Jesus Came To Fulfill Not To Destroy

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

If you had the capability of following OT commandments then the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to sacrifice Himself on the Cross.

He could have just sent another prophet to tell the people to repent and follow the commandments.
It isn't about following the law to be saved.... No one has said we must earn salvation by works. It is all about faith in the salvation of Christ...
But the question is ....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? ....Paul knew that God is our sufficiency, Christ paid it all, and salvation is by grace through faith... But the answer to the question is.....
God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you choose to make the law void by faith you are doing the wrong thing and no following Christ.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
It isn't about following the law to be saved.... No one has said we must earn salvation by works. It is all about faith in the salvation of Christ...
But the question is ....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? ....Paul knew that God is our sufficiency, Christ paid it all, and salvation is by grace through faith... But the answer to the question is.....
God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you choose to make the law void by faith you are doing the wrong thing and no following Christ.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Commandments are relative to a covenant.

Do you actively participate in the fatal stoning of nonobservers of the Saturday Sabbath's rest? If not, you are not following the OT law. Stoning others to death isn't grievous. And yet you have not participated?

So either you have decided to cherry-pick the OT law, or you have acknowledged that you do not follow OT law.

And if you are cherry-picking OT law, where is your dividing line for what should be considered in play vs not in play?
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
I don't agree with your interpretation of what the royal law is. The royal law clearly is not talking about the Mosaic commandments.
Faith is personal and that is why Jesus will judge every case individually.
The mosaic commandments are not the Ten commandments, this point is were our difference is. Understanding the new and old covenant is what separates most people on this subject.
 
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
Faith is personal and that is why Jesus will judge every case individually.
The mosaic commandments are not the Ten commandments, this point is were our difference is. Understanding the new and old covenant is what separates most people on this subject.
The ten commandments of the OT are part of the Mosaic commandments.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
And if you are cherry-picking OT law, where is your dividing line for what should be considered in play vs not in play?
MOSES' LAW
Called "the law of Moses" (Luke 2:22).
Called "law ... contained in ordinances" (Ephesians 2:15).
Written by Moses in a book (2 Chronicles 35:12).
Placed in the side of the ark (Deuteronomy 31:26).
Ended at the cross (Ephesians 2:15).
Added because of sin (Galatians 3:19).
Contrary to us, against us (Colossians 2:14).
Judges no one (Colossians 2:14-16).
Fleshly (Hebrews 7:16).
Made nothing perfect (Hebrews 7:19).

GOD'S LAW
Called "the law of the Lord" (Isaiah 5:24).
Called "the royal law" (James 2:8).
Written by God on stone (Exodus 31:18 32:16).
Placed inside the ark (Exodus 40:20).
Will stand forever (Luke 16:17).
Points out sin (Romans 7:7 3:20).
Not burdensome (1 John 5:3).
Judges all people (James 2:10-12).
Spiritual (Romans 7:14).
Perfect (Psalms 19:7).
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,318
113
Australia
Moses’ law contained the temporary, ceremonial law of the Old Testament. It regulated the priesthood, sacrifices, rituals, meat and drink offerings, etc., all of which foreshadowed the cross. This law was added “till the Seed should come,” and that seed was Christ (Galatians 3:16, 19). The ritual and ceremony of Moses’ law pointed forward to Christ’s sacrifice. When He died, this law came to an end, but the Ten Commandments (God’s law) “stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:8). That there are two laws is made clear in Daniel 9:10, 11.

God’s law has existed at least as long as sin has existed. The Bible says, “Where there is no law there is no transgression [sin]” (Romans 4:15). So God’s Ten Commandment law existed from the beginning. Men broke that law (sinned—1 John 3:4). Because of sin (or breaking God’s law), Moses’ law was given (or “added”—Galatians 3:16, 19) till Christ should come and die. Two separate laws are involved: God’s law and Moses’ law.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
It isn't about following the law to be saved.... No one has said we must earn salvation by works. It is all about faith in the salvation of Christ...
But the question is ....
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? ....Paul knew that God is our sufficiency, Christ paid it all, and salvation is by grace through faith... But the answer to the question is.....
God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

If you choose to make the law void by faith you are doing the wrong thing and no following Christ.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
If you had the capability of following OT commandments then the Lord Jesus wouldn't have had to sacrifice Himself on the Cross.

