Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled [/shall have taken place]" must necessarily INCLUDE the TWO time-lengthy items that v.24 had already just spoken of ("and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL..." [which second item, here, does not CONCLUDE until Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19])
Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Break point between the two questions.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Break point between the two questions.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
--ONE "SEE-then-FLEE" takes place in the 70ad events ("BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth PANGS, per Lk21:12 [vv.23,20]);
--the OTHER "SEE-then-FLEE" [Matt24:15,16,21] takes place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" [aka SEALS, within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, per Rev1:1] (i.e. in the "far-future" time-period [aka the middle of the 7-yr TRIB / 70th Week] leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19)
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The church is a part of the unified body of Christ. There is not a secret rapture for Israel. There's a single rapture for whoever has placed their faith in Christ and become one of God's children. Reading the old testament without regard to the new covenant, removed from all historical context, creates too many Biblical contradictions.
Believe it or not, the church will be gathered to Jesus immediately after the tribulation per Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2. Since the Bible does not contradict itself then passages like 1 Thessalonians 4, and other rapture verses, can be understood as referencing the time Jesus said He would return which is immediately after the tribulation.
The beautiful one-to-one correlation between Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess. 2:1 is not going away.
Believe it or not, the church will be gathered to Jesus immediately after the tribulation per Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2. Since the Bible does not contradict itself then passages like 1 Thessalonians 4, and other rapture verses, can be understood as referencing the time Jesus said He would return which is immediately after the tribulation.
The beautiful one-to-one correlation between Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess. 2:1 is not going away.
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Who said there was? Not me.
The believing remnant of Israel will be "gathered" (by ANGELS that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so), and gathered "ONE-by-ONE," at the END of the Trib yrs; NOT "raptured / SNATCHED [/harpazo'd G726]," which word [/event] pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]; and who will be caught up / SNATCHED away "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY" caught up "TOGETHER / AT THE SAME MOMENT"])
Israel was never promised "RAPTURE [...IN THE AIR]". No.
The believing remnant of Israel will be "gathered" (by ANGELS that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so), and gathered "ONE-by-ONE," at the END of the Trib yrs; NOT "raptured / SNATCHED [/harpazo'd G726]," which word [/event] pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]; and who will be caught up / SNATCHED away "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY" caught up "TOGETHER / AT THE SAME MOMENT"])
Israel was never promised "RAPTURE [...IN THE AIR]". No.
No. Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with 2Th2:8b the "MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia]"... not v.1 which ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will participate in (and be in His "presence" UP THERE, "TO the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR," i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"), when not "EVERY EYE [shall see Him]" coz not "EVERY EYE" will participate in the 2:1 event.
["the man of sin" will exist on the earth and DO all he is slated to do BETWEEN these two points in time (7 years'-worth)]
["the man of sin" will exist on the earth and DO all he is slated to do BETWEEN these two points in time (7 years'-worth)]
The following post goes along with my previous post ^ (Post #405 ^ , above):
Post #1620 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4542637
[and note, there are MORE of these "beg/mid/end" related passages than just the few I show in that post]
Post #1620 (different thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/5...ure-by-dr-john-f-walvoord.198357/post-4542637
[and note, there are MORE of these "beg/mid/end" related passages than just the few I show in that post]
It's good to post this stuff but many people are blinded to this simple and clear truth. As the passage says, there will have to be people who claim Christ has returned at the start of the Great Tribulation. There is going to be a pre-trib rapture but it will be a fake rapture and it will be done by the antichrist.
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@DWR (re: your Post #409), the "Two Witnesses" (after having been killed [/die]) are resurrected (and thereafter "ascend up into Heaven") at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, which is not at the END [/nor AFTER] the Tribulation.
So, obviously, according to 1Th4:16b "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" before BOTH aspects of the ONE BODY will be "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCHED AWAY] TOGETHER [AT THE SAME TIME]" (<--the DEAD IN Christ *AND* the we which are ALIVE and remain... BOTH components)
...so this is not what is happening at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" events (re: the "2W" only), and that point in time (re: them) is not at the END [nor 'AFTER'] the Trib, as Matt24:29-31 [/Isa27:[9],12-13] IS, you see... because before the END of the Trib, the [further] 7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial must take place (as well as all Vials 1-7) which lead UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19.
Do you imagine that the "2W" after they "ascend into Heaven," that they come back to the earth at some point, in order to take part in the "SNATCH [/rapture / caught up / harpazo - G726]" event? Coz the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will experience that, in the ONE "SNATCH-ACTION" TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]
So, obviously, according to 1Th4:16b "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" before BOTH aspects of the ONE BODY will be "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCHED AWAY] TOGETHER [AT THE SAME TIME]" (<--the DEAD IN Christ *AND* the we which are ALIVE and remain... BOTH components)
...so this is not what is happening at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" events (re: the "2W" only), and that point in time (re: them) is not at the END [nor 'AFTER'] the Trib, as Matt24:29-31 [/Isa27:[9],12-13] IS, you see... because before the END of the Trib, the [further] 7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial must take place (as well as all Vials 1-7) which lead UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19.
Do you imagine that the "2W" after they "ascend into Heaven," that they come back to the earth at some point, in order to take part in the "SNATCH [/rapture / caught up / harpazo - G726]" event? Coz the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will experience that, in the ONE "SNATCH-ACTION" TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]
Just the thought gave me the creeps!...Where'd all those people go?.... Who them?...Oh, yea... they were 'raptured,'....yea, that's what happened to them...
