Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
Jesus said " about to come upon the whole earth"
I believe you are trying to cite Rev 3:10, which is directed at one of twelve churches.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10 KJV


Jesus was plain in the 10 day dynamic and the 7 yr gt. That one about to come upon the entire earth had a pretrib removal promise.
Three kinds of removals:
1) Away from trial but still in the world
2) "into the air"
3) the sleep of death awaiting the judgement day

If your position is that all elect living Christians are raptured, which passages are you presenting to justify your position?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Jesus used 2 illustrations showing ones left behind.
Both groups point to righteous being left behind.
Those are the trib saints. Millions of them.

They are most all martyred and some will surely love their lives so much they take the mark.
Well, those who do love their lives and worship the beast and receive his mark, would be not be the tribulation saints. I was pulling from the following scripture:

"They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Well, those who do love their lives and worship the beast and receive his mark, would be not be the tribulation saints. I was pulling from the following scripture:

"They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."
Could be 100%
Most likely not.

Peter comes to mind.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I believe you are trying to cite Rev 3:10, which is directed at one of twelve churches.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10 KJV




Three kinds of removals:
1) Away from trial but still in the world
2) "into the air"
3) the sleep of death awaiting the judgement day

If your position is that all elect living Christians are raptured, which passages are you presenting to justify your position?
"""I believe you are trying to cite Rev 3:10, which is directed at one of twelve churches.
"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10 KJV"""

We both referenced it.
I believe it.
You?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I believe you are trying to cite Rev 3:10, which is directed at one of twelve churches.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10 KJV




Three kinds of removals:
1) Away from trial but still in the world
2) "into the air"
3) the sleep of death awaiting the judgement day

If your position is that all elect living Christians are raptured, which passages are you presenting to justify your position?
Greek has "out of"
ek,...G1537.....Prep...OUT

" out of" is not "in it"
You trying to make "out of" into "in it" ?

My position is bible and making you go against it
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I believe you are trying to cite Rev 3:10, which is directed at one of twelve churches.

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." - Revelation 3:10 KJV




Three kinds of removals:
1) Away from trial but still in the world
2) "into the air"
3) the sleep of death awaiting the judgement day

If your position is that all elect living Christians are raptured, which passages are you presenting to justify your position?
Firstfruits are already raptured.

Main harvest next.

All " to heaven" ...just as firstfruits were and the last group during the gt in rev 14 vividly depicted.

All bible
No additives or impurities.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Well, those who do love their lives and worship the beast and receive his mark, would be not be the tribulation saints. I was pulling from the following scripture:

"They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death."
I would also add that the "they" in that verse is ones in heaven.
So yes that of course is 100 % since they are already there.
"they" is not the entire group "they" are taken from on earth.

Could be....but not plausible.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Pretrib rapture gained movement in the 1800s. Pretrib rapture is factually a new age concept.
When all of the information is utilized, then the correct conclusion is that the gathering of the church takes place pre-tribulation i.e. prior to the onset of God's wrath! However, the on-going problem is that, people come in with partial information and distort or circumvent the truth. The underlying principle is one of those that is neglected:

"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

The plagues of wrath that are coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unprecedented, with the majority of the earth's population being decimated and all human government dismantled.

The punishment (God's wrath) that the Lord suffered on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. And taking into consideration the severity of God's coming wrath with no where on earth to escape to. And the fact that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Then believers within the church must be removed from the earth prior to said wrath. Then when you bring in Revelation 17:14 which reveals the church (the called, chosen and faithful followers) returning with the Lord out of heaven to the earth. And which is further stated in Revelation 19:6-8 with the bride/church being at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven. And then in verse 14 shows the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to the earth wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses. Then the correct conclusion is that the church is gathered prior to the onset of God's wrath and not after. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you must already be in heaven.

The other error in this is that those who believe in a mid or post gathering of the church, would be putting the church through the same punishment as the rest of the Christ rejecting world. Yet scripture states that we do not belong to the night or to the darkness so that this day (the time of God's wrath) should take us by surprise.

