Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.
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Free2grace,
Read each verse VERY CAREFULLY. There is much more than this.
John 6:65
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has chosen him.”
Matthew 11:27
no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses.
John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me makes him come.
John15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
John 5:21
in the same way the Son gives life to those he wants to.
John 17:6
I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world.
Acts 13:48
and all who God APPOINTED for eternal life believed.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has chosen for me.
Romans 11:29
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. (Synonyms-irreversible,predetermined,can’t be changed)
Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own,
John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me.
John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have chosen for me, for they are yours.
Romans 9:15-16
God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to who I choose, and I will show compassion to who I choose.” So it is God who decides who He gives mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
God Choosing Who He Gives Belief that He Accepts
(Who He chose, Jesus is who began the faith in them and also kept them in faith. He controls it all)
Hebrew 12:2
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and finisher of our faith,
Romans 12:3
but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God HAS GIVEN YOU.
Philippians 1:29
For it has been GRANTED to you on behalf of Christ not only to BELIEVE in him, but also to suffer for him
2 Timothy 2:25
in the hope that God may GRANT them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
(The faith and salvation was Gods doing on those He chose)
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING; it is the gift of God,
Read each verse VERY CAREFULLY. There is much more than this.
John 6:65
Then Jesus said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has chosen him.”
Matthew 11:27
no one knows the Father except the Son, and those to whom the Son chooses.
John 6:44
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me makes him come.
John15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you.
John 5:21
in the same way the Son gives life to those he wants to.
John 17:6
I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world.
Acts 13:48
and all who God APPOINTED for eternal life believed.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has chosen for me.
Romans 11:29
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. (Synonyms-irreversible,predetermined,can’t be changed)
Ephesians 1:11
In Him we were also chosen as God's own,
John 6:37
Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me.
John 17:9
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have chosen for me, for they are yours.
Romans 9:15-16
God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to who I choose, and I will show compassion to who I choose.” So it is God who decides who He gives mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
God Choosing Who He Gives Belief that He Accepts
(Who He chose, Jesus is who began the faith in them and also kept them in faith. He controls it all)
Hebrew 12:2
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and finisher of our faith,
Romans 12:3
but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God HAS GIVEN YOU.
Philippians 1:29
For it has been GRANTED to you on behalf of Christ not only to BELIEVE in him, but also to suffer for him
2 Timothy 2:25
in the hope that God may GRANT them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.
(The faith and salvation was Gods doing on those He chose)
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is NOT YOUR OWN DOING; it is the gift of God,
Good day, Jocund!
"Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you out of the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
The "Hour of Trial" is another moniker for "The Day of the Lord" and the tribulation period, the time of God's wrath. In the scripture the Lord says that He will keep us "out of" that time of wrath, not keep us through it or during it, but out of it. Meaning that we will not even enter into that time period. The way that the Lord is going keep us out of the time of wrath, will be the fulfillment of
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and John 14:1-3.
Actually, yes Rom.5:9, 1 Thess.1:10, 5:9 do demonstrate deliverance. Since the Lord already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. And since God's wrath will take place during the seven years leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then the church must be gathered prior to said wrath. It's just a matter of process of elimination. Since Christ already satisfied God's wrath that we deserve, then it no longer rests upon us. Anyone who believes and teaches that we will first go through God's wrath and then be gathered, are not really believing that the Lord took that punishment for us.
First of all, Daniel was not suffering the wrath of God, so there is no comparison. Jesus said that those who believe in Him would have trials and tribulation which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. The tribulation of God's wrath however, is not the same as those trials and tribulations, because it will be God's unprecedented direct wrath being poured out upon the inhabitants of the whole world via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
Once again, you are doing what so many do, which is not recognizing the difference between the trials and tribulations that come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's wrath. What shadrach, Meshach and Abednego suffered was also not the wrath of God, but was at the hands of men as a result of their faith. You need to keep this in mind whenever attempting to use these comparisons.
