Israel... or not?

[eternally-gratefull]

or as quoted in scripture - Give none offense, neither to the (1) Jew, nor to the (2) Gentiles, nor to (3) the church of God:
1 Cor. 10:32 . . . . three groups of peoples.

Thank you sis.

I still think of the time before Jacob was born, When all we had were gentiles. Saved and unsaved And there was no such thing as Jews or Israel (saved or unsaved)

 

[TheAristocat]

I wanted to start something new on Kaylagrl’s question if we are Israel or not.

Joh 21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
Joh 21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
Joh 21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
Joh 21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.

The last week I was involved in altercations with people on CC and sometimes you leave this site with a numb feeling. I think this is what Peter felt. He was discouraged and felt like the last three years of his life were adding up to naught.

Peter and his 6 friends are on the boat catching fish with their nets on the left-hand side of the boat. They were tired of struggling all night when Jesus appeared and asked them to cast their nets to the right-hand side of the boat.

The Hebrew word for left is sem-ole a primitive word which can also be translated as dark (as enveloped). So when Peter cast the nets to the left hand side he was “in the dark” without Jesus. When he listened to God his net was full of fish.

We also know that there was 153 fish in the nets and that the phrase could be tied back to the verse in Hosea 1:10 sons of the living God.

Jesus said to his disciples that he will make them fishers of men. What does this have to do with being a Christian and being a part of Israel you might ask? Let the word of God explain the word of God.

Jer 16:14 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
Jer 16:15 But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers.
Jer 16:16 Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.

God said to Israel, that He will scatter them around the world if they don’t obey the covenant He made with them (Deuteronomy) . He tells us in Hosea that the children of Israel will be called sons of the living God (this was after they were scattered). In Jeremiah we are taught that the children of Israel will be caught by fishers and the hunters… Jesus called His disciples fishers of men.

Is this all one big coincidence or can we all agree today that we serve a non-changing God with a perfect Word and plan since day 1?

I believe I am part of Israel and there are more than enough clues in the Bible to indicate we are safe in saying so.

It doesn't matter to me whether we are part of Israel or not. What matters to me is whether or not we are part of God's People. And if we are, we already know what holy behavior God demands of his People. He has had a Holy People - Israel - all along. He called them to be holy, because they represented God on Earth. We have the same calling. Therefore we are called to be holy in the same way.

 

[TheAristocat]

The Hebrew word for left is sem-ole a primitive word which can also be translated as dark (as enveloped). So when Peter cast the nets to the left hand side he was “in the dark” without Jesus. When he listened to God his net was full of fish.

I think you're on to something, but I'm still undecided as to whether or not it can be translated as dark. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H8040&t=KJV It's hard for me to make heads or tails of the definitions that appear for that word here.

 

[valiant]

ISRAEL

Revelation 21:12 KJVS
[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


THE CHURCH

Revelation 21:14 KJVS
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

yes a combination of Old Testament saints and New Testaments in the New Jerusalem which IS the church of God, the bride of Christ. The very fact that they are the new Jerusalem confirms that they are also the true Israel

 

[valiant]

Well, i am a saved gentile. To which tribe of Israel you then belong?

you cannot be a saved Gentile. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. All are one in the true Israel.

Actually as an ex-Gentile who has become a proselyte of the true Israel you can choose which tribe you wish to belong to

 

[valiant]

On what do you base that statement?

God bless.

Knowledge of the history of the Israeli state, and admissions made by the Israelis themselves, plus of course the New Testament which clearly demonstrates that the remnant of Israel who would be saved were made up of Christian ex-Jews, and Christian ex-Gentiles.

 

[valiant]

I do not get this.

The tree is Christ Not Israel Israel was cut off. And we, as gentiles were grafted in..

OLIVE TREE is specifically the name of Israel. See Jeremiah 11.16.

LOL how could Israel be cut off?. Who then formed the basis of the olive tree into which ex-Gentiles were grafted in?. Do you think believing Israel were cut off as well? What odd ideas you have

 

[valiant]

I am an American I am also not Israel (physical or spiritual)

LOL if you are a true Christian God has not given you a choice.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

LOL if you are a true Christian God has not given you a choice.

He gave me the same choice he gave adam and noah.

He did not make me a jew, He made me a child of God.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Lol good luck! I sure didnt think I'd start such a firestorm! Though I disagree with you on this, I appreciate posts we've shared in other forums. I dont come here to make enemies. So I hope we can agree to disagree.And still be friendly on here.And that is for everyone.

I agree that is why I started a new thread Your thread became a bit heated

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OLIVE TREE is specifically the name of Israel. See Jeremiah 11.16.

How can Israel be cut off itself?

LOL how could Israel be cut off?. Who then formed the basis of the olive tree into which ex-Gentiles were grafted in?. Do you think believing Israel were cut off as well? What odd ideas you have

No. I believe those who rejected God were cut off the thing which gives lifeblood (christ)

I think Christ is the one we are grafted into. Not Israel.

You have be being grafted into an imperfect created nation. Who is known to be a nation of sin and aduterers. and not into YHWH himself.

 

[valiant]

so the time before Jacob was born means absolutely nothing? We have some 2000 years of history where Israel was not even a gleem in his fathers eye, and it means nothing?

I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just saying. It has not all been about isreal. So many things on this earth ccured before Israel was even thought of..

From Adam to Jacob there were a continual remnant of true believers, God's elect. Abraham was the forebear of God's elect who followed him. From the time of Jacob God's elect were all who truly submitted to YHWH. These, both descendants of Jacob (few) and descendants of his servants (who were NOT in the bloodline of Jacob), were the people who worshiped YHWH From that time on. They formed the Israel within Israel. They were the election of Israel. They were finally the ones who believed in the Messiah. At any stage any Gentile who wished to worship YHWH could become a part of Israel by believing. The Gentiles who submitted to the Messiah in the same way became a part of Israel.

