Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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I don't know. I think yes, many of them were. Not all of them because we learn from Peter in Acts 2:29-31 that King David was not one of them. But I can't explain it or find it neatly explained in the scriptures. There are many things about that miraculous event that I don't think were "earthly" such that they literally, physically revived and began to live again in the world.
What if little Miriam fell asleep at 5 years of age 100 years ago? If she rose up, who would take care of her? What if little Elijah was a newborn infant who died at birth 65 years ago rose up? Who would take care of him? What if Mrs. So-and-So fell asleep 4 years ago rose up and found her husband remarried with a new family? What if Mr. So-and-So fell asleep 10 years ago rose up and found his children squandered their inheritance? Who would take care of him? What if others fell asleep 500 years ago rose up. They wouldn't know where they were. What if the former kings rose up? What if former Pharisees rose up? They would immediately transform the Jewish leadership and Judaism would be profoundly different today.
Historians would have recorded this amazing thing. This would be a historical event. Volumes of history books would be out there discussing this event. The Romans were there. They would have reported this. They would have put all these revived people from whenever they were from on census and tax rolls. I mean, this would be such an amazing worldly, earth-shatteringly miracle that would not have gone by unnoticed.
I do think they were transfigured into their uncorrupt bodies and went immediately into the Heavenly Holy City. But I cannot prove it. I cannot point to expositive scripture. I can't explain it any more than I can explain Moses being present with the Lord Jesus before his death being seen and witnessed by 3 disciples. I have a theory, but I can't prove it.
What if little Miriam fell asleep at 5 years of age 100 years ago? If she rose up, who would take care of her? What if little Elijah was a newborn infant who died at birth 65 years ago rose up? Who would take care of him? What if Mrs. So-and-So fell asleep 4 years ago rose up and found her husband remarried with a new family? What if Mr. So-and-So fell asleep 10 years ago rose up and found his children squandered their inheritance? Who would take care of him? What if others fell asleep 500 years ago rose up. They wouldn't know where they were. What if the former kings rose up? What if former Pharisees rose up? They would immediately transform the Jewish leadership and Judaism would be profoundly different today.
Historians would have recorded this amazing thing. This would be a historical event. Volumes of history books would be out there discussing this event. The Romans were there. They would have reported this. They would have put all these revived people from whenever they were from on census and tax rolls. I mean, this would be such an amazing worldly, earth-shatteringly miracle that would not have gone by unnoticed.
I do think they were transfigured into their uncorrupt bodies and went immediately into the Heavenly Holy City. But I cannot prove it. I cannot point to expositive scripture. I can't explain it any more than I can explain Moses being present with the Lord Jesus before his death being seen and witnessed by 3 disciples. I have a theory, but I can't prove it.
I think what I'm seeing here is the doctrine of "soul sleep." I don't believe the doctrine of "soul sleep" because of the following verses:
Genesis 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Genesis 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Genesis 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Numbers 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
Numbers 20:24 Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah.
Numbers 27:13 And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered.
Deuteronomy 32:50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Genesis 25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
Genesis 25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.
Genesis 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
Numbers 31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people.
Numbers 20:24 Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah.
Numbers 27:13 And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered.
Deuteronomy 32:50 And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:
2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
I already know that.
You have no clue about what you are babbling about here. I have no part with Q-anon. Nor am I obsessed with any political person.
You should be more careful about what you say, since you say things about which you have no idea.
Just lumping everyone into the same mold isn't very discerning.
btw, you don't even know my political affiliation, or whether I have one.
You have no clue about what you are babbling about here. I have no part with Q-anon. Nor am I obsessed with any political person.
You should be more careful about what you say, since you say things about which you have no idea.
Just lumping everyone into the same mold isn't very discerning.
btw, you don't even know my political affiliation, or whether I have one.
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Hello pumpkinbread,
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would suffer as a result of our faith vs. God's coming wrath. Since the onset of the church believers have been suffering the former. After the church has been gathered, the world will suffer the latter. For believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath in any capacity.