If we are watching and anticipating the Lord's return to gather us according to His promise, then when that voice that sounds like a trumpet calls us up, we will have already been watching and anticipating His return like those in the parable waiting for their master to return from a banquet and will be able to open the door for Him as soon as He knocks.

In writing to Titus, Paul referred to the Lord's appearing and our being gathered as the Blessed Hope. After he gave his detailed account of the living church being changed immortal and glorified and caught up, he said for us to "comfort each other with those words." That said, if the church were to be gathered after God's wrath, then it would not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort each other with those words and that because we would be subject to the same wrath that the wicked would be going through.

Other common errors made by expositors is not discerning that there is a difference between the event of church being gathered vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, when these are two different events, with different purposes.

The other errors include not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

They also pay no attention to the fact that scripture states that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." - Rom.5:9

"For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. - 1 Thess.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thess.5:9

Instead of believing the scriptures above, the post-tribbers will reach into their bag of false apologetics and will say "Oh, the wrath that is being spoken of is the wrath at the great white throne judgment," attempting to further make us believe that believers are not appointed to suffer that wrath, but that we will suffer the wrath that takes place on earth. The truth of the matter is that, believers in Christ are not to suffer any of God's wrath at all, because the Lord already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

They also don't understand that there is a difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have as a result of our faith in Him vs. the unprecedented direct wrath of God that will be poured out upon the whole earth.

They also don't take into consideration that the word Ekklesia translated as church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3, it is the only word used.

They also are not able to discern between scriptures regarding the gathering of the church vs. the scriptures regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, citing them as being the same.

I could go on and on, but instead of addressing these facts, they are immediately cocked and ready to fire back with distortions and to circumvent these truths.

Another amazing truth supporting a pre-tribulation gathering is that, as a punishment for anyone who adds to the words of the prophesies in the book of Revelation, God will add to that person the plagues of wrath listed in this book. Yet the post-tribbers would have the living church go through those plagues of wrath for no reason at all!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Greek has "out of"
ek,...G1537.....Prep...OUT

" out of" is not "in it"
You trying to make "out of" into "in it" ?

My position is bible and making you go against it
Well said! The word 'ek' is correctly translated as 'out of,' i.e. I will keep you out of the hour of trial.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
"""Please kindly show me the exact words about "shall be caught up INTO HEAVEN TO...". I just can't find them."""

The above is my challenge to the poster who claims that the rapture means people are "caught up INTO HEAVEN TO...".

They , the church, are there in heaven during the trib.
OK, can YOU show the exact words about being "caught upo into heaven"? The other poster hasn't done that.

Jesus declared it at the last supper.
Did He, now? Really? What specific verse or verses say so?

Rev 19 has them there as well as they are called the wife....IN HEAVEN.
Nice try. But the Greek refutes you. The word is "gyne" and means "woman". It can refer to a bride or wife. But the basic word is MOSTLY translated as "woman" in the NT.

Rev 14 has JESUS SITTING ON A CLOUD, SICKLE IN HAND, GATHERING HIS PEOPLE TO HEAVEN, NO HORSES, NO POSTRIB UTURN.

You get owned by all that.
No, you are the one who owns all your mistakes. Where does Rev 14 have Jesus "gathering His people to heaven"? The other poster was using Rev 19 to claim that. You 2 need to get on the same page.

Anyhoo, you own your own false ideas. Now, try to prove any of them. From Scripture.

And I don't "own" the post-trib rapture. The Bible does. And says so clearly. God owns His own Word.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
"""I agree. Pretrib rapture is a new age concept"""

We own the debate.
No, you own your unbiblical ideas.

You can not go toe to toe.
Just bluster.

That is why you carry the interaction into the extra biblical.
Well, finally admitting that your theories about a pre trib rapture are "extra biblical". Good for you.

In fact you have no verses at all.
Said the poster who himself has no verses at all.

And must ignore or reject the verse that so very clearly proves the rapture occurs at the Second Advent in 2 Thess 2:1.

Anyone is free to see for themselves. The verse doesn't need explaining.

And NONE of the pretribbers will take up my challenge to insert the words that "coming" and "gathering" mean in that verse to show it can't refer to the Second Advent and rapture.