Do you understand this statement?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
Did you respond to the wrong message? I am not talking about picking and choosing, I said we should simply do what the New Testament commands us to do. And it just so happens that some of the things like Thou shalt not steal, is a commandment in the new covenant as well.

Is the new testament also "law" to you? Weird guy.
Part of the new testament is Law.

You didn't know this?
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
You seem to be confused.

How is resting on 1 day and working the next 6 entering rest?

The passage says he has ceased ( Gk Katapauto - To stop. To cease, to put to an end, to complete, to hinder, to put to rest) from his work

it does not say he takes a break from his work for a day then starts up again, It says he has put to an end or stopped or ceased from his works.
You're making my point, yet I AM CONFUSED???

It's our duty to keep the Sabbath because if we've entered in God's rest, we'll demonstrate that by outward cessation from work, plain and simple. Do you plan on keeping it in heaven with the rest of us? Then by all means, start keeping it now :)
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Ahh

So it is as I thought.

You believe we start in the spirit. But must perfect our salvation in the flesh by working hard not to fall into sin or whatever you think can cause God to let go of us.
No, I don't believe we have anything to do with salvation except by faith accepting Jesus as our Savior from sin and our Lord to obey with "reasonable service"...after all, He died that unspeakably horrific, ignominious death and all He asks us to do is stop doing that which made necessary His death in the first place.

Yes, Lord, I'll do whatever you say, and thank you.

So, do you believe we can abide in the Vine, but on occasion disconnect from it and walk down to street, and climb up in Satan's "hollywood" tree? Because that's what OSAS teaches - that Jesus and Satan have joint custody of the kids.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Yet the author says we have ceased fro our work. Yet your demanding he says we continue our work (at the law}
can you explain how this makes sense?

Again, The author did not tell us to take a BREAK from our work (a 7th day rest period before we start up again) he say they HAVE CEASED from their work.

The 7th day sabbath is a DAY of rest.

then there is resting from the work (of the law)

Hebrews is speaking of rest from the law Not temporary rest for everyday work.
I'm not telling anyone to work! I'm telling y'all that every Sabbath, we get the day off, praise God!

Look, I get it. Nobody has a problem with "thou shalt not kill, steal, or commit adultery" b/c they don't want anyone taking their stuff or hurting them or sharing the wife.

But, the job, friends, and family are the issue...they're afraid to lose their job or friends or family. Well, the "fearful" are among those who Revelation says ain't getting into the kindgom, b/c you gotta love Jesus MORE than a job, family or friends.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
Hebrews 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

God didn't rest only on saturday. He didn't start back up and then rest the next saturday. Trying to fit Hebrews 4 into working at the Commandments is a Gross Conceptual Error. It is a contradiction of Christianity and scripture.
You seem to think we're supposed to follow God's itinerary...here's a plain text for you that should clear it all up:

"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six day shalt thou labor and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it, thou shalt not do any work..." - Jesus

"If ye love Me, keep MY commandments" - Jesus
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
That wasn't the yoke of bondage. That is you twisting scripture to JUSTIFY yourself at working at commandments.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?


This yoke wasn't "earning salvation by works". This yoke was working at the commandments.


There is no such thing as earning salvation by works. And because there is no such thing as earning salvation by works there is conversely no such thing as losing salvation by works, or lack therof.

Salvation is not from you or what you do. That's the point all the dummies have a hard time with (I include myself in that statement). Salvation is from the Lord. Every blessing we have is from the Lord. We are not owed any blessing because we have worked for it. Our work falls woefully short.

That's why working at the Commandments makes no sense after we have come to Christ. The Lord GIVES us much better blessings than we can earn ourselves from our supposed "obedience" or works of "righteousness".

The Lord gives us obedience. Otherwise we will not have it.
The Lord gives us Righteousness. Otherwise we will not have it.
The Lord gives us Salvation. Otherwise we will not have it.

Do you see the pattern?

The Lord gives us Rest. Otherwise we will not have it.

Pretending we are following commandments to "obey" a sabbath is NOT Rest.
Which is it? Either Paul is putting us under a yoke of bondage by telling us to keep commandments that are part of the Ten Commandments......OR.....Paul doesn't consider keeping God's commandments to be a "yoke" of bondage unless we're trying to earn salvation by that, right or wrong?

BTW, "...His commandments are not grievous" to them that love Him, but those that despise Him will fight Him tooth and nail to be free from their obligatory "reasonable service". Church is full of em.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
No, I don't believe we have anything to do with salvation except by faith accepting Jesus as our Savior from sin and our Lord to obey with "reasonable service"...after all, He died that unspeakably horrific, ignominious death and all He asks us to do is stop doing that which made necessary His death in the first place.

Yes, Lord, I'll do whatever you say, and thank you.

So, do you believe we can abide in the Vine, but on occasion disconnect from it and walk down to street, and climb up in Satan's "hollywood" tree? Because that's what OSAS teaches - that Jesus and Satan have joint custody of the kids.
So you believe we are saved only by faith

But you believe we can lose salvation by turning to sin.

Come on man. You just contradicted yourself.

You can;t claim faith alone, then say but we have to work.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
I'm not telling anyone to work! I'm telling y'all that every Sabbath, we get the day off, praise God!

Look, I get it. Nobody has a problem with "thou shalt not kill, steal, or commit adultery" b/c they don't want anyone taking their stuff or hurting them or sharing the wife.

But, the job, friends, and family are the issue...they're afraid to lose their job or friends or family. Well, the "fearful" are among those who Revelation says ain't getting into the kindgom, b/c you gotta love Jesus MORE than a job, family or friends.
Thats not what the author said though

he said we have ceased from our work. Period.. Not taken a day off.

Obeying the sabbath is a work of the law. Hence its a work.
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
So you believe we are saved only by faith

But you believe we can lose salvation by turning to sin.

Come on man. You just contradicted yourself.

You can;t claim faith alone, then say but we have to work.
Works are nothing but outward evidence of our cognitive choice, which is not "works", it's "thought".

A saved person winds up lost not because of his evil works, but because of his choice to reject God's authority in his life, the result of which is evil works.

That's an unwelcome truth to many who know their works expose them as unregenerate, so instead going to Jesus when James' "law mirror" shows them they're dirty, they just break the mirror.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
Works are nothing but outward evidence of our cognitive choice, which is not "works", it's "thought".

A saved person winds up lost not because of his evil works, but because of his choice to reject God's authority in his life, the result of which is evil works.

That's an unwelcome truth to many who know their works expose them as unregenerate, so instead going to Jesus when James' "law mirror" shows them they're dirty, they just break the mirror.
So your still depending on your works.

Why don;t you trust god?

1. To completely save you
2. to keep you from falling
3. To keep you from going to where he can not find you.

My scripture tells me jesus leaves the flock to find the lost sheep. And his true sheep know his voice and willingly follow

Why don;t you believe this?
 
Aug 3, 2019
3,744
507
113
So your still depending on your works.

Why don;t you trust god?

1. To completely save you
2. to keep you from falling
3. To keep you from going to where he can not find you.

My scripture tells me jesus leaves the flock to find the lost sheep. And his true sheep know his voice and willingly follow

Why don;t you believe this?
Again, works demonstrate whether we love Jesus or hate Jesus, and our choice to love Him or hate Him is what determines our destiny. Choice is not work, it's thought. Yes, I know it's an unwelcome truth to those who love sin. They should join the RCC, seeing that here is the real reason why so many "Protestants" fiercely defend her:

