Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Apr 12, 2021
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My answers with scripture were straightforward. I give you the answers, you ignore them and then ask for more proof. That seems to be the consistent reaction on your part.

"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day on which your Lord will come. But understand this: If the homeowner had known in which watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. For this reason, you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour you do not expect."

Which part of the Lord "coming at an hour you do not expect" don't you understand as inferring eminency? Here's another one:

"But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. 51Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Every since the Lord's resurrection, His return to gather His church has been imminent, about to happen, in the workings, looming, impending. Do you understand this concept. Since the Lord promised to come and get His church, then it must take place, which means that it is always about to happen, imminent.
It's imminence. I understand what imminent means; it means that Jesus could come at any moment. But if imminence is true, when did imminence begin? Jesus coming could not have been imminent in the first century, because Jesus told Peter that Peter would die in his old age, and that the temple would be destroyed, and John had to deliver the letter to the seven churches. Imminence could not be before the fulness of gentiles, which has been ongoing for almost the last 2,000 years. The cosmic disturbances spoken of by Joel and Isaiah also have to occur before Jesus returns, if this is the same cosmic disturbance Jesus spoke of in Matthew, and that disturbance occurs after the tribulation but before He returns. So, my question i,once again, when did imminency begin?
 
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Yet only one is accurately providing scripture to support their view. The others are providing scripture they don't fully understand because all of it does not support their view at all but they mistakingly believe it does. Only one has their eyes open and can understand when the rapture happens. The others do not and are spiritually blinded.
Which position is correct, in your view?
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Which position is correct, in your view?
Only Post-trib matches when Paul and Christ said the rapture happens. Everything else is eisegesis and misunderstanding of scripture.
 
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This is most likely more of a Biblical misinterpretation than selfish or self-seeking Christians weaving a web of errors in order to somehow avoid a post-tribulation rapture. The Word of God doesn't need us to fully understand it to come to pass. God works entirely independent of what we believe or understand.

I may not agree with pre-tribbers, literally on anything, but I still see them as brothers and sisters. We all have flaws. I won't sit here and pretend I'm without faults.
Flaws have nothing to do with false doctrine. You are being an apologist. We all have flaws. But this willful manipulation of scripture. There is no way you can look at this logically and say it's not. The willful manipulation of evil men that started it.. There is a big history behind this. And it evil plot. It's intended to decieve. The problem will be when folks are about to be put to death and they will fill betrayed. And lose faith and take the mark of the Beast. A well layed out plan.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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That "Darby-started-it" theory has been long debunked. I'm surprised people are still appealing to it. :rolleyes:
 
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This is most likely more of a Biblical misinterpretation than selfish or self-seeking Christians weaving a web of errors in order to somehow avoid a post-tribulation rapture. The Word of God doesn't need us to fully understand it to come to pass. God works entirely independent of what we believe or understand.

I may not agree with pre-tribbers, literally on anything, but I still see them as brothers and sisters. We all have flaws. I won't sit here and pretend I'm without faults.
Flaws have nothing to do with false doctrine. You are being an apologist. We all have flaws. But this willful manipulation of scripture. There is no way you can look at this logically and say it's not. The willful manipulation of evil men that started it.. There is a big history behind this. And it evil plot. It's intended to decieve. The problem will be when folks are about to be put to death and they will fill betrayed. And lose faith and take the mark of the Beast. A well layed out plan.
That "Darby-started-it" theory has been long debunked. I'm surprised people are still appealing to it. :rolleyes:
No it has not...I think I am going to start more conspiracy stuff on here... and see if you twist more scripture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ Are you saying that you EQUATE things like 2Th2:1 (when His 'presence / parousia' is with the Church which is His body who ALONE is the SOLE entity having been 'raptured [IN THE AIR]'... i.e. 'OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [there!])
...as being the SAME thing as 2Th2:8b ('the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia'... when 'EVERY EYE shall see Him')??


IOW, v.1 in your view is speaking of what v.8b is speaking of??




