scripture

exactly why the personal attack is another favorite move...get the person on the defensive and put them off balance

just write ad hominem attack and move on. nothing they can do about that

and another is using words that even they don't always know the meaning of. copy paste is a great help in those situations

I agree I dislike more and more also the more I look into. just recently bought 2 books that expose the lies of this cult, including a debate held between a non-Calvinist and a Calvinist

we almost agree on belief...I'm just not pre-trib but that's ok.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

They contend that people can only choose wrong in their natural state. That idea would negate all the verses you are talking about.

Why would God tell us to choose if we cannot choose outside of our "nature"? It makes no sense whatsoever. I believe the idea we cannot choose outside of our nature is making humans more like animals, instead of created in God's image. As was said above, lions may not choose to eat grass due to their nature, but many humans choose to go vegan

you are right

Calvinism does not make sense and either twists or just ignores all biblical evidence to that effect

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What does the Bible say?
Is God omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent?
Yup.
Is God the author of evil?
Nope.

So i wouldn't blame some -ism

He would have to be the causitive force for all evil according to Calvinists

God is omnipotent...that means ALL KNOWING...does not mean forces all things or causes all things

God is omniscient...well good. you understand and agree that he KNOWS all things. I know quite a few things but that does not mean I caused them all to happen. same principal

God is omnibenevolent...exactly why He does not cause evil and is not creating people as firewood for hell

blame CalvinISM for the way it twists scripture and totally ignores the FACT that the Hebrew Bible uses 4 variations, which are used a total of 246 times and the NT uses 10 variations which are used 65 times, creating a total of 311 times in scripture that the concept of choice and selection is used

choose away

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Exactly. God uses ppl to fulfill His decreed will, yet He never makes anyone sin. The cross is the penultimate example of this. They freely, of the hatred in their hearts towards the Christ, freely and gladly had Him nailed to that cross.

you state that God never makes people sin while simultaneously stating that God uses people to do evil

again, you forget the doctrine of sin and the fact people act out of their sinful hears and CHOOSE to do evil

you do not believe in choice before regeneration and you actually put the cart before the horse and state a person is regenerated before they accept Christ

more nonsensical renderings of what the Bible actually states

regeneration occurs after accepting Christ...the Holy Spirit does not dwell in unbelievers so there is no possible way for regeneration to occur prior to salvation. actually the belief is beyond nonsensical. it is absurd and sounds more like what a person devoid of the Spirit of God might think

Jesus said He had to go back to heaven so the Father could send the Holy Spirit. Jesus does not physically dwell in believers but the Holy Spirit does AFTER acceptance of Christ

people who have never heard of Jesus can hardly act as they do because they hate Jesus...that is nonsensical

they are sinners as are we all before we accept Christ

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Question: "What does it mean that God is sovereign?"

Answer: God’s sovereignty is one of the most important principles in Christian theology, as well as one of its most hotly debated. Whether or not God is actually sovereign is usually not a topic of debate; all mainstream Christian sects agree that God is preeminent in power and authority. God’s sovereignty is a natural consequence of His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. What’s subject to disagreement is to what extent God applies His sovereignty—specifically, how much control He exerts over the wills of men. When we speak of the sovereignty of God, we mean He rules the universe, but then the debate begins over when and where His control is direct and when it is indirect.

God is described in the Bible as all-powerful and all-knowing (Psalm 147:5), outside of time (Exodus 3:14; Psalm 90:2), and responsible for the creation of everything (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1). These divine traits set the minimum boundary for God’s sovereign control in the universe, which is to say that nothing in the universe occurs without God’s permission. God has the power and knowledge to prevent anything He chooses to prevent, so anything that does happen must, at the very least, be “allowed” by God.

At the same time, the Bible describes God as offering humanity choices (Deuteronomy 30:15–19), holding them personally responsible for their sins (Exodus 20:5), and being unhappy with some of their actions (Numbers 25:3). The fact that sin exists at all proves that not all things that occur are the direct actions of God, who is holy. The reality of human volition (and human accountability) sets the maximum boundary for God’s sovereign control over the universe, which is to say there is a point at which God chooses to allow things that He does not directly cause.