(Continued) from Jocund
I use this scripture myself all the time. To understand who the "they" are in the verse, you need to go back and read verse 11 which is referring to the beast and the ten kings. Therefore, the scripture says the following:
"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
This is an excerpt of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age when he engages the beast and the kings of the earth at Armageddon. It is synonymous with the following scripture:
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations"
In Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is when she receives her fine linen, white and clean, which are the same clothing that the armies are wearing which are following Christ out of heaven. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would already have to be in heaven.
These are the dead and living who will have previously been caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will be returning with Him as He returns to the earth to take care of the beast, the false prophet, the wicked who belong to him and Satan and to end the age. As I said earlier, when the resurrection takes place, at that time, the dead and the living will receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, when they return with the Lord to end the age, it will be in those immortal and glorified bodies. For regarding this Paul said, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, we must be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies.
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his Bride hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [...] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." - Rev 19:6-8&14 KJV
A: Because the vision is taking place in heaven
A 1). In Revelation 4:1 the voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." And the next verse says "At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. That would pretty much answer the question of where John is.
A 2). According to the following verses within the context, the vision is taking place in heaven:
V.19:1 - "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting" - 19:1
V.19:4 - "The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne." - 19:4
V.19:5 - "Then a voice came from the throne, saying"
So..... the context puts the wedding as taking place in heaven
By the way, the KJV has the rendering wrong! If a wedding is taking place, then the woman is a bride and not already a wife. Simply put, you don't have a wedding to get married to someone who is already your wife.
I explained this above, but I'll explain it again:
===================================================================================================================
V.7-8 "For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
V.14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
=================================================================================================
No doubt and according to other scriptures, there will indeed be angels, as well as the church following Christ out of heaven to the earth. However angels are no brides. If you will notice, in verse 7-8 the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, there is an army following the Lord out of heaven wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride will have received at the wedding. Then there is the following from Jude:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Fist of all and as I already explained, the dead who are resurrected and the living who are caught up, their bodies will be transformed immortal and glorified. Therefore, when we return with the Lord, it will be in our immortal and glorified bodies, not our mortal bodies. This would also go back to the wedding of the Lamb. The nation Israel was referred to as God's wife and not a bride. It is believers within the church who are the bride, as Israel is already married. The saints of Israel will not be resurrected until the end of the tribulation period, where the church is resurrected prior to the tribulation period. That said, there would be no one else that could make up that army except for those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up to the Father's house.
"So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Look, Rabbi, the One who was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about—He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”
John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom."
Everyone is going to Him (Jesus) = The bride
Because there would be no difference between the wicked and the righteous if they both go through the same wrath of God. It would be no blessed hope if we first had to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And once again, you and others need to understand the reason, severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath in order to understand why we cannot be on the earth to go through it, not to mention that Jesus already satisfied it.
To recap, it is not a "fleshly rapture." At that time the dead will be resurrected immortal and glorified and the living will be transformed immortal and glorified. To get an understanding of this, read 1 Corinthians 15 as Paul speaks about the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and with what bodies they come with.
==========================================================
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power."
"And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man." (Note: Jesus resurrected in the same body that He was crucified in, a body of flesh and bone, albeit immortal and glorified).
"Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all be dead in sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
========================================================================
So............ no fleshy immortal bodies at the gathering of the church.
I use this scripture myself all the time. To understand who the "they" are in the verse, you need to go back and read verse 11 which is referring to the beast and the ten kings. Therefore, the scripture says the following:
"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
This is an excerpt of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age when he engages the beast and the kings of the earth at Armageddon. It is synonymous with the following scripture:
"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations"
In Rev.19:6-8, the bride/church is attending the wedding of the Lamb and is when she receives her fine linen, white and clean, which are the same clothing that the armies are wearing which are following Christ out of heaven. In order to follow the Lord out of heaven, one would already have to be in heaven.
These are the dead and living who will have previously been caught up to meet the Lord in the air and will be returning with Him as He returns to the earth to take care of the beast, the false prophet, the wicked who belong to him and Satan and to end the age. As I said earlier, when the resurrection takes place, at that time, the dead and the living will receive their immortal and glorified bodies. Therefore, when they return with the Lord to end the age, it will be in those immortal and glorified bodies. For regarding this Paul said, "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." Therefore, we must be transformed into our immortal and glorified bodies.
