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L
You misquoted the Bible, this was your post:-
I could just as easily do this:-
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Or we could do this
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I could just as easily do this:-
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Or we could do this
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
(8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
L
I totally agree with you that faith is the gift of God rather than salvation
Romans 12:3 KJV
(3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Romans 12:3 KJV
(3) For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Oh dear, that's put the cat among the pigeons, that is not what I was meaning at all. The gift of God is salvation.
People's faith varies from the unbelievers who have no faith, to those of little faith, through to those who have much faith and God deals with us according to the measure of our faith.
If our faith was God given it would be full and overflowing.
Paul is talking about God's GRACE which is given to each and every one of us.
People's faith varies from the unbelievers who have no faith, to those of little faith, through to those who have much faith and God deals with us according to the measure of our faith.
If our faith was God given it would be full and overflowing.
Paul is talking about God's GRACE which is given to each and every one of us.
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H
What is commandment keeping?
It's perfect obedience, James 2:10. That's what the law requires.
Obviously there are no commandment keepers amongst us in the physical.
So why mix commandment keeping in with the gospel of grace?
We cannot mix grace with works of thelaw
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
So, I do not hate the law.
I just acknowledge that we are "not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ", Gal 2:16.
Hence I do not mix grace with works of the law. This is to be lukewarm, Rev 3:16.
Jesus did, however, keep the law . And Jesus is our inward man who delights after the law, Rom 7:22.
And it's Christ in us that God sees, Gal 2:20, Col 3:3.
And in believing in Jesus we thus are in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Rom 8:9
It's perfect obedience, James 2:10. That's what the law requires.
Obviously there are no commandment keepers amongst us in the physical.
So why mix commandment keeping in with the gospel of grace?
We cannot mix grace with works of thelaw
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
So, I do not hate the law.
I just acknowledge that we are "not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ", Gal 2:16.
Hence I do not mix grace with works of the law. This is to be lukewarm, Rev 3:16.
Jesus did, however, keep the law . And Jesus is our inward man who delights after the law, Rom 7:22.
And it's Christ in us that God sees, Gal 2:20, Col 3:3.
And in believing in Jesus we thus are in the Spirit and not in the flesh, Rom 8:9
L
To say that we keep the law as result of Christ in us is not mixing law and grace. What is mixing law and grace is this
Acts 15:1 KJV
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
This is the issue that Paul is addressing in several of his books.
Acts 15:1 KJV
(1) And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
This is the issue that Paul is addressing in several of his books.
D
What this thread did is lead me to a new favorite verse. Romans 11:15 and caused me to read Romans chapter 11 completely. I know a few things about Elijah. My knowledge of the word, I won't get into this too much. My feeling on some things said. By no means drag your feet. My feelings are also toward grace. They are both present and we are all at different levels all in Gods plan. He is even speaking of the non belief of Israelites. And even that non belief saving some of their own non believers though being envious. God is shaping everyone to his will. This is what I get at the level I am at. Interesting post though. Thank you.
I just realized I was yet committing an error in how I was relating this, so here goes once again:
It is neither grace nor faith which does the actual saving.
The spirit of Christ is not in us by some mystic voodoo. It is in us by the implanted life-giving word that is Christ.
1 John 2:5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is (Jesus as our model of) the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
Jesus was the living expression of God's literal word/s and God's words are life:
1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.."
Webster realized that and so translated it this way, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us
" NOTICE WEBSTER LEFT "WORD" NOT CAPITALIZED.
And Webster is right that the words of God were rolled up in Jesus for us to gain an intimate familiarity with God's words which are life to us.
John 6:63b "............... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
Again, why did God send us one who was the embodiment of his literal words?
1 John 1:1b "...... which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.."
That is telling us that God sent his words to us in living form that we would be able to understand them through a closeup examination of them in action. Not for us to say LaLaLa, grace is saving me.
The words are the life and it is by obeying the words of life we receive salvation. There can be no other way.
Grace makes it possible by forgiveness (undeserved divine favor) because we were dead in sin and justly so. Those who are already justly dead cannot be saved through faith in those life-giving words. All grace did is forgive all. Thus whether under the Old Law or not under the Old Law all men had been forgiven and given a clean slate with God.
Therefore, if they would, they could now be save (Not by, but) through faith in those words of life. Salvation is in obedience to God's words as the keeping of God's words give us a righteous standing with him.
It is neither grace nor faith which does the actual saving.
The spirit of Christ is not in us by some mystic voodoo. It is in us by the implanted life-giving word that is Christ.
1 John 2:5 "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is (Jesus as our model of) the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him."
Jesus was the living expression of God's literal word/s and God's words are life:
1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.."
Webster realized that and so translated it this way, 1 John 1:1 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and testify, and show to you that eternal life which was with the Father, and was manifested to us
" NOTICE WEBSTER LEFT "WORD" NOT CAPITALIZED.And Webster is right that the words of God were rolled up in Jesus for us to gain an intimate familiarity with God's words which are life to us.
John 6:63b "............... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
John 3:34 "For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him."
Again, why did God send us one who was the embodiment of his literal words?
1 John 1:1b "...... which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life.."
That is telling us that God sent his words to us in living form that we would be able to understand them through a closeup examination of them in action. Not for us to say LaLaLa, grace is saving me.
The words are the life and it is by obeying the words of life we receive salvation. There can be no other way.
Grace makes it possible by forgiveness (undeserved divine favor) because we were dead in sin and justly so. Those who are already justly dead cannot be saved through faith in those life-giving words. All grace did is forgive all. Thus whether under the Old Law or not under the Old Law all men had been forgiven and given a clean slate with God.
Therefore, if they would, they could now be save (Not by, but) through faith in those words of life. Salvation is in obedience to God's words as the keeping of God's words give us a righteous standing with him.
What is this then?
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
What kind of seed does a living word of God sow?
Jesus sows the words of God's righteousness in us. They are that seed. The Holy Spirit helps us understand them so that they become part of us.
And as they are words of life, if they are really in us they live in us and keep us from sin.
Those are the same seeds we scatter and water if we have life flowing from our bellies.
1 John 3:9 "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
What kind of seed does a living word of God sow?
Jesus sows the words of God's righteousness in us. They are that seed. The Holy Spirit helps us understand them so that they become part of us.
And as they are words of life, if they are really in us they live in us and keep us from sin.
Those are the same seeds we scatter and water if we have life flowing from our bellies.
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H
My point is that you determine righteousness by whether we show evidence of works of the law.
You are not content that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. The doctrine you follow demands physical evidence by keeping the law.
That is mixing grace with works of the law.
Also I had ask what is keeping the law?
Your answers to my previous questions suggest that you only partially keep the law.
That is not the same as keeping the law.
I had also asked what level of obedience to the law is acceptable to God, if perfect obedience is not required?
It's one thing to preach we should keep the law, but the reality is nobody is keeping (perfect obedience) the law. So as those preaching that we should keep the law all fail themselves at keeping the law, then where is the credibility in such doctrines?
And the fact that these same people preach condemnation for any who do not keep the law, then they themselves are condemned.
They're condemned in that they are under the law and fail to keep (perfect obedience) it. They make themselves sinners, Gal 2:18.
And they're condemned in that their desire to be under the law, mixing it with grace, is really unbelief in Jesus. And unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
You are not content that our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. The doctrine you follow demands physical evidence by keeping the law.
That is mixing grace with works of the law.
Also I had ask what is keeping the law?
Your answers to my previous questions suggest that you only partially keep the law.
That is not the same as keeping the law.
I had also asked what level of obedience to the law is acceptable to God, if perfect obedience is not required?
It's one thing to preach we should keep the law, but the reality is nobody is keeping (perfect obedience) the law. So as those preaching that we should keep the law all fail themselves at keeping the law, then where is the credibility in such doctrines?
And the fact that these same people preach condemnation for any who do not keep the law, then they themselves are condemned.
They're condemned in that they are under the law and fail to keep (perfect obedience) it. They make themselves sinners, Gal 2:18.
And they're condemned in that their desire to be under the law, mixing it with grace, is really unbelief in Jesus. And unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Do you discount or take away that we are created new raised form the dead in the Spirit of God, and actually being taught by God to do what? How about the same as Christ did, He did nothing and or said nothing without the Holy Ghost's lead. His ministry did not even start until the baptism where John announced the Messiah has arrived the one that has come to take away first the sins of the world John 1:29. Not even the apostles ministry start until the day of Pentecost why? Because no one can do anything without the blessing of recieving the holy Ghost which is today provided for all and to all of those that believe.
This is the ministry, and even in Ecclesiastes tihs is backed up all is futile unless done with God. Please both of us be careful to not get caught up in out own works and destroy one another when we both and many others here do believe and are learning about the incredible love of God through the Son.
Thanks
This is the ministry, and even in Ecclesiastes tihs is backed up all is futile unless done with God. Please both of us be careful to not get caught up in out own works and destroy one another when we both and many others here do believe and are learning about the incredible love of God through the Son.
Thanks
And not in taking it for granted as some have done for we see that if we do then we do not see grace for what is wass meant to be and then how shall we escape if we take advantage
Hebrews 2:3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
Hebrews 2:3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him.
E
To make things short, all those that agree that it's the Law that saves, then there's no need for you to have faith in Christ. It goes against everything Christ came here to fulfill and do. And for all of you that believe it's the Grace of God that saves, then, keep on believing in His finished work. And always keep searching. Just end this dispute now. We are all given the free will, and sometimes, we can try to change someone else's mind. But if they don't want to, then leave it be. The opportunity was there for them. Hopefully, they grab it and don't regret it for the rest of their life. Eternity, I mean.
But remember this; Just because you're "Christian", doesn't mean you're going to Heaven. Just because you "follow" the Law, or at lest try to, doesn't mean you're not going to Hell. Understand this. God bless.