Concerning the great tribulation, Brother Runningman is right that it's not God's wrath. Look at the Scripture below.
You guys continue to employ the same errors, even after the error is revealed to you. So please take to heart what I have already told you. The Lord's discipline upon believers is not the same as the wrath that is going to come upon the entire earth. I keep telling you that there is a big difference between the trials and persecutions that believers face as a result of our faith vs. God's coming wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer. This is the reason why I posted a couple of different scriptures regarding 'The Day of the Lord' as being God's wrath.
I've said this many times and I'm saying it again here: Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. This is a basic principle which you and others can't seem to grasp or combine with the rest of scripture.
Believers have been suffering for their faith in Christ from the onset of the church till this very day, but it is not the wrath of God. What is coming will be unprecedented and will be the worst time in the history of the world. By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which is after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the population will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled, which is support by the fact that Jesus said, "Unless those days were shortened, not one would remain alive."
Forgive me for saying, but you guys who are making these claims just don't have enough study under your belts regarding end-time events, ergo, all the erroneous interpretations.
Just to be clear, there is a big difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would suffer as a result of our faith vs. God's coming wrath. Since the onset of the church believers have been suffering the former. After the church has been gathered, the world will suffer the latter. For believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath in any capacity.
Concerning the great tribulation, Brother Runningman is right that it's not God's wrath. Look at the Scripture below.
The above is the same thing that Jesus said in Matt.24:21, which is referring to the great tribulation which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. However, the time period of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, will begin once the church is removed from the earth. That entire seven years is the Day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.
During this seven year period, God will fulfill that last seven years of those seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem in Daniel 9:24. During this seven years is also when God will be pouring out His wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The answer is that, in Rev.12, the woman/Israel, will flee out into the wilderness where she will be cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. That is how Israel will be delivered.You guys continue to employ the same errors, even after the error is revealed to you. So please take to heart what I have already told you. The Lord's discipline upon believers is not the same as the wrath that is going to come upon the entire earth. I keep telling you that there is a big difference between the trials and persecutions that believers face as a result of our faith vs. God's coming wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer. This is the reason why I posted a couple of different scriptures regarding 'The Day of the Lord' as being God's wrath.
I've said this many times and I'm saying it again here: Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe. This is a basic principle which you and others can't seem to grasp or combine with the rest of scripture.
Believers have been suffering for their faith in Christ from the onset of the church till this very day, but it is not the wrath of God. What is coming will be unprecedented and will be the worst time in the history of the world. By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which is after the 7th bowl has been poured out, the population will have been decimated and all human government will have been dismantled, which is support by the fact that Jesus said, "Unless those days were shortened, not one would remain alive."
Forgive me for saying, but you guys who are making these claims just don't have enough study under your belts regarding end-time events, ergo, all the erroneous interpretations.
The way to understand the 'one taken, one left' scriptures, is to understand that the 'one taken' group is being compared to those who were taken in the flood. Therefore, the comparison is wicked to wicked, which would do away with the idea the 'one taken' being the raptured church.
What you are not understanding is that the church is not in view here, as they will have previously been gathered. When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out His angels who will go throughout the four corners of the earth and they will "first" collect the wicked (one's taken) and will take them back to where the Lord is where they will be killed by that double-edged sword where the birds will eat their flesh (Rev.19:17-18). The 'one's left' will be those of the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive throughout the entire seven years of tribulation and will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth along with the remnant of Israel. These great tribulation saints are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as belonging to every nation, people, tribe and language, which makes them all Gentiles. They will come to the knowledge of Christ after the church is caught up and during the time of God's wrath.
