Israel... or not?

[valiant]

No one here has disputed the Biblical fact that SOME among the northern ten tribed kingdom of ISRAEL left to go down and join with the kingdom of JUDAH at Jerusalem, simply because king of Jeroboam of ISRAEL had prevented them from going down to Jerusalem to worship, which was required by God at that time.

Yes, a good number. And even more had flocked there in Asa's time because it was a good place to be. And the same happened in Hezekiah's time. Thus the 'some' were a very large number, and largely consisted of the godly ones. They were believers. They were the true Israel.

But that did not affect the greatest majority of Israelites of the ten northern tribed kingdom of ISRAEL in the north, nor did it end its existence. Then ten northern tribes of Israel that STAYED in the north still... made up the majority of the peoples of ISRAEL.

yes, as in Jesus day, the rejected majority. They had cancelled themselves out of God's reckoning. The LARGE minority who were still worshiping YHWH were the true Israel.

In Josephus' days (100 A.D.), he said the ten tribes of Israel were still... scattered out of the holy land in his time, and that they were a great number of people, too many to be numbered (counted). Those were not the Jews.

Well Josephus was not a reliable historian. And its no good saying 'he said'. Give us the quote so we can assess it for ourselves. Your interpretation of Scripture is loose. I hate to think what you do to Josephus.

GOD said that the true Israel were the believers in the Messiah. The remainder He cut off (Rom 11.12-24)

 

[vic1980]

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Shalom

 

[Kaycie]

We are spiritual Israel. Israel used to be so both physically and spiritually, but now they are so only physically (which no longer counts). But they can be grafted back into the vine by getting baptized into Christ like everyone else. Why were they kicked out of their own vine? Because Gods Son came to them and they rejected Him, so God switched to adoption. (John 1:11-13)

 

[valiant]

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Shalom

True and it is quite clear that James was writing to the WHOLE church for he gives not a hint of how Jewish Christians should relate to Gentile Christians which he could otherwise hardly have avoided.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

True and it is quite clear that James was writing to the WHOLE church for he gives not a hint of how Jewish Christians should relate to Gentile Christians which he could otherwise hardly have avoided.

I think this claim and rationale are weak.

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

True and it is quite clear that James was writing to the WHOLE church for he gives not a hint of how Jewish Christians should relate to Gentile Christians which he could otherwise hardly have avoided.

I think this claim and rationale are weak.

you are entitled to your wrong opinion This was the way in which James thought about the church, as what they WERE, the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

you are entitled to your wrong opinion This was the way in which James thought about the church, as what they WERE, the twelve tribes of Israel.

That's simply an opinion. There's little, if anything, in scripture to support such a sweeping conclusion.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That's simply an opinion. There's little, if anything, in scripture to support such a sweeping conclusion.

There is nothing in Scripture that even comes close to suggesting that James' address to his brethren supports that the Church is the Twelve Tribes of Israel. If we take such an approach then we must equally say that the entire Church are Corinthians, Romans, or Hebrews.

If there is neither Jew nor Greek, then there is no classification for the Church except that they are the Church.

God bless.

 

[DP]

Israel used to be so both physically and spiritually, but now they are so only physically (which no longer counts). But they can be grafted back into the vine by getting baptized into Christ like everyone else. Why were they kicked out of their own vine? Because Gods Son came to them and they rejected Him, so God switched to adoption. (John 1:11-13)

Who taught you that, because my Bible does not teach any such thing.

When Apostle Paul was talking about how God had blinded part of Israel in Romans 11, that never meant all Israel as a people. There's 3 groups there in Rom.11 Paul is talking about...

1. the remnant of the flesh seed of Israel according to God's election of Grace
2. the Gentiles
3. the part of Israel which God blinded away from The Gospel so it could go to the Gentiles

Did you not know that the seed of Israel was to become "a company of nations" and a "multitude of nations"? (Gen.35:11 and Gen.48:19-20)

 

[JimmieD]

There is nothing in Scripture that even comes close to suggesting that James' address to his brethren supports that the Church is the Twelve Tribes of Israel. If we take such an approach then we must equally say that the entire Church are Corinthians, Romans, or Hebrews.