But remember this; Just because you're "Christian", doesn't mean you're going to Heaven. Just because you "follow" the Law, or at lest try to, doesn't mean you're not going to Hell. Understand this. God bless.
it reall is all a gift from God period, what Mercy and this is my response to the Mercy bestowed on me, and that is to have Mercy as I have recieved Mercy, to Love as I am loved and Forgive as I am forgiven'
so this remains then how much does God love us all? and we willrespond according to how much we beleive god to love us, the forgiven part is the same as well as the Mercy part
So how much does God love you, how much has he forgiven you and how much Mercy has God had on you?
I know how i respond. Iove because I am loved I foprgive becasue I am forgiven, and I ahve Mercy be God has had Mercy on me
so this remains then how much does God love us all? and we willrespond according to how much we beleive god to love us, the forgiven part is the same as well as the Mercy part
So how much does God love you, how much has he forgiven you and how much Mercy has God had on you?
I know how i respond. Iove because I am loved I foprgive becasue I am forgiven, and I ahve Mercy be God has had Mercy on me
So now move on from the death to the life which is the resurrection and one does obey, of and by God being born again which is the completed Gospel of the cross, no molre worry, no more stress, no more concern in troubles unless one gets caught back up in self-works. But God is Faithful tocarry on the work that God started in each of us to the day coming ahead whatever that may be. I have so far learned to live one day at a time in the Spirit of God and dead to flesh, and God being the teacher sets one free
Not commandment keepers. Jesus Christ followers. Holy Spirit filled with fruit of the spirit clear for those to see.
The bible plainly says if you go back to fulfilling the law through your flesh you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:2-7
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
And...
Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
The bible plainly says if you go back to fulfilling the law through your flesh you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:2-7
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
And...
Galatians 3:23-26
[SUP]23 [/SUP]But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
N
Idk if I read this correctly from the original post...
"BELIEVE that Jesus came to this earth and took all the sins of the world unto him when He was baptized by John the Baptist at the River of Jordan."
When he was baptized at Jordan he received approval from God and the endowment of the holy ghost in the form of a dove.
Jesus didn't bare our sins till he was actually on the cross.
1 Peter 2:24 KJV
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Jesus cried to God and asked why He had forsaken him.(Matthew 27:46) At this moment he was bearing all the sins of the world and God can not look upon sin or dwell where sin is present. So Jesus couldn't feel God's present at this particular moment when he was bearing all of our sins on the cross. Then he gave up the ghost (died).
Also the true completed work was the resurrection of Jesus. It didn't just end at the cross because death is negative, God is the God of life. God doesn't just tell us to believe the death and burial but also more importantly the resurrection. Death was done by man but the resurrection was done by the power of God. The resurrection conquered death, death can't conquer death. But life after death shows the victory over death.
So yes sin ended at the cross but the resurrection ended the death penalty and gives us new life. Paul emphasizes on walking in newness of life after we are dead to sin.
The Total completed work goes beyond the cross to the resurrection which bring about the newness of life or the resurrection of our spirit to be alive to God.
"BELIEVE that Jesus came to this earth and took all the sins of the world unto him when He was baptized by John the Baptist at the River of Jordan."
When he was baptized at Jordan he received approval from God and the endowment of the holy ghost in the form of a dove.
Jesus didn't bare our sins till he was actually on the cross.
1 Peter 2:24 KJV
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Jesus cried to God and asked why He had forsaken him.(Matthew 27:46) At this moment he was bearing all the sins of the world and God can not look upon sin or dwell where sin is present. So Jesus couldn't feel God's present at this particular moment when he was bearing all of our sins on the cross. Then he gave up the ghost (died).
Also the true completed work was the resurrection of Jesus. It didn't just end at the cross because death is negative, God is the God of life. God doesn't just tell us to believe the death and burial but also more importantly the resurrection. Death was done by man but the resurrection was done by the power of God. The resurrection conquered death, death can't conquer death. But life after death shows the victory over death.
So yes sin ended at the cross but the resurrection ended the death penalty and gives us new life. Paul emphasizes on walking in newness of life after we are dead to sin.
The Total completed work goes beyond the cross to the resurrection which bring about the newness of life or the resurrection of our spirit to be alive to God.
Jesus had came to stand in our place for judgement; for it was time to judge the people. During His death, some of the people had claimed that they had seen people that had died walking around, and the sky was darkened, and the earthquakes. These are some of the signs that letting us know that is was judgement day.
Matthew 27:45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land.
Matthew 27:51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split
Matthew 27:52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Matthew 24:29“Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Isaiah 13:13 - Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Luke 20:37
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
Mark 12:25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Matthew 27:45 From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land.
Matthew 27:51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split
Matthew 27:52and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.
Matthew 24:29“Immediately after the distress of those days “‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Isaiah 13:13 - Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.
Luke 20:37
But in the account of the burning bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’
Mark 12:25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.