Calvinists do not seem to understand that there is a difference between SOVEREIGNTY and FORCING it and thereby taking away all choice

as scripture clearly clearly indicates CHOICE, we must believe and accept the same. the results of sin are not an indication that God has lost His sovereignty. they illustrate the fact that CHOICE was given when Adam and Eve were created and that choice led to sin and that sin led to consequences but did not take away choice (green my words)

what we see Calvinists doing, is FORCING their understanding, actually the understanding of Calvin, upon scripture and causing it to say what it does not say

you cannot be a Calvinist and assert you believe scripture when what you believe does not line up with scripture

this should be evident to anyone who actually compares the teaching of Calvin with scripture itself

the Holy Spirit does not convince anyone of error but we find error throughout the ideology of Calvin and what he taught and forced on others while enjoying his reign as the pope of Geneva, referred to by many as a reign of terror

 

[TooFastTurtle]

this is great ^^^^ it appears you have come to understand the tactics being used and they are TAUGHT these tactics because of the opposition to Calvinism which exists in an understanding of scripture

exactly why the personal attack is another favorite move...get the person on the defensive and put them off balance

just write ad hominem attack and move on. nothing they can do about that

and another is using words that even they don't always know the meaning of. copy paste is a great help in those situations

I agree I dislike more and more also the more I look into. just recently bought 2 books that expose the lies of this cult, including a debate held between a non-Calvinist and a Calvinist

What debate is this? Is it available on YouTube? I would like to watch it. I need to look more into this, I have considered Calvinism to be a non-issue and of no relevancy but it has come to my attention that they are quenching the Spirit. Atleast this one gentleman here admitted to being a cessationist. We cannot get the right doctrine without discernment from the Holy Spirit. I believe walking in the Spirit is key to receiving the truth from the Bible.

we almost agree on belief...I'm just not pre-trib but that's ok.

Don't worry, I will explain it to you on the way up

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What debate is this? Is it available on YouTube? I would like to watch it. I need to look more into this, I have considered Calvinism to be a non-issue and of no relevancy but it has come to my attention that they are quenching the Spirit. Atleast this one gentleman here admitted to being a cessationist


Don't worry, I will explain it to you on the way up

that's funny ^^^^

the debate is actually in book form...got my copy off Amazon...was the cheapest

'Debating Calvinism' (5 points/2 views)

Dave Hunt vs James White

You might also like 'What Love is This?' (Calvins Misrepresentation of God) Dave Hunt (very thick volume though)

the Calvinists have no regard for Hunt at all but I have a number of his books and think he is pretty spot on about alot of things including how the occult has crept into the church

 

[7seasrekeyed]

What debate is this? Is it available on YouTube? I would like to watch it. I need to look more into this, I have considered Calvinism to be a non-issue and of no relevancy but it has come to my attention that they are quenching the Spirit. Atleast this one gentleman here admitted to being a cessationist. We cannot get the right doctrine without discernment from the Holy Spirit. I believe walking in the Spirit is key to receiving the truth from the Bible.

did you know there are even people who question whether or not he was actually saved as his renderings are so far off the truth?

if you refuse the Holy Spirit (and I sure hope no one thinks I automatically meaning speaking in tongues cause that would be shallow) then what is the alternative?

in the case of Calvin, it would seem it was his own intellect with some help from 'teaching demons' or doctrines of demons as the scripture mentions

of course if you have the humongous narcissistic personality of Calvin, that is of no matter as your words are obviously equal to scripture in your own mind

 

[7seasrekeyed]

oh hey~

I checked on youtube and they offer this vis a vis the debate..

 

[TooFastTurtle]

did you know there are even people who question whether or not he was actually saved as his renderings are so far off the truth?

if you refuse the Holy Spirit (and I sure hope no one thinks I automatically meaning speaking in tongues cause that would be shallow) then what is the alternative?

in the case of Calvin, it would seem it was his own intellect with some help from 'teaching demons' or doctrines of demons as the scripture mentions

of course if you have the humongous narcissistic personality of Calvin, that is of no matter as your words are obviously equal to scripture in your own mind

I must admit I am ignorant on the works of Calvin, but I do see in the doctrine of Calvinism itself, the use of highly intelligent terms and lots of philosophical influences, which lead me to believe your conclusion about him being motivated by his own intellect is the correct conclusion on the matter.

If someone in my congregation embraced Calvinism I would confront them about it and try to resolve the issue to prevent it from spreading, just as I would if someone claimed God does not know the future. I see it all the same, both extremes.

 

[posthuman]

He would have to be the causitive force for all evil according to Calvinists

Can you give even one single example of a person preaching that God is the author of evil?

Or is this that situation where someone says you are trying to earn your own salvation as a wage for your works, tho you don't actually believe that at all? Just a misrepresentation of a belief you don't hold?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I must admit I am ignorant on the works of Calvin, but I do see in the doctrine of Calvinism itself, the use of highly intelligent terms and lots of philosophical influences, which lead me to believe your conclusion about him being motivated by his own intellect is the correct conclusion on the matter.

If someone in my congregation embraced Calvinism I would confront them about it and try to resolve the issue to prevent it from spreading, just as I would if someone claimed God does not know the future. I see it all the same, both extremes.

actually Calvin was extremely intelligent as most will attest and IMO, that alone attracts an audience

however, as we know, the things of the Spirit are not understood by the intellect of mankind

however God satisfies the mind as well by His Spirit as we are led by Him IF we believe what scripture states and don't create doctrine to satisfy what our mind is willing to accept while stating the rest is no longer applicable

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Can you give even one single example of a person preaching that God is the author of evil?