[note: ALL of Matt24 is telling of the things which FOLLOW "our Rapture [... IN THE AIR]" event
(and note: "our Rapture" event is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps turn Israel to their Messiah [/Jesus Christ])]^ and ONE of those "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs) is [when]: "...God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY [i.e. certain ones (not 100% of the ppl)] should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (in the TRIB yrs).
[the ac is not going to STAGE a false "rapture," he's going to "LIE" about the TRUE one... that just happened!]
[the ac is not going to STAGE a false "rapture," he's going to "LIE" about the TRUE one... that just happened!]
Paul (in 2Th1 & 2) is telling of the TWO *OPPOSITE* beliefs ppl will be coming to, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when those ppl are IN / WITHIN the Trib yrs [aka in "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY"]).
[note: ALL of Matt24 is telling of the things which FOLLOW "our Rapture [... IN THE AIR]" event (and note: "our Rapture" event is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps turn Israel to their Messiah [/Jesus Christ])]
[note: ALL of Matt24 is telling of the things which FOLLOW "our Rapture [... IN THE AIR]" event
(and note: "our Rapture" event is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps turn Israel to their Messiah [/Jesus Christ])]
Seriously tho,... and using Kirk Cameron to further his agenda
... that's just downright sinister Interesting. "A fake pre-trib rapture and it will be done by the anti-Christ."
It never even crossed my mind that that snti-Christ or Satan would be capable of some sort of fake rapture. You're onto something here.
The anti-Christ will probably be familiar with Christian rapture doctrine and, as people are being disappeared, he could possibly use the pre-trib rapture as leverage to explain away why people are 'disappearin", but in reality being martyred.
Wow.. mind-blowing. 🤯😥
It never even crossed my mind that that snti-Christ or Satan would be capable of some sort of fake rapture. You're onto something here.
The anti-Christ will probably be familiar with Christian rapture doctrine and, as people are being disappeared, he could possibly use the pre-trib rapture as leverage to explain away why people are 'disappearin", but in reality being martyred.
Wow.. mind-blowing. 🤯😥
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D
Why can you not just post as most of us do?
I read a lot, and have never seen people write as you do.
Not trying to offend you, but I just have a very difficult time understanding what you say.
Most of the time I do not understand at all so I tend to just skip your post.
By the way, you did not answer my question.
I read a lot, and have never seen people write as you do.
Not trying to offend you, but I just have a very difficult time understanding what you say.
Most of the time I do not understand at all so I tend to just skip your post.
By the way, you did not answer my question.
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And who is the bride? It's new Jerusalem. (Rev 21:1)
And according to Jesus, Upon the one who overcomes "I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God) "
If you don't overcome, then you won't get to be the bride. And to me, the 144k that are redeemed and have gone through trouble seem more fit to have the name of His bride than those of you wanting to get away from it as if you arrogantly presumed that you should be received by Him. If that arrogance is there, let it not be a stumbling block when persecution comes to you, lest you might curse God for not sparing you from trouble.
And according to Jesus, Upon the one who overcomes "I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God) "
If you don't overcome, then you won't get to be the bride. And to me, the 144k that are redeemed and have gone through trouble seem more fit to have the name of His bride than those of you wanting to get away from it as if you arrogantly presumed that you should be received by Him. If that arrogance is there, let it not be a stumbling block when persecution comes to you, lest you might curse God for not sparing you from trouble.
Do you believe the "resurrection" of US takes place at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe"... like this passage refers to?:
Revelation 11 -
"11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[Let the readers note: Revelation 8:13 says these "3 Woes" (this ^ passage speaking of the "2nd Woe") are connected with the 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets events"--So the "2 Witnesses'" resurrection (not to mention their "ascend into Heaven") is connected with the "2nd Woe [/6th Trumpet's events]"]
--Is that when "OUR" resurrection and rapture takes place, according to your viewpoint??
[full disclosure: I do NOT believe that is when our resurrection / rapture takes place]
--[or] do you believe the "2W" will be "resurrected" AGAIN (all over again) with "the DEAD IN Christ" that "SHALL RISE FIRST" just prior to when the "caught up together [/at the same time]" (i.e. RAPTURE event [G726 / 'SNATCH / harpazo']) takes place?
Your viewpoint makes no sense of all this (to me, anyway).
Revelation 11 -
"11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[Let the readers note: Revelation 8:13 says these "3 Woes" (this ^ passage speaking of the "2nd Woe") are connected with the 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets events"--So the "2 Witnesses'" resurrection (not to mention their "ascend into Heaven") is connected with the "2nd Woe [/6th Trumpet's events]"]
--Is that when "OUR" resurrection and rapture takes place, according to your viewpoint??
[full disclosure: I do NOT believe that is when our resurrection / rapture takes place]
--[or] do you believe the "2W" will be "resurrected" AGAIN (all over again) with "the DEAD IN Christ" that "SHALL RISE FIRST" just prior to when the "caught up together [/at the same time]" (i.e. RAPTURE event [G726 / 'SNATCH / harpazo']) takes place?
Your viewpoint makes no sense of all this (to me, anyway).