Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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FreeGrace2 said:
I was hoping you would take my challenge and quote the verse and put in ( ) the words you thing "coming" and "gathering" mean, so everyone will know what you think the verse means.

So far, you haven't done so.

I wish people would quit saying that, because as of yet, no one has.


Hold on a minute. Where in this passage in 1 Thess 4 do you even find the mention of heaven? It's not there. What you've bolded doesn't refer to heaven anyway. You think heaven needs or has "air"? The clouds and air refer clearly to earth's atmosphere.

Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere with all the dead saints, and raptures up the living saints.

In fact, the ONLY VERSE that indicates when all this occurs is 2 Thess 2:1.


You have NO verse to justify your words "the previously raptured ones".

What you are doing is conflating different passages that can't be joined.


Amen! This is where Jesus prepares to descend to earth, which is the SECOND ADVENT, with all the dead saints already in heaven.

You didn't meet my challenge. The challenge was to quote 2 Thess 2:1 and put in ( ) your understanding of what the words "coming" and "gathered" mean to you. So I will see how you understand that verse.

Here's my take on it:

Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Now your turn. If "coming" and "gathered" don't refer to the Second Advent and the rapture, then what do they refer to?
The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven before the Second Coming(see Rev 19). The Church does not miss it's own wedding. Your Post-Trib Rapture speculation is absurd.

Meeting your challenges is not on my to-do list. I am simply trying to clear things up for all those you have been befixed and befuddled with your convoluted imaginations.
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
I was hoping you would take my challenge and quote the verse and put in ( ) the words you thing "coming" and "gathering" mean, so everyone will know what you think the verse means.
The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven before the Second Coming(see Rev 19). The Church does not miss it's own wedding.
The wording in Rev 19 shows what is about to occur. Not what IS occurring.

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

You're probably not going to like my explanation, but here goes:
v.7 the bolded words don't indicate is occurring but what is about to occur. Both "has come" and "has made herself ready" are in the aorist indicative. It's a presentation of assertion. iow, it's now here. And the Bride (those already dead in heaven) are ready for it.
It says nothing about the wedding occurring.
v.8 the bolded words indicate what was the custom in Jesus' day. See Matt 22:11 - “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes."
v.9 speaks of who has been invited. If the wedding was going to take place in heaven, this is weird wording. It would have said something like "blessed are those who are AT the wedding".

So v.8 only indicates that the guests (already dead saints in heaven) were given the proper clothing for the wedding supper.
And v.9 speaks of who has been invited. Not who is there.

And Rev 20:4 clearly shows that there will be trib martyrs who will be resurrected in the FIRST resurrection and rule with Christ for the Millennium. If the wedding supper already occurs in heaven, all these martyrs will MISS OUT on the wedding supper.

Instead, Jesus brings all the prepared Bride with Him when he resurrects their bodies and raptures the living believers. This occurs at the Second Advent.

You have no verses that show Jesus taking the resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

Acts 3:21 says that Jesus remains in heaven until the times of restoration.

1 Cor 15:23 shows that "those who belong to Christ" are resurrected as a group, not as in different stages, times, etc.
But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The key here is "each in turn". And only 2 groups are noted: Christ as firstfruits, and then "WHEN He comes, those who belong to Him". That would include believers from Adam on. As a group.

John 5:29 says there are 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

Rev 20:6 shows two resurrections as well.

Pretrib rapture theory must divide up the resurrection of believers into stages or groups, yet there is nothing in Scripture to support such a thing.

Your Post-Trib Rapture speculation is absurd.
2 Thess 2:1 isn't speculation. Not hardly. To say the verse that refutes your theory is absurd is, well frankly, absurd itself.

Meeting your challenges is not on my to-do list. I am simply trying to clear things up for all those you have been befixed and befuddled with your convoluted imaginations.
Of course it's not on your to-do list. You would have to admit that you can't re-define either "coming" or "gathering" to mean something other than what is clear; the Second Advent and rapture. They occur together.
 
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The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven before the Second Coming(see Rev 19). The Church does not miss it's own wedding. Your Post-Trib Rapture speculation is absurd.
If the marriage supper in Heaven occurs before the second coming of Christ, guess what? All of the living and breathing saints of God's church on Earth just missed their promised wedding supper. Your interpretation is wrong. It will have to be some point post-second coming of Christ, post-tribulation rapture, post-resurrection.

Meeting your challenges is not on my to-do list. I am simply trying to clear things up for all those you have been befixed and befuddled with your convoluted imaginations.
You didn't clear anything up.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven before the Second Coming(see Rev 19). The Church does not miss it's own wedding.

You have the Christians on Earth during the Great Tribulation missing the wedding. Obviously no wedding can happen until ALL Christians can attend it. That's why the rapture and wedding is after the end of the Great Tribulation.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Meeting your challenges is not on my to-do list. I am simply trying to clear things up for all those you have been befixed and befuddled with your convoluted imaginations.

Pretriibers have no supportive scriptures but are full of personal insults. No surprise.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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RAPTURE > MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN> SECOND COMING TO EARTH

Those who miss the RAPTURE will go through the TRIBULATION ON EARTH

1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We see they shall be caught up into Heaven to......

