"It is finished." What is the "it?"

[kennethcadwell]

It is my belief that if you do not separate the timely salvation scriptures from the eternal salvation scriptures, you will always have contradicting scriptures. Eternal salvation is totally by God's grace, without the help of man, and timely salvations require obedience to God's commandments, which is a salvation (deliverance) by works.

Because there is no such thing as the bible never says such a thing anywhere in it.
Jude in his epistle even says our common salvation, not different timely salvation's, and in that epistle he even shows the different things that can hinder a person from receiving that salvation. Most of it is on false teachers as the Galatians fell victim to, but some are other examples of those like those saved out of Egypt that went back to idol worship. It says they were destroyed and blotted out of the Book of Life.
I don't have scriptures contradicting at all by how the Holy Spirit has lead me in studies and understanding, for they line up just fine as they should. You either walk properly in the faith and have eternal life, or you don't and will face the lake of fire......It is one or the other, as there is not more than one way to salvation....

This is one of those lies to where they change scriptures about spiritual death to physical death. Just like some do with Matthew 10:22, but the failure in that is that if the being saved here is from physical death then it would make what happened to all the Apostles except John a lie. For all were persecuted and put to death for preaching His word, so the enduring to the end to be saved is about enduring the things they will face in life without falling back to unbelief.

 

[forsha]

Yeah Actually I do

κόσμος, -ου, ὁ;
1. in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order.


2. as in Grk. writ. fr. Hom, down, ornament, decoration, adornment: ἐνδύσεως ἱματίων,


3. the world, i.e. the universe (quem κόσμον Graeci nomine ornamenti appellarunt, eum nos a perfecta absolutaque elegantia mundum, Plin. h. n. 2, 3; in which sense Pythagoras is said to have been the first to use the word, Plut. de plac. philos. 2, 1, 1 p. 886 c.; but acc. to other accounts he used it of the heavens, Diog. L. 8, 48, of which it is used several times also by other Grk. writ. [see Menag. on Diog. Laërt. I. c.; Bentley, Epp. of Phalar. vol. i. 391 (Lond. 1836); M. Anton. 4, 27 and Gataker’s notes; cf. L. and S. s. v. IV.]):


4. the circle of the earth, the earth, (very rarely so in Grk. writ, until after the age of the ptolemies; so in Boeckh, corp. inscrr. i. pp. 413 and 643, nos. 334 and 1306


5. the inhabitants of the world: θέατρον ἐγενήθημεν τῷ κόσμῳ καὶ ἀγγέλοις κ. ἀνθρώποις,


6. the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ [cf. W. 26]:


7. worldly affairs; the aggregate of things earthly; the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments, riches, advantages, pleasures, etc., which, although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ: Gal. 6:14; 1 Jn. 2:16 sq.; 3:17; εἶναι ἐκ τοῦ κ., to be

8. any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort [cf. Eng. “a world of curses” (Shakspere), etc.]: ὁ κόσμος τῆς ἀδικίας, the sum of all iniquities,


[SUP][SUP][1][/SUP][/SUP] Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: being Grimm’s Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (p. ii). New York: Harper & Brothers.

so before you start slaming on someone, you should at least assume they have the ability to test what your saying. I have access to many greek resources, including thayer. Logos Bible Software is a great resource. you should try it.

As for John 6.

Since your too lazy to go back and read. As I said. Jesus said in John 6 to seek the food which endures to eternal life. The whoever sees and believes in him has eternal life. Will live forever, never die, never hunger or thirst. and be risen on the last day. But he also said we must not only seek for it. But actually eat (greek is chew or null, which is more than just take a nibble or taste) in order to have faith and believe on these things.

John 6 supports eternal security and faith in Christ. Not that jesus died for a select few. If he did. We would not have to seek for the food which endures forever.

I am 80 years old, but I am far from lazy as your comment says. You said that you have used Thayer's as a reference, but I failed to see you post anything about the scriptures where the word "world" pertained to believers only and not all mankind.

 

[forsha]

Nah,

Jesus said it is the work of God that our faith can even occure.

In order for me to preach works I would have to preach I must do somethign I can take credit for.

Show me someone who can boast of saving themselves when they were totally hopless, and the only way they could be saved was to trust someone else to save them.

