Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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TheDivineWatermark

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Luke 21:32
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Every use of This Generation means the generation of Jesus' day on earth.
Luke 21:32's "TILL ALL be fulfilled [/shall have taken place]" must necessarily INCLUDE the TWO time-lengthy items that v.24 had already just spoken of ("and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL..." [which second item, here, does not CONCLUDE until Christ's RETURN to the earth Rev19])
 

TheDivineWatermark

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15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Break point between the two questions.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
I had read (many years ago) the article at the link you'd provided in that post, from "the gospel coalition," and noted back then the numerous flaws in it... He doesn't seem to make ANY reference whatsoever to the "aod [singular / singular]" in Dan12:11 (that Jesus made reference to)... why? And he CONFLATES "the people OF [the prince that SHALL COME]" with "the prince THAT SHALL COME" himself, who himself is not present in the 70ad events... and all this is a matter of the "CHRONOLOGY" issues that this writer is completely MISSING / OVERLOOKING...

--ONE "SEE-then-FLEE" takes place in the 70ad events ("BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth PANGS, per Lk21:12 [vv.23,20]);
--the OTHER "SEE-then-FLEE" [Matt24:15,16,21] takes place SEQUENTIALLY AFTER "the beginning of birth PANGS" [aka SEALS, within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period, per Rev1:1] (i.e. in the "far-future" time-period [aka the middle of the 7-yr TRIB / 70th Week] leading UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19)
 

Runningman

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There isn't a "one-to-one correlation" between these two passages

(see again my Post #2 where I show the distinctions: https://christianchat.com/threads/j...rapture-stop-causing-fear.199566/post-4580594 )


--Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 [note: "WHO" (vv.12-13); and at the "GREAT trumpet"] which Isaiah passage (esp. v.9) in turn corresponds with Romans 11:27 (plz see that verse) and both of these verses then in turn correspond with the Daniel 9:24-27 prophecy (see esp. v.24b)... which prophecy is concerning "[... are DETERMINED UPON] THY [Daniel's] people, [AND UPON] THY [Daniel's] holy city"
The church is a part of the unified body of Christ. There is not a secret rapture for Israel. There's a single rapture for whoever has placed their faith in Christ and become one of God's children. Reading the old testament without regard to the new covenant, removed from all historical context, creates too many Biblical contradictions.

Believe it or not, the church will be gathered to Jesus immediately after the tribulation per Matthew 24 and 2 Thessalonians 2. Since the Bible does not contradict itself then passages like 1 Thessalonians 4, and other rapture verses, can be understood as referencing the time Jesus said He would return which is immediately after the tribulation.

The beautiful one-to-one correlation between Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess. 2:1 is not going away.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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There is not a secret rapture for Israel.
Who said there was? Not me.

The believing remnant of Israel will be "gathered" (by ANGELS that "HE SHALL SEND" to do so), and gathered "ONE-by-ONE," at the END of the Trib yrs; NOT "raptured / SNATCHED [/harpazo'd G726]," which word [/event] pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]; and who will be caught up / SNATCHED away "AS ONE" [the "ONE BODY" caught up "TOGETHER / AT THE SAME MOMENT"])



Israel was never promised "RAPTURE [...IN THE AIR]". No.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The beautiful one-to-one correlation between Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thess. 2:1 is not going away.
No. Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with 2Th2:8b the "MANIFESTATION of His presence [/parousia]"... not v.1 which ONLY "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will participate in (and be in His "presence" UP THERE, "TO the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR," i.e. "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM"), when not "EVERY EYE [shall see Him]" coz not "EVERY EYE" will participate in the 2:1 event. ;)

["the man of sin" will exist on the earth and DO all he is slated to do BETWEEN these two points in time (7 years'-worth)]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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ewq1938

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Just wanted to share with you all a fascinating discovery on "One will be taken and the other left" from MAT 24.

Below is from Shem Tob's Hebrew book of Matthew.

"40 Then if there will be two plowing in the field, ONE RIGHTEOUS AND THE OTHER EVIL, the one will be taken and the other left.

41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left. THIS IS BECAUSE THE ANGELS AT THE END OF THE WORLD WILL REMOVE THE STUMBLING BLOCKS FROM THE WORLD, AND WILL SEPARATE THE GOOD FROM THE EVIL

42 Therefore watch WITH ME because you do not know at what hour your Master is coming."​

It has a massive chunk not found in Greek Matthew, which is the passage that the two represent GOOD and EVIL, and that the ANGELS WILL COME TO SEPARATE THEM, which sounds like the harvest explained in Mat 13.

