Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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CS1

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May 23, 2012
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What are you doing for the kingdom?

There is always that " stop your point of view, the only thing that matters is the gospel" dogma in every thread.

It is a forum.
I am doing what everyone else is doing.
please don't take it personal it was a general comment I don't care what you are doing or not that is between you and God. I am in the camp of Pretrib, and there is much biblical support for that position. I do not need your agreement to make it so.
 
Jul 18, 2021
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Free2grace,

Read each verse VERY CAREFULLY. There is much more than this.

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has chosen him.”

Matthew 11:27
no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses.

John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me makes him come.

John15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you.

John 5:21
in the same way the Son gives life to those he wants to.

John 17:6
I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world.

Acts 13:48
and all who God APPOINTED for eternal life believed.

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has chosen for me.

Romans 11:29
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. (Synonyms-irreversible,predetermined,can’t be changed)

Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own,

John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me.

John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have chosen for me, for they are yours.

Romans 9:15-16
God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to who I choose, and I will show compassion to who I choose.” So it is God who decides who He gives mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

God Choosing Who He Gives Belief that He Accepts

(Who He chose, Jesus is who began the faith in them and also kept them in faith. He controls it all)

Hebrew 12:2
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and finisher of our faith,

Romans 12:3
but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God HAS GIVEN YOU.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been GRANTED to you on behalf of Christ not only to BELIEVE in him, but also to suffer for him

2 Timothy 2:25
in the hope that God may GRANT them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

(The faith and salvation was Gods doing on those He chose)
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING; it is the gift of God,
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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The verses Rom 5:9, 1 Thes 1:10, and 1 Thes 5:9 do not explicitly demonstrate a rapturous deliverance from suffering God's wrath. Here's why:

Case 1) Deliverance does not mean that one necessarily completely avoids suffering that thing, only that the end result is to be taken away from it (example Romans 7).

"O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" - Romans 7:24 KJV


Good day, Jocund!

"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."

The "Hour of Trial" is another moniker for "The Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. In the scripture the Lord says that He will keep us "out of" that time of wrath, not keep us through it or during it, but out of it. Meaning that we will not even enter into that time period. The way that the Lord is going keep us out of the time of wrath, will be the fulfillment of
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and John 14:1-3.


Actually, yes Rom.5:9, 1 Thess.1:10, 5:9 do demonstrate deliverance. Since the Lord already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And since God's wrath will take place during the seven years leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then the church must be gathered prior to said wrath. It's just a matter of process of elimination. Since Christ already satisfied God's wrath that we deserve, then it no longer rests upon us. Anyone who believes and teaches that we will first go through God's wrath and then be gathered, are not really believing that the Lord took that punishment for us.

Case 2) Deliverance that also includes an avoidance of suffering does not necessarily mean one completely avoids being in the presence of that thing, only that they do not experience the ill effects (example: Daniel 3)
First of all, Daniel was not suffering the wrath of God, so there is no comparison. Jesus said that those who believe in Him would have trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The tribulation of God's wrath however, is not the same as those trials and tribulations, because it will be God's unprecedented direct wrath being poured out upon the inhabitants of the whole world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

" If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king. [...] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God." - Daniel 3:17&25 KJV
Once again, you are doing what so many do, which is not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's wrath. What shadrach, Meshach and Abednego suffered was also not the wrath of God, but was at the hands of men as a result of their faith. You need to keep this in mind whenever attempting to use these comparisons.

1 Thessalonians presents an interesting dilemma. Was the message for the church of the Thessalonians (1 Thes 1:1) specifically or directed to Christians generally? If specifically to the church, case 1) of deliverance is true. If to Christians in general, case 2) of the deliverance is true. In either case, rapturous escape is not a necessary conclusion.



There are 4 ways to be delivered from suffering wrath:

1) Moved to a safe location (e.g. Noah's ark)[/quoute]

Rebut: This is another example of not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Because God's wrath is going to come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth (Luke 21:34-36), there will be no ark's to get on and no small city to flee to. I would suggest an deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

2) Be unaffected by suffering (e.g. the furnace in Daniel)
Rebut: There is no scripture in Revelation that would suggest that God is going to make the church impervious to the plagues of wrath during the of His wrath. In fact it demonstrates the opposite in regards to the saints who are caught in that time period. In addition, you will not find the church even mentioned anywhere within the narrative of God's wrath, which is from chapters 6 through 18. Yet in chapters 1 thru 3, church was the only word that was used.

