Jesus and Wine

kennethcadwell · Dec 2, 2014

Yes, but to eliminate all debate about this even though some will still try to make a case to no avail.
This is when you have to take Jewish tradition and how it applies in this situation to show if it would be fermented or unfermented.

In Jewish tradition they set out the good flavored fermented wine first, then after everybody got drunk they would bring out a lesser quality wine to save the better wine because nobody would no the difference being drunk. And we see in the scripture that the master of the feast called out to the bridegroom about why he saved the best wine for last.
When you take that into consideration then you can see that the oinos used hear means fermented wine.

Yahshua · Dec 2, 2014

Jakob said:

Good points...

I agree that the reason why Christ made wine was because his mother asked him. But I believe it was actual wine and not grape juice since this was a wedding celebration.

Mark 2:22

And no one pours new wine into old wine skins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wine skins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wine skins.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but what Christ is describing here is the fermenting process for actual wine. Old wine skins are not strong enough to survive the fermenting caused by new wine as it ages. To me, for Christ to use this example as a teaching tool meant that wine was neutral: it isn't a forbidden drink. Now would he drink it? I don't think so...but I don't think it was because he was avoiding a sin. He came to serve. So in this way I think he was like John the baptist.

Luke 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

If we go back to the first incident of wine with Noah, we find that drinking until he was drunk wasn't counted as a sin against him...but it did cause his nakedness, resulting in disrespect of him and a subsequent curse on one of his offspring. And all throughout scripture there isn't a commandment not to drink wine or strong drink but rather strong advice to stay *sober* by God's men (just like there's advice to stay single and devoted to God...but if one can't, get married).

The real issue with drinking is - like any other vice - it can be an indulgence of the flesh, and as followers of Christ we are supposed to crucify the flesh and its lusts. To allow our flesh to rule us is being unrighteous and contrary to the will of God. Like God meant sex within marriage, wine is meant to be enjoyed in the proper context and with responsibility...but many allow their flesh to rule and become drunkards.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice it doesn't say drinking wine is unrighteous but being a drunkard is.

---

Now Christ didn't need to make water into wine so that his disciples would believe in him. But performing the miracle did cause his disciples to believe in him more because of it. What's interesting is the deeper reason behind why he used the six stone water pots...

John 2:6 [brackets mine for context]

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the [Pharisees] for ceremonial [cleansing], each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

This was a Pharisee wedding reception...and it was tradition to make ceremonially pure water for ritual, but such a commandment is nowhere in God's commandments.

As far as the Pharisees had commanded, these stone water pots were *never* to be used for *anything* but ritual purification of water; *definitely* not to be used for drinking. So Christ in fact used them...

John 2:7-8 [brackets mine for context]

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet [>>a Pharisee<<].”

This was the very first volley in a series of attacks against the man-made religious traditions the Pharisees established that enslaved his people; that caused his sheep to become "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

John 2:9-10 [brackets mine for context]

They did so, and the master of the banquet [>>a Pharisee<<] tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said,

“Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

The master Pharisee said, "This is the best wine I have ever had!!" and it came from pots he was never supposed to drink from lol.

phil112 · Dec 2, 2014

Jakob said:

Just send Dcon a pm. He can tell you all about this topic.

kennethcadwell · Dec 2, 2014

Yahshua said:

Good points...

I agree that the reason why Christ made wine was because his mother asked him. But I believe it was actual wine and not grape juice since this was a wedding celebration.

Mark 2:22

And no one pours new wine into old wine skins. Otherwise, the wine will burst the skins, and both the wine and the wine skins will be ruined. No, they pour new wine into new wine skins.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but what Christ is describing here is the fermenting process for actual wine. Old wine skins are not strong enough to survive the fermenting caused by new wine as it ages. To me, for Christ to use this example as a teaching tool meant that wine was neutral: it isn't a forbidden drink. Now would he drink it? I don't think so...but I don't think it was because he was avoiding a sin. He came to serve. So in this way I think he was like John the baptist.