What you are not understanding is that the church is not in view here, as they will have previously been gathered. When Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out His angels who will go throughout the four corners of the earth and they will "first" collect the wicked (one's taken) and will take them back to where the Lord is where they will be killed by that double-edged sword where the birds will eat their flesh (Rev.19:17-18). The 'one's left' will be those of the great tribulation saints who will have made it alive throughout the entire seven years of tribulation and will be allowed to enter into the millennial kingdom to repopulate the earth along with the remnant of Israel. These great tribulation saints are introduced in Rev.7:9-17 as belonging to every nation, people, tribe and language, which makes them all Gentiles. They will come to the knowledge of Christ after the church is caught up and during the time of God's wrath.
Whatever... =)
25 Husbands, love the wives just as Christ also loved the church [SINGULAR] and gave Himself up for her [SINGULAR], 26 so that He might sanctify her [SINGULAR], having cleansed her by the washing of water by the word, 27 so that He might present [same word in 2Cor11:2] to Himself the church [SINGULAR] in glory, not having spot or wrinkle or any of the such things, but that it would be holy and blameless.
... just as Christ also does the church [SINGULAR]. 30 For we are members of His body.
... and be joined to his wife [SINGULAR], and the two will be into one flesh.” 32 This mystery is great; but I speak as to Christ and as to the church [SINGULAR].
[note: the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" are not said to be "PRESENTED" to Him... in fact, He will be "RETURN[ing]," at that point, "FROM THE WEDDING" as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom--Matt24 passage parallel with the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 passage "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--where the "LAMPS LIT / LIGHTS BURNING" issue is also being referenced in v.35--which refers to the "IN THE NIGHT" / "NIGHT WATCHES" that relates to [/is IN / WITHIN] the "DOTL" time period, i.e. the [7-yr-]TRIB aspect, that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" does not step one foot into
See again my Post #4, on that... ]
25 Husbands, love the wives just as Christ also loved the church [SINGULAR] and gave Himself up for her [SINGULAR], 26 so that He might sanctify her [SINGULAR], having cleansed her by the washing of water by the word, 27 so that He might present [same word in 2Cor11:2] to Himself the church [SINGULAR] in glory, not having spot or wrinkle or any of the such things, but that it would be holy and blameless.
... just as Christ also does the church [SINGULAR]. 30 For we are members of His body.
... and be joined to his wife [SINGULAR], and the two will be into one flesh.” 32 This mystery is great; but I speak as to Christ and as to the church [SINGULAR].
[note: the "5 VirginS [PLURAL]" are not said to be "PRESENTED" to Him... in fact, He will be "RETURN[ing]," at that point, "FROM THE WEDDING" as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom--Matt24 passage parallel with the Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44,45-48 passage "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal [G347]--where the "LAMPS LIT / LIGHTS BURNING" issue is also being referenced in v.35--which refers to the "IN THE NIGHT" / "NIGHT WATCHES" that relates to [/is IN / WITHIN] the "DOTL" time period, i.e. the [7-yr-]TRIB aspect, that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" does not step one foot into
See again my Post #4, on that... ]While those verses neither confirm or deny the doctrine of soul sleep, I tend to lean in favor that when the Bible refers to someone who sleeping or asleep that it is referring to someone who is deceased.
There are many good verses that demonstrate consciousness in the afterlife which rules out being asleep. What this doesn't rule out is if souls have the ability to sleep and, if so, then how long can they sleep or are required to sleep.
There are many good verses that demonstrate consciousness in the afterlife which rules out being asleep. What this doesn't rule out is if souls have the ability to sleep and, if so, then how long can they sleep or are required to sleep.
There isn't a "one-to-one correlation" between these two passages
(see again my Post #2 where I show the distinctions: https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4580594 )
--Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [note: "WHO" (vv.12-13); and at the "GREAT trumpet"] which Isaiah passage (esp. v.9) in turn corresponds with Romans 11:27 (plz see that verse) and both of these verses then in turn correspond with the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy (see esp. v.24b)... which prophecy is concerning "[... are DETERMINED UPON] THY [Daniel's] people, [AND UPON] THY [Daniel's] holy city"
(see again my Post #2 where I show the distinctions: https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4580594 )
--Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [note: "WHO" (vv.12-13); and at the "GREAT trumpet"] which Isaiah passage (esp. v.9) in turn corresponds with Romans 11:27 (plz see that verse) and both of these verses then in turn correspond with the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy (see esp. v.24b)... which prophecy is concerning "[... are DETERMINED UPON] THY [Daniel's] people, [AND UPON] THY [Daniel's] holy city"
I said this:
"The USA has been seeing this play out since last summer and continuing this year."
I initially thought you were from another country, but I could be wrong.
Are you a democrat, since you said "you all republicans"?
If you are, have you ever seen the democrat platform? Everything is anti-biblical. Everything.
"The USA has been seeing this play out since last summer and continuing this year."
I initially thought you were from another country, but I could be wrong.
Are you a democrat, since you said "you all republicans"?
If you are, have you ever seen the democrat platform? Everything is anti-biblical. Everything.
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Not "to the earth" (i.e. Rev19).
No. I said "the DOTL's ARRIVAL" does (i.e. the TRIB's ARRIVAL to unfold upon the earth, during 7 years: "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK" / "DARKNESS" [re: the "NIGHT WATCHES" and the "LAMPS LIT" issues])... ALL of the LIGHT BULBS will have already been "TAKEN UP / SNATCHED OUT" at that point (immediately prior)
No. I said "the DOTL's ARRIVAL" does (i.e. the TRIB's ARRIVAL to unfold upon the earth, during 7 years: "IN THE NIGHT" / "DARK" / "DARKNESS" [re: the "NIGHT WATCHES" and the "LAMPS LIT" issues])... ALL of the LIGHT BULBS will have already been "TAKEN UP / SNATCHED OUT" at that point (immediately prior)
It is the body that rests for resurrection because the spirit is departed from it and is in heaven with the Lord.
When we depart the body and are gathered to our people:
Psalm 119:74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.
I interpret the above verse to mean, when you arrive in heaven in spirit, those who are there before you, your people, are very glad to see you when you arrive.
And when new spirits arrive, you are just as glad:
Psalm 119:79 Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.
Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Philipians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (I don't entertain the "punctuation argument." Some people just can't believe and will come up with any argument. The Bible is translated perfectly according to God's will.)
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Acts 759: And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
I don't believe the doctrine of "soul sleep."
When we depart the body and are gathered to our people:
Psalm 119:74 They that fear thee will be glad when they see me; because I have hoped in thy word.
I interpret the above verse to mean, when you arrive in heaven in spirit, those who are there before you, your people, are very glad to see you when you arrive.
And when new spirits arrive, you are just as glad:
Psalm 119:79 Let those that fear thee turn unto me, and those that have known thy testimonies.
Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
Philipians 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (I don't entertain the "punctuation argument." Some people just can't believe and will come up with any argument. The Bible is translated perfectly according to God's will.)
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Acts 759: And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
I don't believe the doctrine of "soul sleep."
I believe the "2W" are ALSO INCLUDED in "the resurrection, the first" ("resurrection OF LIFE" / "resurrection OF THE JUST"), but scripture says of them, "and they stood upon their feet" (the word "resurrection" MEANS "to stand again") and at the time-slot of the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time completely distinct from when all others will be (and well-before the END of the Trib yrs).
How do you explain this??
["blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" Rev20:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-6.htm ... note that Rev20:4a (parallel Dan7:22) doesn't refer to the saints who've DIED; and 20:4b speaks only of those saints who've died in the SECOND HALF of the 7-Trib yrs (i.e. the LAST of the "saints" to be killed / martyred b/f Christ's RETURN), not every saint ever...]
How do you explain this??
["blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" Rev20:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-6.htm ... note that Rev20:4a (parallel Dan7:22) doesn't refer to the saints who've DIED; and 20:4b speaks only of those saints who've died in the SECOND HALF of the 7-Trib yrs (i.e. the LAST of the "saints" to be killed / martyred b/f Christ's RETURN), not every saint ever...]