3) Sleep of death prior to wrath
Rebut: Only those who will have died prior to the resurrection will be sleeping, which is only in reference to their bodies. Their spirits are currently in heaven in the presence of the Lord waiting to be reunited with their resurrected bodies.

4) Rapture into the sky
Bingo! Yahtzee! The Greek word 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up' is the correct answer. It removes the church from the earth according to the Lord's promise and does away with the need for protect us while His wrath is being poured out. And once again, because God's wrath has already been satisfied on behalf of all believers, then we cannot enter into that time of God's wrath to be exposed to it. The reason that the saints of that time will be exposed to it, will be because they will not have been believers when the Lord comes for His church, which ends the church age, with God's wrath to follow.

Once the church has been completed and in God's timing, the Lord will descend from heaven and with that voice that sounds like a trumpet, will call up the bodies of those who will have died in Him, immortal and glorified. At that time the spirits of those who were in heaven will be reunited with those resurrected bodies. Immediately after that, those who are still alive when the resurrection takes place, will simply be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and that because they will not have been dead in order for their bodies to be resurrected. At that point, the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air at one place and one time, where the Lord will then fulfill the promise of John 14:1-3, taking us back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.



I am not familiar with this reference.

There are examples where God's wrath is applied to both righteous and wicked indiscriminately.

"And say to the land of Israel, Thus saith the Lord; Behold, I am against thee, and will draw forth my sword out of his sheath, and will cut off from thee the righteous and the wicked." - Ezekiel 21:3 KJV


First of all, this is not a relevant comparison. If the Lord was against Israel, then they were not living righteous lives.

Regarding dead and the living in Christ being changed and caught up, we are talking about those who will be having faith and not worshiping the god's of the surrounding people. Any believe who has wandered away from the truth and has gone back to willfully living according to the sinful nature, will not be in a watchful, ready state and will not be gathered. Only those who are living in faith being watchful and anticipating the Lord's promise to come back and gather us, will be caught up immortal and glorified.

It's actually a common misconception that God does not afflict punishment and injury on the righteous. Job is another example of a righteous man that faced many hardships there he considered to be punishments. There are specific instances including Sodom and Gomorrah where the righteous were completely spared, but that is not always the case.
Once again, this is not a relevant comparison. Job was not suffering the wrath of God. If you recall, when Satan presented himself to God, God asked him "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one on earth like him, a man who is blameless and upright, who fears God and shuns evil." Therefore, Job's troubles were not the result of God's wrath, but a testing of His faith initiated by Satan. So, here we are back again to understanding the difference between trials and tribulations as a result of our faith vs. God's direct wrath.

(continued)
 

Ahwatukee

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(Continued) from Jocund

"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." - Rev 17:14 KJV
Two interpretations. Either it is a physical return of Christ, or it is the emergence of the body of Christ through the people on earth (a metaphor that diametrically opposes the figure of the Whore of Babylon as a metaphor for nations of people). Even if we look at the physical return of Christ, where is it indicated that called, chosen, and faithful are coming from heaven?
I use this scripture myself all the time. To understand who the "they" are in the verse, you need to go back and read verse 11 which is referring to the beast and the ten kings. Therefore, the scripture says the following:

"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

This is an excerpt of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age when he engages the beast and the kings of the earth at Armageddon. It is synonymous with the following scripture:

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations"

In Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is when she receives her fine linen, white and clean, which are the same clothing that the armies are wearing which are following Christ out of heaven. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would already have to be in heaven.

Even if these individuals were from heaven, did they appear there by means of a live bodily rapture? Or did they die and eventually ascend to heaven in events unrelated to the Day of the Lord?
These are the dead and living who will have previously been caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will be returning with Him as He returns to the earth to take care of the beast, the false prophet, the wicked who belong to him and Satan and to end the age. As I said earlier, when the resurrection takes place, at that time, the dead and the living will receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, when they return with the Lord to end the age, it will be in those immortal and glorified bodies. For regarding this Paul said, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, we must be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies.

"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his Bride hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [...] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." - Rev 19:6-8&14 KJV

1) What indicates that the wedding feast takes place in heaven?
A: Because the vision is taking place in heaven

A 1). In Revelation 4:1 the voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." And the next verse says "At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. That would pretty much answer the question of where John is.