The idea that man can boast of trusting someone else completely to save them, because they are in a desperate situation and can do nothing to save themselves is quite silly (to say it lightly, I would rather say another word but will try to keep it clean and non offensive)

It sounds to me like the natural man can do nothing to save himself eternally, 1 Cor 2:14. Believing does not save you eternally, it is a result of already being born of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Are you sure about that?

did paul lie?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

A wage is something earned. A penalty is a wage, or the end result

 

[kennethcadwell]

Dude, It does not matter if it is works which come from the spirit, or works which do not come from the spirit

If these works are required to EARN salvation, to KEEP salvation, and to NOT LOSE salvation. You teach works.

why? Because salvation is based on these works that YOU DO.

That's what you teach. end of story.

What do you not get by the branch that does not produce fruit is gathered and burned ???


[h=1]Matthew 7:15-21[/h]15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.




[h=1]John 15:1-7[/h]15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It sounds to me like the natural man can do nothing to save himself eternally, 1 Cor 2:14. Believing does not save you eternally, it is a result of already being born of the Spirit, Gal 5:22.

no. This can not be true.

we can not be born of the spirit if we are still dead in sin. the wage of sin is death, the gift of God is eternal life. If I am still suffering the wage, then I am still dead.

Justification MUST precede regeneration.

as Paul said in titus. the washing must come first. then the regeneration (new birth)

again, you have it backwards

The HS convicts the whole world of sin righteousness and judgment, that is why there will be no excuse. The HS thus allows the world to see the truth, thus everyone has the ability to be saved. But they must trust God and God alone.

Faith in christ alone is not a work. It is a trust in Gods work. He gets the credit

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am 80 years old, but I am far from lazy as your comment says. You said that you have used Thayer's as a reference, but I failed to see you post anything about the scriptures where the word "world" pertained to believers only and not all mankind.

maybe you have just been listening to your calvanistic view for so long you can;t see anything else?

According to thayer. the word cosmos means the whole earth, the inhabitants of the earth, or satans domain.

all three interpretaions would support that Jesus paid for all mankind, not just a select few.

A person who goes to hell will not go to hell because of sin, they go to hell because they commited the unpardonable sin. The one jesus did not die for.

Read reveations. they are tried according to their works. Not sin. And their works were found unworthy to make up for their own sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you not get by the branch that does not produce fruit is gathered and burned ???


Matthew 7:15-21

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.




John 15:1-7

15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vine dresser. 2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

My God ken do you never listen to what anyone says?

God children WILL PRODUCE FRUIT?

Do you think God is going to save someone, give them the holy spirit, who will teach them ALL things concerning God and Christ, Power them to walk in love and chasten them when they step aside. and that person will NOT produce fruit?

Your speaking against a licentious gospel there. Not against me. I teach ALL Gods children will produce fruit. Thus ALL men who have faith in God are saved, PROVED by the fact they produce fruit.

They will continue to produce fruit because they are born of God, born of the spirit, And have the spirit to teach and chasten them.

That does not support your gospel of works so get over it.

 

[Elin]

did paul lie?

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The contrast is between what we have in Adam and what we have in Christ.

In Adam, we have been born in spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life).
In Christ, we have been reborn into eternal life (Holy Spirit life).

Those who remain in the spiritual death into which they were born will be subject to the wrath of God,
which is eternal death.

spiritual death - natural state of man, from which he can be redeemed

eternal life - redemption from spiritual death

eternal death - final state of man from which he cannot be redeemed

A wage is something earned. A penalty is a wage, or the end result

A penalty is not a wage.

However, both are the consequence of action.

 

[dcontroversal]

maybe you have just been listening to your calvanistic view for so long you can;t see anything else?

According to thayer. the word cosmos means the whole earth, the inhabitants of the earth, or satans domain.

all three interpretaions would support that Jesus paid for all mankind, not just a select few.

A person who goes to hell will not go to hell because of sin, they go to hell because they commited the unpardonable sin. The one jesus did not die for.

Read reveations. they are tried according to their works. Not sin. And their works were found unworthy to make up for their own sin.

Amen and the truth is quite simple...men will end up in hell because they reject the saving faith of Jesus Christ.......Christ saves to the uttermost those who will exercise saving faith.....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe....
It is foolish to many that one can just believe and be saved for sure.......
Believe on the Son=eternal life

 

[forsha]

the only way I can do this is to explain all of romans 9. Why do you stick to one verse?

what is the OT context of what Paul quoted? for only then can we get context.