Luke 1:15

For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

If we go back to the first incident of wine with Noah, we find that drinking until he was drunk wasn't counted as a sin against him...but it did cause his nakedness, resulting in disrespect of him and a subsequent curse on one of his offspring. And all throughout scripture there isn't a commandment not to drink wine or strong drink but rather strong advice to stay *sober* by God's men (just like there's advice to stay single and devoted to God...but if one can't, get married).

The real issue with drinking is - like any other vice - it can be an indulgence of the flesh, and as followers of Christ we are supposed to crucify the flesh and its lusts. To allow our flesh to rule us is being unrighteous and contrary to the will of God. Like God meant sex within marriage, wine is meant to be enjoyed in the proper context and with responsibility...but many allow their flesh to rule and become drunkards.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?

Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Notice it doesn't say drinking wine is unrighteous but being a drunkard is.

---

Now Christ didn't need to make water into wine so that his disciples would believe in him. But performing the miracle did cause his disciples to believe in him more because of it. What's interesting is the deeper reason behind why he used the six stone water pots...

John 2:6 [brackets mine for context]

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the [Pharisees] for ceremonial [cleansing], each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

This was a Pharisee wedding reception...and it was tradition to make ceremonially pure water for ritual, but such a commandment is nowhere in God's commandments.

View attachment 92858

As far as the Pharisees had commanded, these stone water pots were *never* to be used for *anything* but ritual purification of water; *definitely* not to be used for drinking. So Christ in fact used them...

John 2:7-8 [brackets mine for context]

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet [>>a Pharisee<<].”

This was the very first volley in a series of attacks against the man-made religious traditions the Pharisees established that enslaved his people; that caused his sheep to become "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

John 2:9-10 [brackets mine for context]

They did so, and the master of the banquet [>>a Pharisee<<] tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said,

“Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

The master Pharisee said, "This is the best wine I have ever had!!" and it came from pots he was never supposed to drink from lol.

You are exactly right in what you say, especially about the wine skins.
Yes new wine can not go into old wine skins because during fermentation gases are released, and if put in an old wine skin the gas would make the skin expand and bust.
I also gave another reason by using Jewish tradition in my post #21 why this would also be fermented wine in the passage.

dcontroversal · Dec 2, 2014

phil112 said:

HAHAHHAH why yes I can HAHAHAHHAHA funny....hic uppppp

HAHAH

Kerry · Dec 3, 2014

well go the local rehab center and see what they say? Solomon said don't even look at it.

kaylagrl · Dec 3, 2014

[h=1]Romans 14:21...It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[/h] I do not believe the Bible condones the drinking of alcohol.It warns again and again about strong drink and being drunk.The whole purpose of alcohol is to get that buzzed feeling.An alcoholic doesnt know they have a problem until they take the first drink.Christians should not be drinking,definitely should not be at bars.Dont look at the wine when red means when it is fermented.

Kerry · Dec 3, 2014

kaylagrl said:

As an alcoholic it is a battle that you do not want. it reminds me of Job where God say says arouse behemoth awaken him, remember the battle and never do it it again. I have battled alcohol most of my life and only by the cross am I set free.

Well a little wine with a meal is okay. yet your five year old is watching and when she takes her first sip she is taken and is in the battle and has five children from men she don't know. Why take the chance?

kaylagrl · Dec 3, 2014

Kerry said:

As an alcoholic it is a battle that you do not want. it reminds me of Job where God say says arouse behemoth awaken him, remember the battle and never do it it again. I have battled alcohol most of my life and only by the cross am I set free.

Well a little wine with a meal is okay. yet your five year old is watching and when she takes her first sip she is taken and is in the battle and has five children from men she don't know. Why take the chance?

Great point,I totally agree with you Kerry.

oldhermit · Dec 3, 2014

kennethcadwell said:

You would never be able to prove that grammatically.

4enlightment · Dec 3, 2014

Jakob said:

John 2:10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

john832 · Dec 3, 2014

Kerry said:

And Paul said to drink it...

1Ti 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

john832 · Dec 3, 2014

kaylagrl said:

Jdg 9:13 And the vine said unto them, Should I leave my wine, which cheereth God and man, and go to be promoted over the trees?

Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

And Christ was accused of what?

Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

Dinking is not a sin, drunkenness is a terrible sin.