A 2). According to the following verses within the context, the vision is taking place in heaven:

V.19:1 - "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting" - 19:1

V.19:4 - "The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne." - 19:4

V.19:5 - "Then a voice came from the throne, saying"

So..... the context puts the wedding as taking place in heaven

By the way, the KJV has the rendering wrong! If a wedding is taking place, then the woman is a bride and not already a wife. Simply put, you don't have a wedding to get married to someone who is already your wife.

2) What indicates that heaven's armies are men rather than angels?
I explained this above, but I'll explain it again:

===================================================================================================================
V.7-8 "For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

V.14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
=================================================================================================

No doubt and according to other scriptures, there will indeed be angels, as well as the church following Christ out of heaven to the earth. However angels are no brides. If you will notice, in verse 7-8 the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, there is an army following the Lord out of heaven wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride will have received at the wedding. Then there is the following from Jude:

"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

3) If heaven's army is composed of men, what indicates these men originated from a live/fleshly rapture on the Day of the Lord?
Fist of all and as I already explained, the dead who are resurrected and the living who are caught up, their bodies will be transformed immortal and glorified. Therefore, when we return with the Lord, it will be in our immortal and glorified bodies, not our mortal bodies. This would also go back to the wedding of the Lamb. The nation Israel was referred to as God's wife and not a bride. It is believers within the church who are the bride, as Israel is already married. The saints of Israel will not be resurrected until the end of the tribulation period, where the church is resurrected prior to the tribulation period. That said, there would be no one else that could make up that army except for those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up to the Father's house.

"So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Look, Rabbi, the One who was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about—He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”

John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom."

Everyone is going to Him (Jesus) = The bride

"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;" - Titus 2:13 KJV
Why would being subject to suffering wrath negate a blessed hope? Especially when Rev 20 shows that in part of the purification process of the saved that sadness and grief fade away? The end result is good even if troubled times exist between the start and finish.
Because there would be no difference between the wicked and the righteous if they both go through the same wrath of God. It would be no blessed hope if we first had to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And once again, you and others need to understand the reason, severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath in order to understand why we cannot be on the earth to go through it, not to mention that Jesus already satisfied it.

First, we must look at what is most consistent with scripture. Is pre-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is post-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is no-fleshly-rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Can multiple disagreeing perspectives all be consistent with scripture? Yes.
To recap, it is not a "fleshly rapture." At that time the dead will be resurrected immortal and glorified and the living will be transformed immortal and glorified. To get an understanding of this, read 1 Corinthians 15 as Paul speaks about the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and with what bodies they come with.

==========================================================
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power."

"And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man." (Note: Jesus resurrected in the same body that He was crucified in, a body of flesh and bone, albeit immortal and glorified).

"Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all be dead in sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
========================================================================

So............ no fleshy immortal bodies at the gathering of the church.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have chosen for me, for they are yours.
"I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given [perfect indicative] Me, for they are Yours." --verse 9...

[...but keep in mind also that...]

...verse 20 GOES ON to say, "But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word" ("these" and "their" speaking specifically of the ones "given [perfect indicative] Me" in v.9--i.e. those seated immediately before Him [His disciples, minus Judas Iscariot])
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't removed from the Earth to escape them.



John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Acts 26:16 [said to Paul DIRECTLY FROM the risen, ascended, glorified and EXALTED Christ Jesus], "But rise up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you [Paul] for this purpose, to appoint you a servant and a witness both of that which you have seen of Me, and of the things in which I will appear to you" ... and 1Cor15:8 "And last of all, He appeared also to me [Paul], as to one of untimely birth"... and Gal1:15-19 "15 But when God, the One having selected me [Paul] from my mother’s womb and having called me by His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I consulted not immediately with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to the apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Cephas,a and I remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles, only James, the Lord’s brother."
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't removed from the Earth to escape them.



John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
On top of that, Revelation 3:10 doesn't use familiar terms like a gathering to Christ or being "caught up." To me that is enough to disqualify Rev. 3:10 as a possible rapture verse. Your exegesis adds some important points too.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Free2grace,

Read each verse VERY CAREFULLY. There is much more than this.
What there isn't in the Bible is puppetor robot theology, which is what you are promoting.

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has chosen him.”
Now, you read John 6:45 and learn WHO will come to Jesus. Those who listen and learn. Poof.

Matthew 11:27
no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses.
"“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

Now, go back to John 6:45 AGAIN and learn from it.

John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me makes him come.
As expected, v.45 is always left out. Because it ruins the theory.

" It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me."

John15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
Read the whole context. Jesus was speaking to 11 saved men. v.1-7 are about fruit bearing. Jesus was telling the 11 that He chose them to bear fruit.

John 5:21
in the same way the Son gives life to those he wants to.
Do you know who He wants to give life to? Believers.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

John 17:6
I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world.
Omniscience.

Acts 13:48
and all who God APPOINTED for eternal life believed.
The word "tasso" has been very poorly translated. It means "to line up". The context supports that.

John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has chosen for me.
Eternal security.

Romans 11:29
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. (Synonyms-irreversible,predetermined,can’t be changed)
Eternal security.

Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own,
Here is the best translation from the original Greek:

English Standard Version
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me.
Memorize John 6:45.

John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have chosen for me, for they are yours.
Memorize 1 Cor 1:21.

Romans 9:15-16
God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to who I choose, and I will show compassion to who I choose.” So it is God who decides who He gives mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
Memorize Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts. Let them turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on them, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

God Choosing Who He Gives Belief that He Accepts
Yep. No verse to support your claim here. And that is the major problem with the reformed doctrine of election.

There are NO verses that show God choosing who will believe.

There are many verses that clearly show the purpose of God's election, which is SERVICE.

(Who He chose, Jesus is who began the faith in them and also kept them in faith. He controls it all)
No, there is nothing in the Bible about your puppet/robot theology, as much as you want to think there is.

Hebrew 12:2
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and finisher of our faith,
Our salvation is totally based on what Jesus did for us. All we can do is receive the gift by faith.

Romans 12:3
but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God HAS GIVEN YOU.
This isn't about God giving faith to believe for salvation. Paul wrote this to SAVED people. He was referring to a spiritual gift that is given to believers in varying amounts.

Philippians 1:29
For it has been GRANTED to you on behalf of Christ not only to BELIEVE in him, but also to suffer for him
You see, God PERMITS (grants) people to believe on Christ and to suffer for Him.

2 Timothy 2:25
in the hope that God may GRANT them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
Permission, again.

(The faith and salvation was Gods doing on those He chose)
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING; it is the gift of God,
Of course our salvation is not by our own doing. That would be a works based salvation.

The gift is salvation, not our faith. Compare the genders. The word "it" and "saved" are feminine gender, while "faith" is masculine gender.

In the Greek, we know what words connect to others by genders.

So the verse says our salvation is a gift of God.

Which agrees with Rom 6:23 that eternal life is a free gift.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends.
Sorry, but we don't stumble over this as you just did. "ek" means "out of" i.e. to be kept 'out of', not through the hour of trial, nor during, but to be kept out of. Meaning that those who keep the patience of His word will be kept out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's time of wrath.

John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.
Do you know how many people have tried to use your argument above? You guys are like parrots, just repeating the same false arguments over and over. We've heard this one many times. Why do you people continue to fight against the truth instead of actually looking at what is be shown to you?

First of all, the correct scripture is John 17:15. In that instance Jesus' prayer was three-fold, as He prayer for himself, the disciples and then all believers throughout the church period. The prayer to not take them out of the world was for the disciples at that time and for them only and not the entire church period as you are attempting to use it. Think about! If the Lord had taken the disciples out of the world at that time, who would have been here to preach the gospel? In light of your claim, what would you have to say regarding the following?

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

Jesus resurrected and ascended immortal and glorified into heaven, which is what He is referring to here in that, when He comes for the church the disciples would also be resurrected immortal and glorified with the entire group being taken back to the Father's house. Then there are the other promises of the Lord's appearing and our being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. What do you do with those scriptures, sweep them under the rug? Void them out because of what John 17:15 says? What kind of exegesis is that?

I truly wish that you guys would stop repeating the false teachings of men and really look at the truth regarding these Biblical issues.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
 
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Yes it is. Pretribs believe they will be raptured out of this world so they are not part of Satan's Great Tribulation.
Am amillennialism.

Luke 21:9-11
King James Version


9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

We are currently here.

Great Tribulation is scary for the nonelects, but not for God's elects. God's elects are standing on a rock.
God's elects are not afraid of death=we go to Heaven.
 
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Sorry, but we don't stumble over this as you just did. "ek" means "out of" i.e. to be kept 'out of', not through the hour of trial, nor during, but to be kept out of. Meaning that those who keep the patience of His word will be kept out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's time of wrath.



Do you know how many people have tried to use your argument above? You guys are like parrots, just repeating the same false arguments over and over. We've heard this one many times. Why do you people continue to fight against the truth instead of actually looking at what is be shown to you?

