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phil36

phil36

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#161
Feb 12, 2009
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#161
Rogue said:
Yes, including those who are in Christ. Being in Christ does not suddenly make us deserving of more than death, it just makes us redeemed from it.



We are.
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if you are in Christ you are free from death you are born into eternal life, death no longer holds you.

Ok Now we are getting somewhere..

We deserve death and we are to blame. I am glad you agree. I whole heartedly agree with that and so wil all Calvinists. and all other Christians I would hope to think.


Now concerning those the 'Father has given the son' (Jesus' own words. they are not saved by anything other than God's good grace not because they are more deserving but because of God's grace. He has redeemd them.

So you see, God does not predestine people to hell, you have admitted that your self and I am glad to hear it. It is only by the GRACE OF GOD THAT ANY ARE SAVED FROM DEATH AT ALL.

NO one deserves this grace... no not one!!!!


Phil
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#162
Feb 16, 2010
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#162
phil36 said:
God has atoned for the sins of all the world, however the problem arise, and heres the problem men are salves to their sin, the hate the light, and are sons of their Father the devil. no one is good and all deny God in their heart.

so, here is the problem with your analogy. The man does not realise he has a disease. for he has been blinded by the darkness. he has suppressed the truth in his heart!
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Alright then, Quest is one of a multitude of men who are condemned to death for this disease. He has no idea that he is infecting other people. He is blind to this. The solution then, is that the leader of the country shall randomly force some of these blind men to drink the medicine, while others he will randomly refuse to offer the medicine to, and he will allow them to die.

I would have to say I wouldn't think that leader to be very nice, but let's take this a step further. Let's say that this leader - many years before these sick men were born - allowed a poison to be placed in some apples and in some apples there would not be poison. These poisoned apples would cause the children to be born with this contagious disease.

Now, the people were given a warning about the apples, that they should not eat them. But a wise and wicked witch appeared to the people - with the full blessing of the leader - and the witch, with smooth words, convinced the women that the leader was lying and that the apples would be good for them to eat. Some of the people ate the apples, while others did not. Those who ate the bad apples gave birth to the children with the contagious disease, and those who did not eat the bad apples had healthy children.

Now, if the leader of the country was evil for randomly choosing which people should receive the cure and which should not, was he not even more vile for placing the diseased apples out in the first place? What a strange man this leader is! First he places poison apples out where people can eat them, then he allows a witch to come and tempt the people to eat the apples, and then when his people eat these apples, he randomly chooses which of their sick children should live and die.

Quest
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#163
Feb 12, 2009
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#163
QuestionTime said:
Alright then, Quest is one of a multitude of men who are condemned to death for this disease. He has no idea that he is infecting other people. He is blind to this. The solution then, is that the leader of the country shall randomly force some of these blind men to drink the medicine, while others he will randomly refuse to offer the medicine to, and he will allow them to die.

I would have to say I wouldn't think that leader to be very nice, but let's take this a step further. Let's say that this leader - many years before these sick men were born - allowed a poison to be placed in some apples and in some apples there would not be poison. These poisoned apples would cause the children to be born with this contagious disease.

Now, the people were given a warning about the apples, that they should not eat them. But a wise and wicked witch appeared to the people - with the full blessing of the leader - and the witch, with smooth words, convinced the women that the leader was lying and that the apples would be good for them to eat. Some of the people ate the apples, while others did not. Those who ate the bad apples gave birth to the children with the contagious disease, and those who did not eat the bad apples had healthy children.

Now, if the leader of the country was evil for randomly choosing which people should receive the cure and which should not, was he not even more vile for placing the diseased apples out in the first place? What a strange man this leader is! First he places poison apples out where people can eat them, then he allows a witch to come and tempt the people to eat the apples, and then when his people eat these apples, he randomly chooses which of their sick children should live and die.

Quest
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By your anology you are saying God is evil, for letting Adam and Eve sin? and you are also claiming that some are not sinful from Adam?

If it wasn't for God's grace none of us would be here typing. it is so simple, we all deserve death 'FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT',

I just find it Glorious that God chooses to save any. the problem is most people think they are somewhat special and God owes them, and if he doesn't then he isn't very nice.. and that is exactly what you have just said QT.

In Love

Phil
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#164
#164
Did Adam have a choice not to sin?
 
phil36

phil36

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#165
Feb 12, 2009
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#165
Adam was before the Fall!!! diferent situation altogether..
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#166
#166
Did Adam have a choice not to sin though?
 
M

mpaper345

Banned
#167
Feb 9, 2010
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#167
God gave the angels a choice and some rebelled.

God made man with a choice.That is why God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden because God gave man a choice.God said they could eat any tree of the garden but that one tree.That is the purpose of the tree of knowledge in the garden because God gave man a choice and Adama and Eve decided to do their own thing and be disobedient to God.

Without a choice it is not true love.If God created man with no choice but to love God then it would not be true love.God gave man a choice because God wants people to choose to love Him and obey Him for then it is true love.

God protected the tree of life after they ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because if they would of eaten from the tree of life after being in that sinful condition they would of stayed that way forever.

Matt
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#169
#169
phil36 said:
I think mpaper answered that nicely :)

The Fall changed everything.

Phil
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So we were predestined before the foundation of the world, but Adam had a true choice to sin or not to sin? I am not understanding, sorry.
 
phil36

phil36

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#170
Feb 12, 2009
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#170
Do you think God knew that the fall would happen? Or does he not know everything?
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#171
#171
phil36 said:
Do you think God knew that the fall would happen? Or does he not know everything?
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Ah, but that is foreknowledge Phil, I fully believe and accept foreknowledge.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#172
Feb 12, 2009
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#172
Shwagga said:
Ah, but that is foreknowledge Phil, I fully believe and accept foreknowledge.
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there you are then,, he foreknew before the foundations of the world...quite simple really shwagga.

Phil
 
QuestionTime

QuestionTime

Senior Member
#173
Feb 16, 2010
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#173
Wow, that was the best argument I could come up with!

I fear Phil is beyond hope of conversion. Well, I shouldn't give up hope... Even Anakin Skywalker turned back to the light.

Quest
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#174
Feb 12, 2009
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#174
QuestionTime said:
Wow, that was the best argument I could come up with!

I fear Phil is beyond hope of conversion. Well, I shouldn't give up hope... Even Anakin Skywalker turned back to the light.

Quest
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What do you mean by your sarcastic remark?
 
P

Pete_Martinez

Banned
#175
Oct 1, 2009
296
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#175
Shwagga said:
Did Adam have a choice not to sin?
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Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ was not plan B. It hurts to think of a God with that much knowledge and that much power. But that's God.
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#176
#176
Pete_Martinez said:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ was not plan B. It hurts to think of a God with that much knowledge and that much power. But that's God.
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So you agree God predestined Adam to sin, thereby making God the author of sin? If not, please clarify what you are trying to say.
 
phil36

phil36

Senior Member
#177
Feb 12, 2009
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#177
Shwagga said:
Ah, but that is foreknowledge Phil, I fully believe and accept foreknowledge.
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"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son"


28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Phil
 
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Shwagga

Guest
#178
#178
phil36 said:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son"


28And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. 29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Phil
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Yes Phil, the key word here is foreknowledge (foreknowing), so by God's foreknowledge of who would be in Him, He predestined those whom He foreknew to be confronted into the image of His Son.

Edit: However, foreknowledge is not the reformed view which I thought you held to.
 
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Pete_Martinez

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#179
Oct 1, 2009
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#179
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
Isa 45:6 that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

1Ki 22:15 And when he had come to the king, the king said to him, "Micaiah, shall we go to Ramoth-gilead to battle, or shall we refrain?" And he answered him, "Go up and triumph; the LORD will give it into the hand of the king."
1Ki 22:16 But the king said to him, "How many times shall I make you swear that you speak to me nothing but the truth in the name of the LORD?"
1Ki 22:17 And he said, "I saw all Israel scattered on the mountains, as sheep that have no shepherd. And the LORD said, 'These have no master; let each return to his home in peace.'"
1Ki 22:18 And the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "Did I not tell you that he would not prophesy good concerning me, but evil?"
1Ki 22:19 And Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left;
1Ki 22:20 and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another.
1Ki 22:21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.'
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.'
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."
1Ki 22:24 Then Zedekiah the son of Chenaanah came near and struck Micaiah on the cheek and said, "How did the Spirit of the LORD go from me to speak to you?"
1Ki 22:25 And Micaiah said, "Behold, you shall see on that day when you go into an inner chamber to hide yourself."
1Ki 22:26 And the king of Israel said, "Seize Micaiah, and take him back to Amon the governor of the city and to Joash the king's son,
1Ki 22:27 and say, 'Thus says the king, "Put this fellow in prison and feed him meager rations of bread and water, until I come in peace."'"
1Ki 22:28 And Micaiah said, "If you return in peace, the LORD has not spoken by me." And he said, "Hear, all you peoples!"

And they did not return in peace, what Micaiah said really did happen.
 
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