Or is this that situation where someone says you are trying to earn your own salvation as a wage for your works, tho you don't actually believe that at all? Just a misrepresentation of a belief you don't hold?

I guess you were not following the prior conversation

you know, the last time you had a whole bunch of questions for me, I kindly answered them and you ghosted me

so I don't think I am in the mood for more of that...just go back and read the posts

I will tell you however, that stating God creates people to go to hell is a step in that direction

 

[TooFastTurtle]

actually Calvin was extremely intelligent as most will attest and IMO, that alone attracts an audience

however, as we know, the things of the Spirit are not understood by the intellect of mankind

however God satisfies the mind as well by His Spirit as we are led by Him IF we believe what scripture states and don't create doctrine to satisfy what our mind is willing to accept while stating the rest is no longer applicable

Colossians 2:8
Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

Philosophy is one of the main reasons people are deceived.
The Pharisees were well learned intellectuals as well, as are many of our liberal theologians today, but as you and I know the wisdom of this world is folly with God

 

[TooFastTurtle]

Can you give even one single example of a person preaching that God is the author of evil?

Or is this that situation where someone says you are trying to earn your own salvation as a wage for your works, tho you don't actually believe that at all? Just a misrepresentation of a belief you don't hold?

SackclothNAshes just quoted a confession that states God decrees everything.

If God decrees everything that makes God decree evil, which makes God the author of it.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

oh hey~

I checked on youtube and they offer this vis a vis the debate..

When James White sets the tone for it by saying these are rebels in a burning house that the King can choose to save, he doesn't stop to think about why are they rebels? Because they choose according to their nature he would say. But wait a minute, there is more: Who gave them that nature to be unable to search and find God? That would be God. So in the final analysis, its God's fault these guys are rebels and they cannot "undo" their nature.

We know what the Scriptures say:


Acts 17:26-27
And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

 

[John146]

God did not directly, by primary causes, cause the holocaust my friend. But He used ppl to fulfill it for Him, via secondary causes.

The holocaust was not God’s will but the will of Satan. Satan hates Israel, always has, always will.

 

[TooFastTurtle]

I believe this series covers the impossibility of regeneration before faith quite well, covers many of the counter arguments too

 

[posthuman]

I guess you were not following the prior conversation

you know, the last time you had a whole bunch of questions for me, I kindly answered them and you ghosted me

so I don't think I am in the mood for more of that...just go back and read the posts

I will tell you however, that stating God creates people to go to hell is a step in that direction

no, i haven't been following the conversation, i just jumped in when i saw something catch my eye in 'recent posts' - i do that a lot.
but the accusation that God must be the author of evil if He is sovereign isn't an uncommon one in the broader context of what this thread has been about for almost 90 pages.
in the context of that abstract 'conversation' that has been going on for almost 2,000 years now, regarding the mystery of salvation in the agency of man and the primacy of his Creator, i've heard that accusation a lot, for a lot of years, both in reading internet forums like this one and in listening to all kinds of sermons. i've never heard anyone with a 'pro-sovereignty' position say that God causes all evil. i've only heard people who have a 'pro-human will' position say it, and always in the context of accusing people who hold a view opposite to theirs of having evil doctrine.
i am still hoping to find an example of someone actually preaching this who believes it is true, that God is the author of all evil. i would be interested to hear such a sermon.
so you see, i really don't need to know pages of backstory when i hear someone levy the charge - i'm not unfamiliar with the concept and what i really am aiming for by replying to it is simply to ask if you know of any evidence of this, in the form of someone actually preaching what you say they believe?

also as far as i knew you had put me on ignore without exploring any of the questions i brought up. i didn't know you deigned to look at anything i wrote - making my ((thus far apparently)) somewhat hopeless quest for a 'calvinist' who actually teaches that God authors evil, all the more hopeless, because i didn't expect you to respond to it at all. what i really had pinned my hopes on by asking was that someone who hadn't decided to ignore me might see it and be able to help me out.

so thanks!
you decided to read my drivel

.. any idea around what page it was when you answered a question or two .. ?
and i have no idea what you mean by 'ghosting' -- that's what we call it when you are training under someone by following them around watching what they do, while they basically act like you're not there and just do their job. a.k.a. shadowing. that's not what you mean tho, is it?

 

[Sackcloth-N-Ashes]

The holocaust was not God’s will but the will of Satan. Satan hates Israel, always has, always will.

Then the Jews suffered for nothing. If God did not decree the holocaust, if it served no purpose in His decreed will...and He could have stopped this by the way...then God was cruel to just set there and let them get massacred. That’s exactly what deism teaches. What you are saying is God just sat back and watched Satan massacre a bunch of Jews for no apparent reason in God’s decreed will. He just set there and watched it happen. That’s deism my friend.

Also, Satan hates everyone. Including you and I.