First of all, the correct scripture is John 17:15. In that instance Jesus' prayer was three-fold, as He prayer for himself, the disciples and then all believers throughout the church period. The prayer to not take them out of the world was for the disciples at that time and for them only and not the entire church period as you are attempting to use it. Think about! If the Lord had taken the disciples out of the world at that time, who would have been here to preach the gospel? In light of your claim, what would you have to say regarding the following?

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

Jesus resurrected and ascended immortal and glorified into heaven, which is what He is referring to here in that, when He comes for the church the disciples would also be resurrected immortal and glorified with the entire group being taken back to the Father's house. Then there are the other promises of the Lord's appearing and our being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. What do you do with those scriptures, sweep them under the rug? Void them out because of what John 17:15 says? What kind of exegesis is that?

I truly wish that you guys would stop repeating the false teachings of men and really look at the truth regarding these Biblical issues.



Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
What's your definition of God's wrath in end times?
 
Jun 12, 2021
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Yes it is. Pretribs believe they will be raptured out of this world so they are not part of Satan's Great Tribulation.
From https://testallthings.com/2008/03/12/the-loosing-of-satan/

Let us compare some Scripture with Scripture here.

In Revelation 14:19 it is the great winepress that kills them.

In Revelation 16:21 it is the great hail that destroys them.

In Revelation 18:21 it is with great violence that they will be thrown down.

In Revelation 19:21 it is the sword that slays them.

In Revelation 20:9 it is the fire that devoured them.

What is the meaning of all these slayings?

The meaning is that all the wicked shall be killed in that Last Day, in order to pass through the resurrection of damnation and so that they all can appear before the Judgment seat of God in Christ.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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From https://testallthings.com/2008/03/12/the-loosing-of-satan/

Let us compare some Scripture with Scripture here.

In Revelation 14:19 it is the great winepress that kills them.

In Revelation 16:21 it is the great hail that destroys them.

In Revelation 18:21 it is with great violence that they will be thrown down.

In Revelation 19:21 it is the sword that slays them.

In Revelation 20:9 it is the fire that devoured them.

What is the meaning of all these slayings?

Those slaying are not done on the same day and on the day Christ returns, many of the unsaved shall die but not all of them according to Revelation 19:

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.

It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.

Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't removed from the Earth to escape them.



John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
wrong, try to use all the greek violations you like. Then suggest those who teach Pretrib are against the teaching of Christ is foolish.

Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support none of them are against the teaching of Christ, they are all mysteries.

The problem also with your Greek violations is you have not looked at the Hebrew in the Old Testament where God had a habit of divinely saving HIS People and protecting them from Judgement. Please don't suggest those who agree with Pre Trib are against Christ. That is ridiculous
 
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Yes it is. Pretribs believe they will be raptured out of this world so they are not part of Satan's Great Tribulation.
However, since there are no verses that show Jesus taking believers out of this world via resurrection, rapture or any other reason, why do you believe it?

Without evidence, you only have a theory. Not fact.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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wrong, try to use all the greek violations you like. Then suggest those who teach Pretrib are against the teaching of Christ is foolish.

Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support none of them are against the teaching of Christ, they are all mysteries.
That is a foolish statement. If the Bible supports pre post and no trib raptures, the Bible is internally contradicted and shouldn't be believed.

The Bible teaches very clearly in 2 Thess 2:1 that the rapture occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.

I have a challenge for you. No other pretribber has taken me up on my challenge. Maybe you will.

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

This is the challenge. Quote the verse but instead of my red words that define "coming" and "gathered" put in the words you believe they refer to.

That should solve the problem of believing that the verse teaches a posttrib rapture if you can show the words mean something other than what I have shown.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support none of them are against the teaching of Christ, they are all mysteries.
That's inaccurate. The Bible is complete without contradiction from beginning to end. That's the belief I hold. When I come across something that I don't understand, I dig harder, deeper, and pray. I'll do this for as long as it takes.

I do occasionally write things off as a mystery, but the rapture doctrine is not a mystery. The rapture doctrine is very plain and straightforward.

So there is no "Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support." If that were the case then the Bible wouldn't have stood the test of time due to endless criticism for being contradictory.

What is happening is that not everyone reads and understands the Bible the same way. Each of us hold different education levels, biases, assumptions, life experiences, upbringings, and worldviews that ultimately define how we read the Bible.

P.s. - the rapture will be post-trib.