"And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his Bride hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. [...] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." - Rev 19:6-8&14 KJV
A: Because the vision is taking place in heaven
A 1). In Revelation 4:1 the voice that sounds like a trumpet says "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." And the next verse says "At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. That would pretty much answer the question of where John is.
A 2). According to the following verses within the context, the vision is taking place in heaven:
V.19:1 - "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting" - 19:1
V.19:4 - "The twenty-four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God, who was seated on the throne." - 19:4
V.19:5 - "Then a voice came from the throne, saying"
So..... the context puts the wedding as taking place in heaven
By the way, the KJV has the rendering wrong! If a wedding is taking place, then the woman is a bride and not already a wife. Simply put, you don't have a wedding to get married to someone who is already your wife.
I explained this above, but I'll explain it again:
===================================================================================================================
V.7-8 "For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
V.14 "The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
=================================================================================================
No doubt and according to other scriptures, there will indeed be angels, as well as the church following Christ out of heaven to the earth. However angels are no brides. If you will notice, in verse 7-8 the bride receives her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, there is an army following the Lord out of heaven wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that the bride will have received at the wedding. Then there is the following from Jude:
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
Fist of all and as I already explained, the dead who are resurrected and the living who are caught up, their bodies will be transformed immortal and glorified. Therefore, when we return with the Lord, it will be in our immortal and glorified bodies, not our mortal bodies. This would also go back to the wedding of the Lamb. The nation Israel was referred to as God's wife and not a bride. It is believers within the church who are the bride, as Israel is already married. The saints of Israel will not be resurrected until the end of the tribulation period, where the church is resurrected prior to the tribulation period. That said, there would be no one else that could make up that army except for those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up to the Father's house.
"So John’s disciples came to him and said, “Look, Rabbi, the One who was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about—He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”
John replied, “A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. You yourselves can testify that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but am sent ahead of Him.’ The bride belongs to the bridegroom."
Everyone is going to Him (Jesus) = The bride
Because there would be no difference between the wicked and the righteous if they both go through the same wrath of God. It would be no blessed hope if we first had to go through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And once again, you and others need to understand the reason, severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath in order to understand why we cannot be on the earth to go through it, not to mention that Jesus already satisfied it.
To recap, it is not a "fleshly rapture." At that time the dead will be resurrected immortal and glorified and the living will be transformed immortal and glorified. To get an understanding of this, read 1 Corinthians 15 as Paul speaks about the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and with what bodies they come with.
==========================================================
"So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power."
"And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man." (Note: Jesus resurrected in the same body that He was crucified in, a body of flesh and bone, albeit immortal and glorified).
"Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all be dead in sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
========================================================================
So............ no fleshy immortal bodies at the gathering of the church.
"I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given [perfect indicative] Me, for they are Yours." --verse 9...
[...but keep in mind also that...]
...verse 20 GOES ON to say, "But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word" ("these" and "their" speaking specifically of the ones "given [perfect indicative] Me" in v.9--i.e. those seated immediately before Him [His disciples, minus Judas Iscariot])
[...but keep in mind also that...]
...verse 20 GOES ON to say, "But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word" ("these" and "their" speaking specifically of the ones "given [perfect indicative] Me" in v.9--i.e. those seated immediately before Him [His disciples, minus Judas Iscariot])
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't removed from the Earth to escape them.
John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.
Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.
No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.
Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
Another thing that pre-tribs stumble over is that Revelation 3:10's, "keep thee from" which is the Greek "tereo ge ek".
"tereo ek" is only found in one other place in the bible and the context means to be kept from something while remaining present until it ends. This is true of examples of plagues, wrath, and tribulation where people were there and lived through those events and weren't removed from the Earth to escape them.
John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.
Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one.
No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.
Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
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Acts 26:16 [said to Paul DIRECTLY FROM the risen, ascended, glorified and EXALTED Christ Jesus], "But rise up and stand on your feet. For I have appeared to you [Paul] for this purpose, to appoint you a servant and a witness both of that which you have seen of Me, and of the things in which I will appear to you" ... and 1Cor15:8 "And last of all, He appeared also to me [Paul], as to one of untimely birth"... and Gal1:15-19 "15 But when God, the One having selected me [Paul] from my mother’s womb and having called me by His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I consulted not immediately with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to the apostles before me, but I went away into Arabia and returned again to Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to make acquaintance with Cephas,a and I remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles, only James, the Lord’s brother."
Let the readers note... this ^ is not the "pre-trib" argument. 
Yes it is. Pretribs believe they will be raptured out of this world so they are not part of Satan's Great Tribulation.
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Sorry, but we don't stumble over this as you just did. "ek" means "out of" i.e. to be kept 'out of', not through the hour of trial, nor during, but to be kept out of. Meaning that those who keep the patience of His word will be kept out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's time of wrath.
Do you know how many people have tried to use your argument above? You guys are like parrots, just repeating the same false arguments over and over. We've heard this one many times. Why do you people continue to fight against the truth instead of actually looking at what is be shown to you?
First of all, the correct scripture is John 17:15. In that instance Jesus' prayer was three-fold, as He prayer for himself, the disciples and then all believers throughout the church period. The prayer to not take them out of the world was for the disciples at that time and for them only and not the entire church period as you are attempting to use it. Think about! If the Lord had taken the disciples out of the world at that time, who would have been here to preach the gospel? In light of your claim, what would you have to say regarding the following?
"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.
Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”
Jesus resurrected and ascended immortal and glorified into heaven, which is what He is referring to here in that, when He comes for the church the disciples would also be resurrected immortal and glorified with the entire group being taken back to the Father's house. Then there are the other promises of the Lord's appearing and our being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. What do you do with those scriptures, sweep them under the rug? Void them out because of what John 17:15 says? What kind of exegesis is that?
I truly wish that you guys would stop repeating the false teachings of men and really look at the truth regarding these Biblical issues.
Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
Do you know how many people have tried to use your argument above? You guys are like parrots, just repeating the same false arguments over and over. We've heard this one many times. Why do you people continue to fight against the truth instead of actually looking at what is be shown to you?
First of all, the correct scripture is John 17:15. In that instance Jesus' prayer was three-fold, as He prayer for himself, the disciples and then all believers throughout the church period. The prayer to not take them out of the world was for the disciples at that time and for them only and not the entire church period as you are attempting to use it. Think about! If the Lord had taken the disciples out of the world at that time, who would have been here to preach the gospel? In light of your claim, what would you have to say regarding the following?
"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.
Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”
Jesus resurrected and ascended immortal and glorified into heaven, which is what He is referring to here in that, when He comes for the church the disciples would also be resurrected immortal and glorified with the entire group being taken back to the Father's house. Then there are the other promises of the Lord's appearing and our being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. What do you do with those scriptures, sweep them under the rug? Void them out because of what John 17:15 says? What kind of exegesis is that?
I truly wish that you guys would stop repeating the false teachings of men and really look at the truth regarding these Biblical issues.
Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
Am amillennialism.
Luke 21:9-11
King James Version
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
We are currently here.
Great Tribulation is scary for the nonelects, but not for God's elects. God's elects are standing on a rock.
God's elects are not afraid of death=we go to Heaven.
Luke 21:9-11
King James Version
9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
We are currently here.
Great Tribulation is scary for the nonelects, but not for God's elects. God's elects are standing on a rock.
God's elects are not afraid of death=we go to Heaven.
From https://testallthings.com/2008/03/12/the-loosing-of-satan/
Let us compare some Scripture with Scripture here.
In Revelation 14:19 it is the great winepress that kills them.
In Revelation 16:21 it is the great hail that destroys them.
In Revelation 18:21 it is with great violence that they will be thrown down.
In Revelation 19:21 it is the sword that slays them.
In Revelation 20:9 it is the fire that devoured them.
What is the meaning of all these slayings?
The meaning is that all the wicked shall be killed in that Last Day, in order to pass through the resurrection of damnation and so that they all can appear before the Judgment seat of God in Christ.
Let us compare some Scripture with Scripture here.
In Revelation 14:19 it is the great winepress that kills them.
In Revelation 16:21 it is the great hail that destroys them.
In Revelation 18:21 it is with great violence that they will be thrown down.
In Revelation 19:21 it is the sword that slays them.
In Revelation 20:9 it is the fire that devoured them.
What is the meaning of all these slayings?
The meaning is that all the wicked shall be killed in that Last Day, in order to pass through the resurrection of damnation and so that they all can appear before the Judgment seat of God in Christ.
Those slaying are not done on the same day and on the day Christ returns, many of the unsaved shall die but not all of them according to Revelation 19:
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite (Aorist tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth (PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming. The treading and smiting are happening at Armageddon but not the ruling which proves mortals will be alive after Armageddon is over. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.
A second witness to this:
Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:
Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the mortal unsaved nations after Christ has returned not before it.
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule (FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.
It is impossible to understand what happens at the second coming and what happens AFTER the second coming properly without understanding the verb tenses involved.
Since scripture does not contradict itself, there are no scriptures which state all mortals are slain at the second coming leaving none to be ruled over.
wrong, try to use all the greek violations you like. Then suggest those who teach Pretrib are against the teaching of Christ is foolish.
Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support none of them are against the teaching of Christ, they are all mysteries.
The problem also with your Greek violations is you have not looked at the Hebrew in the Old Testament where God had a habit of divinely saving HIS People and protecting them from Judgement. Please don't suggest those who agree with Pre Trib are against Christ. That is ridiculous
Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support none of them are against the teaching of Christ, they are all mysteries.
The problem also with your Greek violations is you have not looked at the Hebrew in the Old Testament where God had a habit of divinely saving HIS People and protecting them from Judgement. Please don't suggest those who agree with Pre Trib are against Christ. That is ridiculous
That is a foolish statement. If the Bible supports pre post and no trib raptures, the Bible is internally contradicted and shouldn't be believed.
The Bible teaches very clearly in 2 Thess 2:1 that the rapture occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.
I have a challenge for you. No other pretribber has taken me up on my challenge. Maybe you will.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
This is the challenge. Quote the verse but instead of my red words that define "coming" and "gathered" put in the words you believe they refer to.
That should solve the problem of believing that the verse teaches a posttrib rapture if you can show the words mean something other than what I have shown.
The Bible teaches very clearly in 2 Thess 2:1 that the rapture occurs with the Second Advent of Christ.
I have a challenge for you. No other pretribber has taken me up on my challenge. Maybe you will.
2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,
This is the challenge. Quote the verse but instead of my red words that define "coming" and "gathered" put in the words you believe they refer to.
That should solve the problem of believing that the verse teaches a posttrib rapture if you can show the words mean something other than what I have shown.
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That's inaccurate. The Bible is complete without contradiction from beginning to end. That's the belief I hold. When I come across something that I don't understand, I dig harder, deeper, and pray. I'll do this for as long as it takes.
I do occasionally write things off as a mystery, but the rapture doctrine is not a mystery. The rapture doctrine is very plain and straightforward.
So there is no "Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support." If that were the case then the Bible wouldn't have stood the test of time due to endless criticism for being contradictory.
What is happening is that not everyone reads and understands the Bible the same way. Each of us hold different education levels, biases, assumptions, life experiences, upbringings, and worldviews that ultimately define how we read the Bible.
P.s. - the rapture will be post-trib.
I do occasionally write things off as a mystery, but the rapture doctrine is not a mystery. The rapture doctrine is very plain and straightforward.
So there is no "Pre, Post, and no trib rapture all have biblical support." If that were the case then the Bible wouldn't have stood the test of time due to endless criticism for being contradictory.
What is happening is that not everyone reads and understands the Bible the same way. Each of us hold different education levels, biases, assumptions, life experiences, upbringings, and worldviews that ultimately define how we read the Bible.
P.s. - the rapture will be post-trib.
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