Why won't anyone take my challenge. Because they can't offer different words that fit the context or any other part of Scripture.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
The bible says of the " tribulation saints" that they overcame by the blood and their testimony and loved mot their lives unto death.
Very plain they were arrested, invoked their "pedigree",and the blood of Jesus, and were martyred.
You have no case at all for a postrib rapture.
lol. It is precisely THESE martyrs that are resurrected after the trib. your unbiblical view demands splitting the rapture into stages.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
[QUOTE="Absolutely, post: 4602614, member: 272916"We both referenced it.
I believe it.
You?[/QUOTE]
Do you believe 2 Thess 2:1?

If you do, when please take my challenge and put in ( ) the words to show what "coming" means and "gathering" means.

Thank you.

If you don't believe that the verse is about the Second Advent and rapture, but you can't find any words to substitute for those words, please just man up and admit that you can't figure out the verse. That it makes no sense to you, so you are ignoring it.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
All bible
No additives or impurities.
Your statement is blatantly false, since you won't deal with 2 Thess 2:1.

Either you believe that 2 Thess 2:1 mentions the Second Advent and rapture, or you don't believe that.

So since you don't believe that, why don't you show us what you think it does refer to?
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
When all of the information is utilized, then the correct conclusion is that the gathering of the church takes place pre-tribulation
What "information"? No one has yet quoted any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

However, the on-going problem is that, people come in with partial information and stort or circumvent the truth.
The truth is that 2 Thess 2:1 shows the rapture at the Second Advent.

How about taking my challenge and substituting the words "coming" and "gathering" for whatever thing you think it being referenced?
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Well said! The word 'ek' is correctly translated as 'out of,' i.e. I will keep you out of the hour of trial.
OK, now explain how God kept the Israelites OUT FROM the 10 plauges, all the while STILL IN Egypt.

Keep in mind a number of the 10 plagues are at least similar to some of the judgments in the Trib.

Pretribbers seem to think God must have forgotten how He was able to keep the Israelites safe WHILE IN Egypt but now figures He must take all believers off the earth before the Trib.

Sad.

God is omnipotent. He is not limited in what He does.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
When all of the information is utilized, then the correct conclusion is that the gathering of the church takes place pre-tribulation i.e. prior to the onset of God's wrath! However, the on-going problem is that, people come in with partial information and distort or circumvent the truth. The underlying principle is one of those that is neglected:

"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

The plagues of wrath that are coming upon the earth via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be unprecedented, with the majority of the earth's population being decimated and all human government dismantled.

The punishment (God's wrath) that the Lord suffered on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. And taking into consideration the severity of God's coming wrath with no where on earth to escape to. And the fact that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Then believers within the church must be removed from the earth prior to said wrath. Then when you bring in Revelation 17:14 which reveals the church (the called, chosen and faithful followers) returning with the Lord out of heaven to the earth. And which is further stated in Revelation 19:6-8 with the bride/church being at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven. And then in verse 14 shows the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to the earth wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses. Then the correct conclusion is that the church is gathered prior to the onset of God's wrath and not after. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, you must already be in heaven.

The other error in this is that those who believe in a mid or post gathering of the church, would be putting the church through the same punishment as the rest of the Christ rejecting world. Yet scripture states that we do not belong to the night or to the darkness so that this day (the time of God's wrath) should take us by surprise.

If we are watching and anticipating the Lord's return to gather us according to His promise, then when that voice that sounds like a trumpet calls us up, we will have already been watching and anticipating His return like those in the parable waiting for their master to return from a banquet and will be able to open the door for Him as soon as He knocks.

In writing to Titus, Paul referred to the Lord's appearing and our being gathered as the Blessed Hope. After he gave his detailed account of the living church being changed immortal and glorified and caught up, he said for us to "comfort each other with those words." That said, if the church were to be gathered after God's wrath, then it would not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort each other with those words and that because we would be subject to the same wrath that the wicked would be going through.

Other common errors made by expositors is not discerning that there is a difference between the event of church being gathered vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, when these are two different events, with different purposes.

The other errors include not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath.