If the other one is evil, HOW, like the Pre-Trib supporters claim, COULD THIS EVIL ONE BE LEFT BEHIND for Persecution? This evil one would most likely persecute you and leave you poor.
It is correct that the one taken is the righteous who are taken up into the clouds in the rapture. It is the one left/rejected (that's what the Greek word means) who is left behind like the 5 foolish virgins, like the people in Sodom etc.
 

ewq1938

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It isn't me who's saying it. Look at Matthew 24:21-25:


21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before.

You don't see that this plainly states that there will be great tribulation and that people will be saying that Christ has returned?

Pause a moment and think about that. You say Jesus comes before the tribulation. Jesus is saying that people will be saying during that great tribulation He has arrived and to not believe them. That would definitely mean that Jesus has not returned yet.

Jesus does not return until after this very same period of tribulation He describes in this chapter
:

Matthew 24:29-31
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The problem with your exegesis is you have Jesus returning before the great tribulation and the Bible says that absolutely no where. Go back and read everything very carefully and slowly. Pre-trib doesn't exist.

It's good to post this stuff but many people are blinded to this simple and clear truth. As the passage says, there will have to be people who claim Christ has returned at the start of the Great Tribulation. There is going to be a pre-trib rapture but it will be a fake rapture and it will be done by the antichrist.
 

DWR

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I believe the "2W" are ALSO INCLUDED in "the resurrection, the first" ("resurrection OF LIFE" / "resurrection OF THE JUST"), but scripture says of them, "and they stood upon their feet" (the word "resurrection" MEANS "to stand again") and at the time-slot of the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time completely distinct from when all others will be (and well-before the END of the Trib yrs).

How do you explain this??



["blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART IN the resurrection, the first" Rev20:6 - https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/20-6.htm ... note that Rev20:4a (parallel Dan7:22) doesn't refer to the saints who've DIED; and 20:4b speaks only of those saints who've died in the SECOND HALF of the 7-Trib yrs (i.e. the LAST of the "saints" to be killed / martyred b/f Christ's RETURN), not every saint ever...]
OK!!!
First, thanks for responding.
I would love to respond to your post,
Do not mean to offend, But, I do not have a clue what you said.
 

Mem

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It's good to post this stuff but many people are blinded to this simple and clear truth. As the passage says, there will have to be people who claim Christ has returned at the start of the Great Tribulation. There is going to be a pre-trib rapture but it will be a fake rapture and it will be done by the antichrist.
:eek: Just the thought gave me the creeps!

:cautious:...Where'd all those people go?....

:sneaky: Who them?...Oh, yea... they were 'raptured,'....yea, that's what happened to them...
 

TheDivineWatermark

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@DWR (re: your Post #409), the "Two Witnesses" (after having been killed [/die]) are resurrected (and thereafter "ascend up into Heaven") at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, which is not at the END [/nor AFTER] the Tribulation.

So, obviously, according to 1Th4:16b "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" before BOTH aspects of the ONE BODY will be "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCHED AWAY] TOGETHER [AT THE SAME TIME]" (<--the DEAD IN Christ *AND* the we which are ALIVE and remain... BOTH components)

...so this is not what is happening at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" events (re: the "2W" only), and that point in time (re: them) is not at the END [nor 'AFTER'] the Trib, as Matt24:29-31 [/Isa27:[9],12-13] IS, you see... because before the END of the Trib, the [further] 7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial must take place (as well as all Vials 1-7) which lead UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19.




Do you imagine that the "2W" after they "ascend into Heaven," that they come back to the earth at some point, in order to take part in the "SNATCH [/rapture / caught up / harpazo - G726]" event? Coz the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will experience that, in the ONE "SNATCH-ACTION" TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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:eek: Just the thought gave me the creeps!

:cautious:...Where'd all those people go?....

:sneaky: Who them?...Oh, yea... they were 'raptured,'....yea, that's what happened to them...
Paul (in 2Th1 & 2) is telling of the TWO *OPPOSITE* beliefs ppl will be coming to, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when those ppl are IN / WITHIN the Trib yrs [aka in "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY"]).




[note: ALL of Matt24 is telling of the things which FOLLOW "our Rapture [... IN THE AIR]" event ;) (and note: "our Rapture" event is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps turn Israel to their Messiah [/Jesus Christ])]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ and ONE of those "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs) is [when]: "...God shall SEND TO THEM great delusion, IN ORDER THAT THEY [i.e. certain ones (not 100% of the ppl)] should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" (in the TRIB yrs).




[the ac is not going to STAGE a false "rapture," he's going to "LIE" about the TRUE one... that just happened!]
 

Mem

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Paul (in 2Th1 & 2) is telling of the TWO *OPPOSITE* beliefs ppl will be coming to, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when those ppl are IN / WITHIN the Trib yrs [aka in "the DOTL" / "IN THAT DAY"]).