Always there has been a larger number of nominal believers and a remnant of true believers. That is why Paul differentiates nominal Israel from true Israel.

It is quite simple really. Forget your fixation with one aspect of Israel and concentrate on God's elect. They are the true people of God whatever name they go under.

True Israel were regularly reduced to a minimal amount, those who truly believed and obeyed the covenant. The miracle of Pentecost was that that was turned around

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

153 is a most interesting number. I am aware of the 153/sons of GOD connection that you may be alluding to.

So Simon Peter got into the boat and hauled the net to the land, full of great fish—one hundred fifty-three—and although there were so many, the net was not torn. John 21:11​

However, the most compelling explanation I've seen so far for this number in John 21 is found in Ezekiel 47, (mainly because it is scriptural and fits the context of the time so well) which speaks of the apostles and workers of the gospel gathering all Israel through the work of the holy spirit.

Then said he unto me, These waters issue out [of the temple] toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the [Dead] sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh. And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many. Ezekiel 47:8-10​

The word En in Engedi and Eneglaim means spring, so the latter means the spring of Eglaim. Using gematria, in Hebrew the word Eglaim equals 153, and Gedi equals 17. I won't get into details, but 153 is a remarkable number intricately associated with the number 17 (9 x 17 = 153, for starts).

Another interesting fact is that Jesus only ministered to 153 people one on one in the Bible

 

[crossnote]

ISRAEL

Revelation 21:12 KJVS
[12] And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:


THE CHURCH

Revelation 21:14 KJVS
[14] And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

But the number 12 always represents Israel.

Apparently there is a distinction made in Revelation between the Twelve Tribes of Israel and the Twelve Apostles, though what they have in common is that they both are part of the New Jerusalem.
I suppose the type-a-holics can really go to town on this one but I only bring it up to show that a distinction between Israel and the Church is made

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Well, i am a saved gentile. To which tribe of Israel you then belong?

Well good for you

 

[P1LGR1M]

Knowledge of the history of the Israeli state, and admissions made by the Israelis themselves, plus of course the New Testament which clearly demonstrates that the remnant of Israel who would be saved were made up of Christian ex-Jews, and Christian ex-Gentiles.

So you exclude the fact that there will be Jews in Israel in the Tribulation as clearly stated in both Old and New Testament Prophecy?

Do you think that those in Israel calling themselves Jews are not really Jews?

That's outstanding. Now, if you can just convince the enemies of the Jews that they are not in fact Jews then you should be able to bring about peace in Israel. Get busy. People are dying when there is no need for it if there are not in fact any Jews in Israel.



You said...

Originally Posted by valiant

Israelis are not Israel either. They are a conglomeration of persecuted peoples who found refuge there.

The usual reason people make statements like this is due to mythologies surrounding Israel and her fate after the First Century. The "Ten Lost Tribes Mythology" tries to teach that "True Israel" is the white European nations created and that the "Jews" are not the people commonly accepted by the rest of the world as Jews.

This kind of mythology is derived by first ignoring Scripture and worse...adding to it.

Israel will always be Israel, whether they be of the Elect or no. In the Tribulation, God will not be confused about who is a Jew or not, so either He will call out for Himself from those people currently in the land today, or, we will have to see those people removed from the land and the "True Israel" brought back in.

Me, I am pretty confident that the Jews in Israel are actually Jews, because if they are not, then we have to wonder...

...what's all the fuss about?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by wolfwint

Well, i am a saved gentile. To which tribe of Israel you then belong?

Well good for you

It's a valid question: which Tribe are you a member of?


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Another interesting fact is that Jesus only ministered to 153 people one on one in the Bible

Kind of hard to be dogmatic about that:


John 20:30

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]30 [/SUP]And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:





God bless.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

From Adam to Jacob there were a continual remnant of true believers, God's elect. Abraham was the forebear of God's elect who followed him. From the time of Jacob God's elect were all who truly submitted to YHWH. These, both descendants of Jacob (few) and descendants of his servants (who were NOT in the bloodline of Jacob), were the people who worshiped YHWH From that time on. They formed the Israel within Israel. They were the election of Israel. They were finally the ones who believed in the Messiah. At any stage any Gentile who wished to worship YHWH could become a part of Israel by believing. The Gentiles who submitted to the Messiah in the same way became a part of Israel.

Always there has been a larger number of nominal believers and a remnant of true believers. That is why Paul differentiates nominal Israel from true Israel.

It is quite simple really. Forget your fixation with one aspect of Israel and concentrate on God's elect. They are the true people of God whatever name they go under.

True Israel were regularly reduced to a minimal amount, those who truly believed and obeyed the covenant. The miracle of Pentecost was that that was turned around

This makes no sense.

Becomeing a child of God has been the same from the time Adam sinned, till today. It is faith in Gods provision and a knowledge you have failed to live up to Gods standard.

It has nothign to do with a nation God called out through the loins of Abraham.

All this sounds like to me is religious small talk, a reason to reject Gods promises to Israel. Because apart from this, there is no need to make up such stories. and call everyone spiritual Israel.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This makes no sense.

Becomeing a child of God has been the same from the time Adam sinned, till today. It is faith in Gods provision and a knowledge you have failed to live up to Gods standard.

It has nothign to do with a nation God called out through the loins of Abraham.

All this sounds like to me is religious small talk, a reason to reject Gods promises to Israel. Because apart from this, there is no need to make up such stories. and call everyone spiritual Israel.

It had everything to with Israel. There would be no salvation without the role the nation of Israel played.