Gluttony is a sin, so the cure is to NEVER eat? Or is the appropriate action to eat and drink in moderation?

kaylagrl · Dec 3, 2014

john832 said:

Well they didnt have pepcid back then now did they?

It was for medicine,thats a different story.My uncle attended church when he was young,back when it was considered wrong to drink or even go to a restaurant that sold alcohol.In his teen years he left church and took his first drink.He became a lifelong alcoholic.Should the church look like the world? I know if he was in a bar and a Christian was drinking next to him and trying to lead him to Jesus he would consider that person a hypocrite and walked away thinking "they are no different than me".He died a hopeless alcoholic.His family left because he was abusive and couldnt stay sober longer then a few days.

If someone is struggling with alcohol and come to church and go to a restaurant with a bunch of Christians drinking what message does that send? You are being a stumbling block.It takes one drink to make an alcoholic. William Booth would not he serve wine in communion because he knew it was a temptation to new Christians.There is no good argument for drinking.It is not something we must have,it is not necessary.

Tintin · Dec 3, 2014

kaylagrl said:

There are some people that should never drink alcohol. I'm certainly not perfect but I drink alcohol and I've never felt the need to get drunk. I much prefer food. I drink alcohol in moderation, nothing more. My family doesn't have a history of alcoholism and we were taught to respect it. I never drank as a teenager (save for Holy Communion) and I never felt tempted to drink then. Later on, after high school, I attended a few parties and nightclubs - they weren't my scene. My not drinking with people proved to be a good witness but there were other times my drinking in moderation with friends was a good witness.

john832 · Dec 3, 2014

kaylagrl said:

Well they didnt have pepcid back then now did they?

It was for medicine,thats a different story.My uncle attended church when he was young,back when it was considered wrong to drink or even go to a restaurant that sold alcohol.In his teen years he left church and took his first drink.He became a lifelong alcoholic.Should the church look like the world? I know if he was in a bar and a Christian was drinking next to him and trying to lead him to Jesus he would consider that person a hypocrite and walked away thinking "they are no different than me".He died a hopeless alcoholic.His family left because he was abusive and couldnt stay sober longer then a few days.

If someone is struggling with alcohol and come to church and go to a restaurant with a bunch of Christians drinking what message does that send? You are being a stumbling block.It takes one drink to make an alcoholic. William Booth would not he serve wine in communion because he knew it was a temptation to new Christians.There is no good argument for drinking.It is not something we must have,it is not necessary.

Either it is sin to drink or it is not. Bible says it is not sin to drink, it is sin to be drunk. Same with eating (in fact drunkenness and gluttony are quite often mentioned together), it is not sin to eat, it is sin to be a glutton.

john832 · Dec 3, 2014

Tintin said:

Good point. I can drink a glass of wine, a beer or even a shot of good whiskey, enjoy it and never feel the need to drink anymore.

For an alcoholic, one drink is too many and a river of booze is not enough. For that person, he should refrain from alcohol entirely (except for a very small sip at Passover).

john832 · Dec 3, 2014

Something interesting about these threads about alcohol is that gluttony is NEVER addressed. It is just as much a sin to overeat as it is to overdrink.

kaylagrl · Dec 3, 2014

john832 said:

Everyone thinks they can tolerate alcohol.I dont believe the Bible teaches moderation at all. I believe it teaches us to stay away from alcohol. Overeating does not cause someone else to overeat. Though I dont agree with it either. Drinking is a bad testimony esp. to people that have an issue with alcohol.You dont need it.Food you do but not alcohol. Again one does not know they are an alcoholic until they take the first drink.We should not be a stumbling block.

Richie_2uk · Dec 3, 2014

john832 said:

The bible is clear not to polute your body. Alchohol is a polutent to ones body. The bible don't tell you not to drink. However just make sure you not drunk the day Jesus comes back. Back then in Jesus times certain fruits they used for wines, had some sort of alcholic effect on people who drank it. Hence why many were drunk. Wine has good properties for health issues. So again the bible don't tells us not to drink. But tells us to be sober. and sober minded. and not to polute the body. So its down to you, how much alchohol you consume. But Just drink it in moderation and drink it for enjoyment of the drink and not enjoyment to get drunk.

Jesus and Wine

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