If there is neither Jew nor Greek, then there is no classification for the Church except that they are the Church.

God bless.

It seems clear to me that by calling 12 apostles, Jesus saw himself as reconstituting, recalling, and restoring Israel.

Luke22:28 “You are the ones who have remained with me in my trials. 22:29 Thus I grant to you a kingdom, just as my Father granted to me, 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The choice of 12 apostles wasn't arbitrary. It's clearly meant to bring to mind the restoration of Israel.

 

[DP]

Yes, a good number. And even more had flocked there in Asa's time because it was a good place to be. And the same happened in Hezekiah's time. Thus the 'some' were a very large number, and largely consisted of the godly ones. They were believers. They were the true Israel.

The house of Judah, or "kingdom of Judah", later fell into false worship like the northern ten-tribed "kingdom of Israel" did, and it only took the devil about a hundred years to cause them to do it. So I wouldn't be so wound up about the Judah kingdom, because they had direct evidence of Israel's rebellion against God into false worship, and God said the northern kingdom justified herself more because of it...

Jer 3:8-11
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.


9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.


10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto Me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.


11 And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.
KJV

Well Josephus was not a reliable historian. And its no good saying 'he said'. Give us the quote so we can assess it for ourselves.

"... the ten tribes are beyond the Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude and not to be estimated in numbers" (Antq. 11:133, Josephus)

GOD said that the true Israel were the believers in the Messiah. The remainder He cut off (Rom 11.12-24)

And the remnant according to the election of grace of Rom.11:1-5 is... about the believing seed of Israel that God Himself preserved.

 

[DP]

The matter of Israel is very simple really. But to understand it per God's Word one must give up a lot of the traditions they've been taught about it, and instead concentrate on what God's Word reveals.

Even though Apostle Paul said no difference between Jew or Gentile in God's Kingdom, just looking at Jesus' promise to His 12 Apostles to sit upon thrones judging over the 12 tribes of Israel reveals God's calling and election that no man can change.

But did you know the Gentiles will sit upon thrones judging over the Gentile nations in God's future Kingdom also? (Isaiah 60; Revelation 21:24-26).

Gentiles will also help inhabit the cities in the lands of Israel in God's future Kingdom (Isaiah 54:3).

Nations will still exist in God's future Kingdom:

Isa 19:23-25
23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.


24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:


25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, "Blessed be Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel Mine inheritance.
KJV

What are many brethren taught about that future time instead? Floating up on clouds, just about anything and everything except ... what God's Holy Writ teaches.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It seems clear to me that by calling 12 apostles, Jesus saw himself as reconstituting, recalling, and restoring Israel.

Luke22:28 “You are the ones who have remained with me in my trials. 22:29 Thus I grant to you a kingdom, just as my Father granted to me, 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The choice of 12 apostles wasn't arbitrary. It's clearly meant to bring to mind the restoration of Israel.

That's true. The 12 disciples (11 really) were the remnant of Israel with whom GOD made the new covenant. They were the restored Israel to which GOD added daily at Pentecost and beyond.

 

[P1LGR1M]

It seems clear to me that by calling 12 apostles, Jesus saw himself as reconstituting, recalling, and restoring Israel.

Luke22:28 “You are the ones who have remained with me in my trials. 22:29 Thus I grant to you a kingdom, just as my Father granted to me, 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The choice of 12 apostles wasn't arbitrary. It's clearly meant to bring to mind the restoration of Israel.

Nothing the Lord did was "arbitrary," and He said Himself...

[h=1]John 6:70

King James Version (KJV)[/h]
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


Two things to consider: first because we have disciples who are brothers we cannot impose a Twelve Tribe element to who was chosen.

Secondly, we see a parallel in regards to thee Twelve Tribes in Revelation in that Dan is not named, but Manassah.

That God will preßerve those that belongs to Him is clear in Revelation, and we see that He is the One Who can, if He so chooses, replace a Tribe or Apostle as He does in regards to Dan and Judas.

That does not conflict with the fact that out of all Tribes those who sought to worship God went to Judah and that even in Christ's day we see indications that people knew what Tribe they were of. The primary evidence being in the continued Levitical Services.


God bless.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Two things to consider: first because we have disciples who are brothers we cannot impose a Twelve Tribe element to who was chosen.

Secondly, we see a parallel in regards to thee Twelve Tribes in Revelation in that Dan is not named, but Manassah.

That God will preßerve those that belongs to Him is clear in Revelation, and we see that He is the One Who can, if He so chooses, replace a Tribe or Apostle as He does in regards to Dan and Judas.

That does not conflict with the fact that out of all Tribes those who sought to worship God went to Judah and that even in Christ's day we see indications that people knew what Tribe they were of. The primary evidence being in the continued Levitical Services.

This just proves that the twelve tribes have nothing to do with natural genealogy.

IMO anyone who thinks that there are 144,000 persons alive today who have pure genealogies going back to the 12 tribes of Israel is watching the Looney Tunes channel.

 

[P1LGR1M]

This just proves that the twelve tribes have nothing to do with natural genealogy.

IMO anyone who thinks that there are 144,000 persons alive today who have pure genealogies going back to the 12 tribes of Israel is watching the Looney Tunes channel.

So John is mistaken?

God bless.

 

[weakness]

This makes no sense.

Becomeing a child of God has been the same from the time Adam sinned, till today. It is faith in Gods provision and a knowledge you have failed to live up to Gods standard.

It has nothign to do with a nation God called out through the loins of Abraham.
or freeAll this sounds like to me is religious small talk, a reason to reject Gods promises to Israel. Because apart from this, there is no need to make up such stories. and call everyone spiritual Israel.

there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, but all one in Christ. There is neither male nor female. For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body. What? Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

 

[DP]

There is nothing in Scripture that even comes close to suggesting that James' address to his brethren supports that the Church is the Twelve Tribes of Israel. If we take such an approach then we must equally say that the entire Church are Corinthians, Romans, or Hebrews.

If there is neither Jew nor Greek, then there is no classification for the Church except that they are the Church.

God bless.

God chose Israel to be a kingdom of priests (Ex.19:6), and Apostle Peter repeats that same chosen concept about Christ's Church in 1 Pet.2:9. Thus God's Israel is... Christ's Church in final, irregardless that some among Israel refuse to believe.

In Galatians 3, Apostle Paul made it plain that the Promise by Faith is what Abraham was given and he believed, and thus all those who have believed as Abraham did have become the children of Abraham. That's about Christ's Church. The Promise by Faith was always first, prior to the giving of the law.

In Romans 11:1-5, Apostle Paul is specifically speaking of an elect remnant of the seed of Israel which God reserved, which is also about Christ's Church.

Rom 11:1-5
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away His people which He foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV

That means a believing remnant of the seed of Israel, Christ's Apostles representing those.

In Ephesians 2, Paul declared the foundation of Christ's Church being built also upon the OT prophets of Israel.

So was James literally speaking of BELIEVERS on Christ Jesus when he addressed that to the twelve tribes scattered abroad? YES! Most definitely!

The majority of all 12 tribes were scattered through the countries according to God's Word, with only a very small remnant of the "house of Judah" (2 tribes) having returned to Jerusalem after the 70 years Babylon captivity (Ezra 2).

 

[DP]

This just proves that the twelve tribes have nothing to do with natural genealogy.

IMO anyone who thinks that there are 144,000 persons alive today who have pure genealogies going back to the 12 tribes of Israel is watching the Looney Tunes channel.

If that were true, then how will God do what He said here?

Amos 9:8-9
8 Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD.
9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
KJV

Ezek 37:19-22
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
KJV



And just in case someone here wants to tell lies against this Scripture, here's the part that reveals emphatically that this Ezek.37 Scripture was NOT past history...

Ezek 37:24-28
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
KJV

 

[DP]

there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free, but all one in Christ. There is neither male nor female. For by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body. What? Know ye not that ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

The Ezekiel 48 Scripture about the final restoration of the 12 tribes back to the lands God promised their fathers does not detract from that. Many brethren just haven't studied enough OT Scripture detail about God's future Kingdom to know how that can be.