FreeGrace2 said:
What "information"? No one has yet quoted any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
I continue to quote it from John 14:1-3 and you continue to reject it!
I absolutely DO reject your misunderstanding of those verses. There is NO context for the trib or rapture at all.
Jesus' words were said BEFORE He died. He was speaking of returning AFTER His death, which did occur. He did come back.
1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me.
2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
My study Bible has this title at the beginning of ch 14: Jesus comforts His disciples
Jesus was comforting His disciples about where they would be when they died (v.2). Jesus said nothing about the Trib, or rapture, as you continue to presume.
The key is that v.3 says NOTHING about a rapture.
And that continues to be the problem for pretribbers. NO verses that show raptured people being taken to heaven.
You're like little kids putting their fingers in their ears, closing their eyes while loudly saying "la, la, la, la ...." in order to block out the truth.
Pretribers don't have the truth when it comes to the rapture. NO verses showing Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. And John 14:1-3 clearly doesn't either. But it's all you have. And it fails to support your claim.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 combined with 1 Corinthians 15 states that dead will be raised immortal and glorified, with the living being transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The promise in John 14:1-3 has the Lord going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and the promise to come back to get us to take us there, i.e. to take us to those places in the Father's house. Then you have Paul supporting this by the following scripture:
"But our citizenship is in heaven, and we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables Him to subject all things to Himself, will transform our lowly bodies to be like His glorious body."
By the way, the last part of the scripture above is what is stated in 1 Cor.15 when the the bodies of the dead and living in Christ are transformed immortal and glorified.
Once again, there is NOTHING here about Jesus taking raptured believers to heaven. Zero.
And, 2 Thess 2:1 DOES show the rapture occuring at the Second Advent. So who's denying the truth now?
Please take my challenge with the verse by quoting it and putting in ( ) what "coming" and "gathering" refers to.
No pretribber has done that.
The day that Paul is talking about is not the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him. But is what follows, which is "The Day of the Lord" which is the time of God's wrath. Paul was saying that the proof that "The Day of the Lord" had already come is when the apostasy occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
There is no challenge here:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him"
1 Thessalonians 4:16 states that "the Lord himself will descend from heaven," which supported by the fact that in John 14:1-3 He said that He would come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house.
There are two elements there:
* The coming of our Lord Jesus
* Our being gathered to Him
When you read this, you must always keep in mind that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. No matter which way you slice it, by having the church gathered when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God.
That last seven years of wrath are specific to God fulfilling that last seven years of the decree that was given to Israel and the pouring out His wrath on a wicked Christ rejecting world and not for those who have already believed in His Son. People try to cushion this by saying that God protects the church during the time of His wrath. Those who claim this have no idea of the severity and magnitude of said wrath, else they would not make that claim.
You still have not responded to the fact that Rev.17:14, 19:6-8, 14 shows the church/bride following the Lord out of heaven.
By your belief and teaching, you and others cannot be looking for the imminent return of the Lord, but for the completion of God's wrath first. Where we on the other hand, are looking for the imminent return of the Lord i.e. prior to God's wrath. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a road map, knowing that Jesus cannot return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, which completes God's wrath.
It is sad that you do not honor the Lord by recognizing that He satisfied God's wrath on our behalf and thereby teach that we go through it.[/QUOTE]