Revelation
19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed [are] they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb
. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The previously raptured ones have been arrayed in fine white linen, attended the marriage supper, and are now ready to return to Earth with Christ at His Second Coming...

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
19:12 His eyes [were] as a flame of fire, and on his head [were] many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
19:14 And the armies [which were] in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron:
and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
 
May 22, 2020
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FreeGrace2 said:
Right. There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

The phrase "together they shall ASCEND into" isn't found in the Bible.

There are no verses that show Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And no verses say that resurrected and raptured believers will ASCEND at all.

The verses do say that they shall be with the Lord forever. Nothing about ascending or going to heaven, as is so commonly presumed.

No games...i presented the concept i did not quote the exact words.
  1. 1 THESSALONIANS 4:16 KJV "For the Lord himself shall descend ...
    www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1-Thessalonians-4-16
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Spend some time in the Bible.
 
May 22, 2020
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Gotcha. You were paraphrasing. That's ok to do that sometimes, but other versions are like paraphrases of the 1611 KJV so it can be unclear if those are your words or the words of a different Bible version.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV)
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

These sleeping saints will God bring with Jesus at the time Jesus descends from heaven, with a shout, at the last trump? It's tempting to assume the sleeping saints were in heaven already, but the text doesn't reveal where they came from, only that God brings them with Jesus.

The reason so much disagreement and con·tro·ver·sy in Bible discussion because the new age religion folks have slanted the meaning by using different words...just enough....in the new versions......to cause arguments.
 
May 22, 2020
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The Marriage Supper occurs in Heaven before the Second Coming(see Rev 19). The Church does not miss it's own wedding. Your Post-Trib Rapture speculation is absurd.

Meeting your challenges is not on my to-do list. I am simply trying to clear things up for all those you have been befixed and befuddled with your convoluted imaginations.
I have always been under the understanding that the marriage supper occurs after the rapture bringing all saved to attend. If this is a conflict I will look it up.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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I have always been under the understanding that the marriage supper occurs after the rapture bringing all saved to attend.
This is correct. Those who miss the Rapture will also miss the Marriage Supper.:( This is what the we see in Revelation 19.
 
May 22, 2020
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WOW...fear is created by falsely interpreting scripture that we Born Again Christians will go thru the trib. period.
The Bible says..."I shall save you from the hour which shall come upon all the earth"....speaking to the members of God's church...Christians.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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RAPTURE > MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN> SECOND COMING TO EARTH
You left something out:

RAPTURE > MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN> SECOND COMING TO EARTH> CHRISTIANS ON EARTH MISS THE WEDDING AND NOW ARE IN LIMBO??

That sounds about right for the errant pre-trib doctrine.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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WOW...fear is created by falsely interpreting scripture that we Born Again Christians will go thru the trib. period.
The Bible says..."I shall save you from the hour which shall come upon all the earth"....speaking to the members of God's church...Christians.

That was said to ONE CHURCH. He also said this to another:

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have TRIBULATION ten days : be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
 

oyster67

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After the 1000 years, Satan will be loosed for a season and have a following for a short time.
 

oyster67

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TRIBULATION ten days
Apparently this is not the 7 Year Tribulation we have been discussing. We all have tribulations now and then, but lets not use them to muddy the waters in this discussion.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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WOW...fear is created by falsely interpreting scripture that we Born Again Christians will go thru the trib. period.
The Bible says..."I shall save you from the hour which shall come upon all the earth"....speaking to the members of God's church...Christians.
Context doesn't fit for the general church. That is to the church of Philadelphia, one out of seven different congregations.

Let's look at another example to the Smyrna church:

Revelation 2:10
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Do you think this means the great tribulation lasts only 10 days for the Smyrna church? Of course not.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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That was said to ONE CHURCH. He also said this to another:

Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have TRIBULATION ten days : be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
I just made a similar comment. We are on the same wavelength lol.
 

Ahwatukee

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You left something out:

RAPTURE > MARRIAGE SUPPER IN HEAVEN> SECOND COMING TO EARTH> CHRISTIANS ON EARTH MISS THE WEDDING AND NOW ARE IN LIMBO??

That sounds about right for the errant pre-trib doctrine.
There will be those who come to Christ after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath. This is why Jesus warns believers to always be watching and ready so that that day does not close on us like a trap. For He says: "For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth."

Those who will be on the earth during that time will have not been believers in Christ prior to the gathering of the church and therefore will not have been watching nor ready for the Lord and will come to believe in Christ during the time of God's wrath, who will keep the testimony of Christ and the word of God. And who will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. As it says, "they will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death." This group is introduced in Revelation 7:9-17, many of which are killed during the tribulation period. They are believers, but they are never referred to as the church. The church period comes to its close when the Lord comes to gather us.

So, in response to your claim above, Yes, those who become believers after the church has been gathered will miss out on the wedding and that because they are not the bride and do not belong to the church. However, they are not in limbo. Of this group, those who are killed during that time will be resurrected immortal and glorified when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and will rule with the Lord during the thousand years. And those of this group who make it alive through the entire tribulation period, will enter into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies, along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth.