(Continued) from Jocund
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." - Rev 17:14 KJV
Two interpretations. Either it is a physical return of Christ, or it is the emergence of the body of Christ through the people on earth (a metaphor that diametrically opposes the figure of the Whore of Babylon as a metaphor for nations of people). Even if we look at the physical return of Christ, where is it indicated that called, chosen, and faithful are coming from heaven?
I use this scripture myself all the time. To understand who the "they" are in the verse, you need to go back and read verse 11 which is referring to the beast and the ten kings. Therefore, the scripture says the following:
"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
This is an excerpt of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age when he engages the beast and the kings of the earth at Armageddon. It is synonymous with the following scripture:
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations"
In Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is when she receives her fine linen, white and clean, which are the same clothing that the armies are wearing which are following Christ out of heaven. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would already have to be in heaven.
Even if these individuals were from heaven, did they appear there by means of a live bodily rapture? Or did they die and eventually ascend to heaven in events unrelated to the Day of the Lord?
These are the dead and living who will have previously been caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will be returning with Him as He returns to the earth to take care of the beast, the false prophet, the wicked who belong to him and Satan and to end the age. As I said earlier, when the resurrection takes place, at that time, the dead and the living will receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, when they return with the Lord to end the age, it will be in those immortal and glorified bodies. For regarding this Paul said, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, we must be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies.
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his Bride hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [...] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." - Rev 19:6-8&14 KJV
1) What indicates that the wedding feast takes place in heaven?
A: Because the vision is taking place in heaven
A 1). In Revelation 4:1 the voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." And the next verse says "At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was
a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. That would pretty much answer the question of where John is.
A 2). According to the following verses within the context, the vision is taking place in heaven:
V.19:1 - "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude
in heaven shouting" - 19:1
V.19:4 - "The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and
worshiped God, who was seated on the throne." - 19:4
V.19:5 - "Then a voice came from
the throne, saying"
So..... the context puts the wedding as taking place in heaven
By the way, the KJV has the rendering wrong! If a wedding is taking place, then the woman is a bride and not already a wife. Simply put, you don't have a wedding to get married to someone who is already your wife.
2) What indicates that heaven's armies are men rather than angels?
I explained this above, but I'll explain it again:
===================================================================================================================
V.7-8 "For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
V.14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and
dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
=================================================================================================
No doubt and according to other scriptures, there will indeed be angels, as well as the church following Christ out of heaven to the earth. However angels are no brides. If you will notice, in verse 7-8 the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, there is an army following the Lord out of heaven wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride will have received at the wedding. Then there is the following from Jude:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “
Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
3) If heaven's army is composed of men, what indicates these men originated from a live/fleshly rapture on the Day of the Lord?
Fist of all and as I already explained, the dead who are resurrected and the living who are caught up, their bodies will be transformed immortal and glorified. Therefore, when we return with the Lord, it will be in our immortal and glorified bodies, not our mortal bodies. This would also go back to the wedding of the Lamb. The nation Israel was referred to as God's wife and not a bride. It is believers within the church who are the bride, as Israel is already married. The saints of Israel will not be resurrected until the end of the tribulation period, where the church is resurrected prior to the tribulation period. That said, there would be no one else that could make up that army except for those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up to the Father's house.
"So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Look, Rabbi, the One who was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about—
He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”
John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’
The bride belongs to the bridegroom."
Everyone is going to Him (Jesus) = The bride
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ;" - Titus 2:13 KJV
Why would being subject to suffering wrath negate a blessed hope? Especially when Rev 20 shows that in part of the purification process of the saved that sadness and grief fade away? The end result is good even if troubled times exist between the start and finish.
Because there would be no difference between the wicked and the righteous if they both go through the same wrath of God. It would be no blessed hope if we first had to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And once again, you and others need to understand the reason, severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath in order to understand why we cannot be on the earth to go through it, not to mention that Jesus already satisfied it.
First, we must look at what is most consistent with scripture. Is pre-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is post-trib fleshly rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Is no-fleshly-rapture consistent with scripture? Yes. Can multiple disagreeing perspectives all be consistent with scripture? Yes.
To recap, it is not a "fleshly rapture." At that time the dead will be resurrected immortal and glorified and the living will be transformed immortal and glorified. To get an understanding of this, read 1 Corinthians 15 as Paul speaks about the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and with what bodies they come with.
==========================================================
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is
raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is
raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is
raised in power."
"And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man." (Note: Jesus resurrected in the same body that He was crucified in, a body of flesh and bone, albeit immortal and glorified).
"Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all be dead in sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
========================================================================
So............ no fleshy immortal bodies at the gathering of the church.