"A prayerful study of the Bible would show Protestants the real character of the papacy, and would cause them to abhor and to shun it; but many are so wise in their own conceit that they feel no need of humbly seeking God that they may be led into the truth. Although priding themselves on their enlightenment, they are ignorant both of the Scriptures and of the power of God. They must have some means of quieting their consciences; and they seek that which is least spiritual and humiliating. What they desire is a method of forgetting God which shall pass as a method of remembering him. The papacy is well adapted to meet the wants of all these. It is prepared for two classes of mankind, embracing nearly the whole world,—those who would be saved by their merits, and those who would be saved in their sins." - Great Controversy, pp. 572​
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,438
3,218
113
In (Matthew 5:17), Jesus made the statement Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. He came not to destroy the law, or the prophets, but to fulfill. Based on that statement many ministers have taught their congregation that the arrival of Jesus did away with the Old Testament along with its laws, statutes and Judgements. They even make the statement, to their congregation, that they are no longer under the Old Testament, but now operate under the New. So you have people believing that the Old Testament is no longer relevant today. One needs only to further examine the scriptures to find out, how incorrect that position is.

In (Matthew 5:18), Jesus Himself states For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Now you will find in a concordance that jot and tittle mean letter. Here Jesus clearly states that not one letter of the law will be changed as long as heaven and earth exist. We know that the law came from the Old Testament so based solely on (Matthew 5:18), it nor the Old Testament can not be done away with.

There is clearly a discrepancy between what is being taught and what the scriptures say. The fact, that Jesus came to fulfill is known, because that is what is stated in (Matthew 5:17). But one needs to find out what He was to fulfill, since that is the condition put forth in (Matthew 5:18), when He said no letter would pass from the law until all is fulfilled. You will see the information needed to answer this will be found in the Old Testament. This itself serves as further proof as to how erroneous the position of doing away with the Old Testament is. Let's focus on what Jesus was referring to when He said He came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill and His position on the commandments.

The Gospel of Luke, will reveal what Jesus meant when He said in (Matthew 5:17 & 18), that He came to fulfill and no letter would pass from the law until all is fulfilled. Looking at Luke chapter 24:14-44, you will find that , this is when Jesus had been crucified and Peter and others were at the grave site and they were contemplating the events that had occurred. Verse 16, tells you that Jesus had come among them but they did not know Him. In verse 17, Jesus asks them what were they discussing,

(17) And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

In verse 19 and 20, they explained to Jesus what had taken place, still not recognizing Him. Verse 21, tells why they were sad, they had expected Jesus to restore Israel. (Israel as a nation , had a history of being conquered by other nations. They had been split into two kingdoms and the northern kingdom had already been taken into captivity prior to this time. All that remained was Judah, and now it had been taken over by Rome.) Now this was the 3rd day since Jesus crucifixion and they were in question because to them nothing had changed. Israel still remained in its same state. Note what Jesus says to them in verse 25:

(25) Then he said unto them, O fool, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

Now the prophets had spoke of many things that Jesus was to do when He came. However they were just focused on the redemption of Israel. That is why Jesus told them in verse 25 that they were not bringing into remembrance all the things that were spoken of Him by the prophets. He reminded them in verse 26 that He had to suffer first and then enter into glory. He then in verse 27 went over all that the scriptures had to say concerning Himself. Following is verse 27,

(27) And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

The following verse explains what Jesus meant in (Matthew 5:17) where He said He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill. Jesus says in (Luke 24:44) And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Here Jesus makes it clear that all things written about Him in the Old Testament must be fulfilled. Knowing that all things must be fulfilled by Jesus, as long as heaven and earth is still here, tells us that the law (Commandments) are still here as well and must be kept.
You should try reading all of God's word instead of cherry picking what suits you. Lord Jesus fulfilled the Law already. He said on the cross, "It is finished". Galatians makes it clear what legalism is and where it leads to. Unless, of course, you are not yet saved. In which case, you are under the law.

1 Timothy 1:7-9

They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not understand what they are saying or that which they so confidently assert. Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it legitimately. We (but not you) realize that law is not enacted for the righteous, but for the lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for killers of father or mother, for murderers,…