[note: ALL of Matt24 is telling of the things which FOLLOW "our Rapture [... IN THE AIR]" event ;) (and note: "our Rapture" event is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that helps turn Israel to their Messiah [/Jesus Christ])]
That's what she said :geek:

:giggle:

Seriously tho,... and using Kirk Cameron to further his agenda :whistle:... that's just downright sinister :(
 

Runningman

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It's good to post this stuff but many people are blinded to this simple and clear truth. As the passage says, there will have to be people who claim Christ has returned at the start of the Great Tribulation. There is going to be a pre-trib rapture but it will be a fake rapture and it will be done by the antichrist.
Interesting. "A fake pre-trib rapture and it will be done by the anti-Christ."

It never even crossed my mind that that snti-Christ or Satan would be capable of some sort of fake rapture. You're onto something here.

The anti-Christ will probably be familiar with Christian rapture doctrine and, as people are being disappeared, he could possibly use the pre-trib rapture as leverage to explain away why people are 'disappearin", but in reality being martyred.

Wow.. mind-blowing. 🤯😥
 

DWR

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@DWR (re: your Post #409), the "Two Witnesses" (after having been killed [/die]) are resurrected (and thereafter "ascend up into Heaven") at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, which is not at the END [/nor AFTER] the Tribulation.

So, obviously, according to 1Th4:16b "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" before BOTH aspects of the ONE BODY will be "CAUGHT UP [/SNATCHED AWAY] TOGETHER [AT THE SAME TIME]" (<--the DEAD IN Christ *AND* the we which are ALIVE and remain... BOTH components)

...so this is not what is happening at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" events (re: the "2W" only), and that point in time (re: them) is not at the END [nor 'AFTER'] the Trib, as Matt24:29-31 [/Isa27:[9],12-13] IS, you see... because before the END of the Trib, the [further] 7th Trumpet / 3rd Woe / 1st Vial must take place (as well as all Vials 1-7) which lead UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19.




Do you imagine that the "2W" after they "ascend into Heaven," that they come back to the earth at some point, in order to take part in the "SNATCH [/rapture / caught up / harpazo - G726]" event? Coz the ENTIRE "Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will experience that, in the ONE "SNATCH-ACTION" TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]
Why can you not just post as most of us do?
I read a lot, and have never seen people write as you do.
Not trying to offend you, but I just have a very difficult time understanding what you say.
Most of the time I do not understand at all so I tend to just skip your post.
By the way, you did not answer my question.
 
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Interesting. "A fake pre-trib rapture and it will be done by the anti-Christ."

It never even crossed my mind that that snti-Christ or Satan would be capable of some sort of fake rapture. You're onto something here.

The anti-Christ will probably be familiar with Christian rapture doctrine and, as people are being disappeared, he could possibly use the pre-trib rapture as leverage to explain away why people are 'disappearin", but in reality being martyred.

Wow.. mind-blowing. 🤯😥
Why would you think they can't reproduce it?

Think about all the "alien" conspiracy talks. It's easy to capture a human from a spaceship with the right technology, and the words are that the "aliens" are in fact US space force.
 
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Psssst.....the bride aint on earth no more.
And who is the bride? It's new Jerusalem. (Rev 21:1)

And according to Jesus, Upon the one who overcomes "I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God) "

If you don't overcome, then you won't get to be the bride. And to me, the 144k that are redeemed and have gone through trouble seem more fit to have the name of His bride than those of you wanting to get away from it as if you arrogantly presumed that you should be received by Him. If that arrogance is there, let it not be a stumbling block when persecution comes to you, lest you might curse God for not sparing you from trouble.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Why can you not just post as most of us do?
I read a lot, and have never seen people write as you do.
Not trying to offend you, but I just have a very difficult time understanding what you say.
Most of the time I do not understand at all so I tend to just skip your post.
By the way, you did not answer my question.
Do you believe the "resurrection" of US takes place at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe"... like this passage refers to?:

Revelation 11 -
"11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

[Let the readers note: Revelation 8:13 says these "3 Woes" (this ^ passage speaking of the "2nd Woe") are connected with the 5th, 6th, and 7th Trumpets events"--So the "2 Witnesses'" resurrection (not to mention their "ascend into Heaven") is connected with the "2nd Woe [/6th Trumpet's events]"]


--Is that when "OUR" resurrection and rapture takes place, according to your viewpoint??

[full disclosure: I do NOT believe that is when our resurrection / rapture takes place]


--[or] do you believe the "2W" will be "resurrected" AGAIN (all over again) with "the DEAD IN Christ" that "SHALL RISE FIRST" just prior to when the "caught up together [/at the same time]" (i.e. RAPTURE event [G726 / 'SNATCH / harpazo']) takes place?




Your viewpoint makes no sense of all this (to me, anyway).