Jesus and Wine
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Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
A broader, generic meaning of methuo is to be full, satiated. As methuo is used in the LXX David said his cup runneth over/methuo. David's cup was full not drunken but full. If the Corinthians were drunk Paul would have condemned them for being drunk, Gal 5:19-21. But the context shows Paul is contrasting "hungry to "methuo", that is, empty to full.
in1 Cor 11:20 Paul refers to the Lord's Supper. Nowhere is onios ever used in referring to the Lord's Supper but "fruit of the vine" that literally means that which is born of the vine. Grape juice, not fermented wine, is what is naturally born of the vine.
A broader, generic meaning of methuo is to be full, satiated. As methuo is used in the LXX David said his cup runneth over/methuo. David's cup was full not drunken but full. If the Corinthians were drunk Paul would have condemned them for being drunk, Gal 5:19-21. But the context shows Paul is contrasting "hungry to "methuo", that is, empty to full.
in1 Cor 11:20 Paul refers to the Lord's Supper. Nowhere is onios ever used in referring to the Lord's Supper but "fruit of the vine" that literally means that which is born of the vine. Grape juice, not fermented wine, is what is naturally born of the vine.
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The bible condemns drunkenness..period as in Gal 5:19-21. So it condemns all varying degrees of drunkenness.
In Gal 5:21 Paul did NOT say "Envyings, murders, EXCESSIVE drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
In Gal 5:21 Paul did NOT say "Envyings, murders, EXCESSIVE drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
G3184
μεθύω
methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).
Total KJV occurrences: 7
Now you can call the word drunken a space shuttle if you wish, but the word means drunken. They got drunk from drinking too much wine.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
G3184
μεθύω
methuō
meth-oo'-o
From another form of G3178; to drink to intoxication, that is, get drunk: - drink well, make (be) drunk (-en).
Total KJV occurrences: 7
Now you can call the word drunken a space shuttle if you wish, but the word means drunken. They got drunk from drinking too much wine.
K
You can clearly tell that it is fermented in some of these cases;
Ephesians 5:18 says not to drink it in excess, there would not need to be a warning like this if it is unfermented or grape juice.
Leviticus 10:9 God tells them do not drink wine or strong drink only when they go into the tabernacle. This shows they can drink it outside the tabernacle. For they are to be of sober mind in worship.
Psalm 104:15 says wine that makes you glad, unfermented or grape juice doesn't do that.
Judges 13:7 is a warning not to drink wine during pregnancy. Unfermented or grape juice would still be ok to drink during a pregnancy, but fermented would be because it is common that alcohol can cause birth defects and complications.
Jeremiah 35:5-8 shows the wine in pots, which shows they are already in the fermented state.
Proverbs 31:6 shows it is ok to let he who is dying and is dealing with a hard issue in their life to drink the pain away.
Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
The Greek word methuo has a generic broad meaning of being full or satiated.
The CONTEXT shows Paul is contrasting hungry/empty to being full. So the context itself does not prove methuo means inebriated. Paul goes on to say "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?" Paul was not condoning them being drunk at a corporal church meeting or at their own houses for Paul condemned drunkenness and would have condemned it here if they had been drunk.
The Greek word methuo has a generic broad meaning of being full or satiated.
The CONTEXT shows Paul is contrasting hungry/empty to being full. So the context itself does not prove methuo means inebriated. Paul goes on to say "What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not?" Paul was not condoning them being drunk at a corporal church meeting or at their own houses for Paul condemned drunkenness and would have condemned it here if they had been drunk.
Drunkenness is a matter of degree, 1 Pet 4:3 where Peter lists 3 varying degrees from excess to banquetings. Banquetings means 'to drink" with no amount attached to it and can mean a small amount.
If a person is excessively drunk on his 10th drink, did the first drink have anything to do with his drunkenness as the last one? Yes, just as much.
If the lord beat his servant, did the beating begin with the first hit or the last one?
If a person is excessively drunk on his 10th drink, did the first drink have anything to do with his drunkenness as the last one? Yes, just as much.
If the lord beat his servant, did the beating begin with the first hit or the last one?
Re: Jesus and Wine: What do you want to force the scriptures to mean.
I suppose I could list that everyone "else" that translates scriptures, and is an expert, sees the meaning as consistently being "drunk". But instead, I would ask, where the command in scripture is that says, "Thou shalt not eat food", or "Thou shalt not drink wine with alcohol in scripture. I see the commands not to be drunk with wine. I am not saying that you can't teach as a doctrine the beliefs of men, of course you can, there are consequences for teaching as doctrines the precepts of men, but you can.
Of course such a belief renders what Jesus said to be true senseless gibberish, but you can believe as you please.
Luk 7:33 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!' 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
Here's the problem, if what Jesus said was true about himself wasn't true, then you make Jesus a liar. How ever if what was said is true, and the Pharisees saw Jesus drinking grape juice, everyone would have laughed the religious leaders out of town. Think about it. You pop open a can of Welch's Grape juice and I accuse you at the church of being a drunkard for doing so. What happens? Everyone thinks I am a nut and they move on. If, however, I take the religious leaders to your house and we go in your house and there are 4 empty wine bottles (The real wine), then my statement has merit, and a church that believes in no alcohol will be reproving you.
The point is, Jesus doesn't say that He didn't come eating at all, or that He didn't come drinking alcohol at all. Whatever meaning you take for the first part of the sentence you mist apply to the second. If you are saying Jesus never drank alcoholic wine, as He claimed, (The wording is without restriction other than He did not sin by getting drunk) then you must also conclude that Jesus never ate food at all either, and thus for the same reason, the claims of the religious leaders would have been ludicrous, and Jesus would have died of starvation long before His death on the cross.
If what Jesus said he did was a lie, and what he said John the Baptist did was a lie, then the words of the Pharisees would have held no more weight for either of them than me claiming I saw you walking on the moon last night. These were real reasons why they discredited John, and why they discredited Jesus, and Jesus does not deny it, HE CONFIRMS that what they believe they are seeing is valid. The Son of Man did come both eating and drinking to the point where the religious leaders views were justified to them. Yet wisdom is vindicated by her children.
Now that I think about it, there is no way to conclude that Jesus didn't drink real wine without making Jesus a liar. He doesn't offer any other options. He doesn't deny that to them both claims are justifiable based on the facts. He just disagrees with the conclusions.
I can't wait to see what feats of hermeneutical contortionism the God commanded never to drink alcohol, but we can't find the verse crowd will go to. We've already seen the results on the 1 Cor. passage. By the way, is there a translation of scripture that doesn't translate that passage as some were drunk and others went hungry? A real translation that is?
I suppose I could list that everyone "else" that translates scriptures, and is an expert, sees the meaning as consistently being "drunk". But instead, I would ask, where the command in scripture is that says, "Thou shalt not eat food", or "Thou shalt not drink wine with alcohol in scripture. I see the commands not to be drunk with wine. I am not saying that you can't teach as a doctrine the beliefs of men, of course you can, there are consequences for teaching as doctrines the precepts of men, but you can.
Of course such a belief renders what Jesus said to be true senseless gibberish, but you can believe as you please.
Luk 7:33 "For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, 'He has a demon!' 34 "The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
Here's the problem, if what Jesus said was true about himself wasn't true, then you make Jesus a liar. How ever if what was said is true, and the Pharisees saw Jesus drinking grape juice, everyone would have laughed the religious leaders out of town. Think about it. You pop open a can of Welch's Grape juice and I accuse you at the church of being a drunkard for doing so. What happens? Everyone thinks I am a nut and they move on. If, however, I take the religious leaders to your house and we go in your house and there are 4 empty wine bottles (The real wine), then my statement has merit, and a church that believes in no alcohol will be reproving you.
The point is, Jesus doesn't say that He didn't come eating at all, or that He didn't come drinking alcohol at all. Whatever meaning you take for the first part of the sentence you mist apply to the second. If you are saying Jesus never drank alcoholic wine, as He claimed, (The wording is without restriction other than He did not sin by getting drunk) then you must also conclude that Jesus never ate food at all either, and thus for the same reason, the claims of the religious leaders would have been ludicrous, and Jesus would have died of starvation long before His death on the cross.
If what Jesus said he did was a lie, and what he said John the Baptist did was a lie, then the words of the Pharisees would have held no more weight for either of them than me claiming I saw you walking on the moon last night. These were real reasons why they discredited John, and why they discredited Jesus, and Jesus does not deny it, HE CONFIRMS that what they believe they are seeing is valid. The Son of Man did come both eating and drinking to the point where the religious leaders views were justified to them. Yet wisdom is vindicated by her children.
Now that I think about it, there is no way to conclude that Jesus didn't drink real wine without making Jesus a liar. He doesn't offer any other options. He doesn't deny that to them both claims are justifiable based on the facts. He just disagrees with the conclusions.
I can't wait to see what feats of hermeneutical contortionism the God commanded never to drink alcohol, but we can't find the verse crowd will go to. We've already seen the results on the 1 Cor. passage. By the way, is there a translation of scripture that doesn't translate that passage as some were drunk and others went hungry? A real translation that is?