Is 29: [SUP]14 [/SUP]Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work Among this people, A marvelous work and a wonder; For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.” [SUP]15 [/SUP]Woe to those who seek deep to hide their counsel far from the Lord, And their works are in the dark; They say, “Who sees us?” and, “Who knows us?” [SUP]16 [/SUP]Surely you have things turned around! Shall the potter be esteemed as the clay; For shall the thing made say of him who made it, “He did not make me”? Or shall the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Jer 18: 3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [SUP]6 [/SUP]“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! [SUP]7 [/SUP]The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, [SUP]8 [/SUP]if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. [SUP]9 [/SUP]And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, [SUP]10 [/SUP]if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

Niether one of them supports Calvins interpretation of romans 9.

For One says no one can question God on how he does something.

the other says the clay (of its own free will) was destroyed in his hand, so he destroyed it and made a new vessel.

Free will is not destroyed in the OT or Paul.

Nice try though.

God is the same God whether in the old testament or the new. In Is an Jer God is referred to as the potter and has power over the clay, same as in Romans 9. Dan 4:35, God has his way with the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand. God did not tolerate Jonah's free will in running away from him when he told Jonah to go preach to Nineveh

 

[kennethcadwell]

My God ken do you never listen to what anyone says?

God children WILL PRODUCE FRUIT?

Do you think God is going to save someone, give them the holy spirit, who will teach them ALL things concerning God and Christ, Power them to walk in love and chasten them when they step aside. and that person will NOT produce fruit?

Your speaking against a licentious gospel there. Not against me. I teach ALL Gods children will produce fruit. Thus ALL men who have faith in God are saved, PROVED by the fact they produce fruit.

They will continue to produce fruit because they are born of God, born of the spirit, And have the spirit to teach and chasten them.

That does not support your gospel of works so get over it.

You just said in a previous post that fruit of the Spirit does not matter for salvation.
These passages I just gave from the Lord show what I have said all along that works of the Spirit go hand and hand with faith in Christ unto salvation. The reason is because the fruits prove ones faith to be true, and those passages say if one does not produce fruit they are cast away into the lake of fire. Because the fruit does not come from self but from the Holy Spirit, so no Holy Spirit producing fruits/works then Christ does not abide in that person, therefore they do not have salvation/eternal life.

 

[forsha]

Not true.

On can not be born of the spirit while still in sin, They are spiritually dead because of sin, God can not enter a soul who is tainted in sin, that sin must be washed first.

Justification must occur before the spirit can enter. We are born BECAUSE we are justified. We are justified by faith.

You have the order backwards. You have God entering a soul, and making them alive in Christ before sin is washed away, this is impossible.

God and sin can not relate.

Then, how do you explain Eph 2:4-5, But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath he quickened us together with Christ.

 

[forsha]

Yeah they can.

romans 1. No man has an excuse. If a natural man can not know his own fate (even though paul said they already know it) and figure out the way to be saved. then everyone not saved has an excuse.

And paul lied in romans 1

I understand your FEAR of taking credit for saving yourself. But do not taint the unfailing love of God for his creation out of this fear.

Jesus did the work. Trust him, He gets the credit, not you, and his love is still in tact, and the universe is in awe of him.

Before a person can understand the grace of God, they have to understand the depravity of man. A lot of students of the bible attach scriptures that tell how bad man is to being those that have not the Spirit dwelling within them, but most of the time it is describing how depraved by nature the born again person is. Just because we have been born again of the Spirit does not mean that we leave our fleshly nature behind. That's why Paul tells us that we have a warfare going on inside of us, the flesh against the Sprit.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The contrast is between what we have in Adam and what we have in Christ.

In Adam, we have been born in spiritual death (no Holy Spirit life).
In Christ, we have been reborn into eternal life (Holy Spirit life).

Those who remain in the spiritual death into which they were born will be subject to the wrath of God,
which is eternal death.

spiritual death - natural state of man, from which he can be redeemed

eternal life - redemption from spiritual death

eternal death - final state of man from which he cannot be redeemed

Spiritual death is nothing more than a term which means separated from God.

We are born separated from God due to being in Adam.

In Christ, We who come to faith are made alive (relationship is restored)

Whoever dies physically, having never been born again will remain spiritually dead for all eternity

A penalty is not a wage.

However, both are the consequence of action.