They also pay no attention to the fact that scripture states that believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

"Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God." - Rom.5:9

"For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. - 1 Thess.1:10

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thess.5:9

Instead of believing the scriptures above, the post-tribbers will reach into their bag of false apologetics and will say "Oh, the wrath that is being spoken of is the wrath at the great white throne judgment," attempting to further make us believe that believers are not appointed to suffer that wrath, but that we will suffer the wrath that takes place on earth. The truth of the matter is that, believers in Christ are not to suffer any of God's wrath at all, because the Lord already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

They also don't understand that there is a difference between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have as a result of our faith in Him vs. the unprecedented direct wrath of God that will be poured out upon the whole earth.

They also don't take into consideration that the word Ekklesia translated as church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3, it is the only word used.

They also are not able to discern between scriptures regarding the gathering of the church vs. the scriptures regarding the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, citing them as being the same.

I could go on and on, but instead of addressing these facts, they are immediately cocked and ready to fire back with distortions and to circumvent these truths.

Another amazing truth supporting a pre-tribulation gathering is that, as a punishment for anyone who adds to the words of the prophesies in the book of Revelation, God will add to that person the plagues of wrath listed in this book. Yet the post-tribbers would have the living church go through those plagues of wrath for no reason at all!
the pretrib position is continually reinforced with new discoveries and revelation. I think you and I are in about 90% agreement on most all points of interest.

at this hour we are closer still to the rapture.

i think it will be timed in the feasts. Jewish feasts.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
the pretrib position is continually reinforced with new discoveries and revelation.
Well, thank you for your revealing comment. The ONLY WAY to come up with the pretrib position is ADDING to Scripture "with NEW discoveries and revelation". Wow.

The only problem with that bit of info is that it is VERBOTEN to ADD to Scripture. Revelation 22 says so.

So, it seems you are saying that God is speaking directly to you, while at the same time NOT speaking to other believers.

The height of arrogance.

at this hour we are closer still to the rapture.
Just read Rev 6. It seems the first 3 horsemen are already in play.

i think it will be timed in the feasts. Jewish feasts.
So, did God tell you that?
 
Jul 18, 2021
33
5
8
God has already given revelation to select individuals all over the world about most every major event endtime through dreams visions and power from the holy spirit like He did bible prophets. He has given them bits and pieces but never one person everything. Cause Bible says He gives to prophets “in part” but not whole. But the confirmations and other revelations given to them makes most of the whole.

Acts 2:17
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

God showed them there is a prewrath rapture. He also showed them there is more than one rapture resulting in multiple harvests. Barley, wheat, and grape harvest. The 144k are raptured and the bride of Christ is raptured prewrath. The wedding guests are raptured after the wrath begins. It was shown select people will be visited by Jesus Himself and given 40 days of testing to be part of wedding guests. Probably why they would know to watch (2nd or 3rd watch) after the first rapture had hAppened because Jesus tells them if they endure to watch for Him.

Luke 12:38
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find themso, blessed are those servants.

It was found as Jesus says all who get saved in any harvest is chosen by God not man himself. And if chosen they will be saved and not fail because God controls everything that happens and preserves them.
 
Jun 12, 2021
416
91
28
God has already given revelation to select individuals all over the world about most every major event endtime through dreams visions and power from the holy spirit like He did bible prophets. He has given them bits and pieces but never one person everything. Cause Bible says He gives to prophets “in part” but not whole. But the confirmations and other revelations given to them makes most of the whole.

Acts 2:17
In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

God showed them there is a prewrath rapture. He also showed them there is more than one rapture resulting in multiple harvests. Barley, wheat, and grape harvest. The 144k are raptured and the bride of Christ is raptured prewrath. The wedding guests are raptured after the wrath begins. It was shown select people will be visited by Jesus Himself and given 40 days of testing to be part of wedding guests. Probably why they would know to watch (2nd or 3rd watch) after the first rapture had hAppened because Jesus tells them if they endure to watch for Him.

Luke 12:38
And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find themso, blessed are those servants.

It was found as Jesus says all who get saved in any harvest is chosen by God not man himself. And if chosen they will be saved and not fail because God controls everything that happens and preserves them.
prewrath is mid trib. God's word shows its amillennialism.