A penalty is most certainly a wage

A person who goes to jail for murder, has earned the wage of his action. That wage was his sentence imposed from his action.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God is the same God whether in the old testament or the new. In Is an Jer God is referred to as the potter and has power over the clay, same as in Romans 9. Dan 4:35, God has his way with the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth and none can stay his hand.

Your right, God tried to mold Isreal as the OT passage says, But the vessel he was making (israel) became Marred, So God destroyed the vessel. and will start to remake the vessel.

This is a promise of the restoration of Israel. Their free will sin is what caused them to be detroyed, But God promise he will remake the vessel.

This proves free will, Not the calvanist view of romans 9;

God did not tolerate Jonah's free will in running away from him when he told Jonah to go preach to Nineveh

Your right, But God did not force him to go against his free will. He chastened him, which caused Jonah to repent and go do what God wanted.

Again, this proves free will. not the calvanist view of romans 9.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You just said in a previous post that fruit of the Spirit does not matter for salvation.

No I did not.

I said, and have always said, anyone who is born of God WILL produce the fruit of the spirit. You prove you are selectively reading, Because you continue to make false claims.

These passages I just gave from the Lord show what I have said all along that works of the Spirit go hand and hand with faith in Christ unto salvation. The reason is because the fruits prove ones faith to be true, and those passages say if one does not produce fruit they are cast away into the lake of fire. Because the fruit does not come from self but from the Holy Spirit, so no Holy Spirit producing fruits/works then Christ does not abide in that person, therefore they do not have salvation/eternal life.

You just taught eternal security, and what I have been teaching.

Those saved WILL produce fruit.

Those who are fakes. and not true believers (belief only) will not go to heaven, because they have no works (never produce fruit)

Again, Your so convinced in your mind no one can believe this, you refuse to listen to what they say.

Either way, What you just said does not support your view that salvation can be lost.

 

[forsha]

And how does one get given to the Lord by God?
By hearing the word of God and being renewed in the heart by faith of what they heard, and then turn and act on that faith.

They were predetermined by God that Jesus will adopt them as his children,(Eph 1. John 10:27, My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. Those that are born of the Spirit are God's sheep and they are already his sheep before they can hear him. The natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 will not and, indeed, can not hear and discern spiritual things until they have been born again. God quickens the natural man while he is still dead in sins.(Eph 2:5.

 

[forsha]

Because there is no such thing as the bible never says such a thing anywhere in it.
Jude in his epistle even says our common salvation, not different timely salvation's, and in that epistle he even shows the different things that can hinder a person from receiving that salvation. Most of it is on false teachers as the Galatians fell victim to, but some are other examples of those like those saved out of Egypt that went back to idol worship. It says they were destroyed and blotted out of the Book of Life.
I don't have scriptures contradicting at all by how the Holy Spirit has lead me in studies and understanding, for they line up just fine as they should. You either walk properly in the faith and have eternal life, or you don't and will face the lake of fire......It is one or the other, as there is not more than one way to salvation....

This is one of those lies to where they change scriptures about spiritual death to physical death. Just like some do with Matthew 10:22, but the failure in that is that if the being saved here is from physical death then it would make what happened to all the Apostles except John a lie. For all were persecuted and put to death for preaching His word, so the enduring to the end to be saved is about enduring the things they will face in life without falling back to unbelief.

All of those that Christ died for will live with him in heaven without the loss of even one, John 6:39. Those that are secured for eternal heaven by his work on the cross, when they sin, they do not lose their eternal salvation, because that is secured by Christ on the cross. When they repent for a sin that they have done and God forgives them, that is a timely salvation, a deliverance from that sin.

 

[3Scoreand10]

Yes you have to keep your faith in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
The bible clearly says those that fall away from believing in Him will not receive eternal life unless they are brought back to Him in repentance.....

So once again the false accusations that we have to do works to keep salvation is not what I teach, as I said before works/fruits of the Spirit go hand and hand with salvation. But if one draws back into unbelief as the bible says they will not receive eternal life........

Ken you are the one who keeps saying that YOU have to KEEP DOING.
Any way you at it , doing is WORKS, is WORKS, is WORKS.
And you keep saying it is YOU, YOU, YOU.
Its not about YOU and your DOING, It about Jesus and what He has done.
If you are truly putting you hope for eternal life in what YOU ARE DOING, you are lost.