____________

[to the readers: "the man of sin" doing ALL he is slated to DO over the course of SOME TIME *between* those two points, as well as being the same time-period when God will send "TO THEM" (certain ones) "great delusion THAT THEY should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei" vv.10-12 (i.e. DURING the 7-yr Trib)]
 
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^ Are you saying that you EQUATE things like 2Th2:1 (when His 'presence / parousia' is with the Church which is His body who ALONE is the SOLE entity having been 'raptured [IN THE AIR]'... i.e. 'OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" [there!])
...as being the SAME thing as 2Th2:8b ('the MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia'... when 'EVERY EYE shall see Him')??


IOW, v.1 in your view is speaking of what v.8b is speaking of??



["the man of sin" doing ALL he is slated to DO over the course of SOME TIME *between* those two points, as well as the time-period of God sending "TO THEM" (certain ones) "great delusion THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the pseudei" vv.10-12]
I sure hope you dont use the corrupted Greek Concordance.
 
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Darby didn't start it but he popularized it. Either way, it's false doctrine.
Some scholars say he is the Father of the pretrib and and others say he influenced by others before him. Most say he is the father of dispensationlism... Its not a big deal. But from all research I have done. The the majority beleive he is the father dispensationlism or futurism
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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I sure hope you dont use the corrupted Greek Concordance.
EVERY source I examined, when I studied this out, ALL show the SAME words for v.1; ...and show the SAME words for v.8b (the verses I posted about, that you quoted of my post [without response, I might add ;) ]);



Are you aware of a "corrupted" Greek Concordance that shows something different to that?? If so, do tell... educate us all.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,981
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Some scholars say he is the Father of the pretrib and and others say he influenced by others before him. Most say he is the father of dispensationlism... Its not a big deal. But from all research I have done. The the majority beleive he is the father dispensationlism or futurism
https://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-concept-of-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/


“Peter Jurieu in his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to Heaven before the battle of Armageddon… Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear these men believed that this coming will precede Christ’s descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763 ) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.


Tommy Ice, the director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, asserts that the first person to spell out in detail the idea that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation begins was a Baptist leader named Morgan Edwards.4 This remarkable man was born in Wales and preached at churches in England and Ireland before emigrating to the United States in 1761 to become pastor of a church in Philadelphia. He proceeded to become the founder of Brown University and was recognized as the leading Baptist historian of his day.

As early as the 1740’s Edwards was espousing a pre-tribulational viewpoint in his writings about eschatology. The difference in his view and the modern Pre-Trib concept is that he believed the Rapture would occur in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, about 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming.

The Modern Pre-Trib View

The person who crystallized the modern Pre-Trib viewpoint was a man named John Darby (1800-1882) .”

Darby was obviously not the first to teach the pre-trib doctrine. Even Paul had to teach against the concept of Christ coming at any time so the idea existed when Paul was alive.

The idea of a pretrib or "at any moment" second coming/rapture existed back in Paul's day due to people misunderstanding something he said.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib theory. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly and without any warning to those who are deceived and in spiritual darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Some people think "at hand" means happened already in the past but that isn't what it means.

"at hand" is used elsewhere where the meaning is clearer:

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Of course that time had not come already in the past. It was near...same in 2 Thess where people thought the second coming was near. They did not think it had already happened. There would literally be no reason to think they missed the second coming given all of the major events that happen that day. No one will be here during the second coming and not realize it had happened due to the absolute change to the world and the changes to the lives of all peoples.



"at hand" means something that is near, not something that had already happened. It is the same when Paul wrote it. The Thess's thought Paul was saying Jesus could come as a thief in the night but he only meant that in regard to the unsaved and blinded...not the Christian watchmen.



2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.


All the disciples and Apostles did think they were going to live to see the second coming so the idea that the last days were coming soon is no surprise. Here the same Greek word is used but the writer is not saying the end times have already happened but is yet to come but with the implication is is near, as in near your hand or as we would say, "almost within reach". It's the same idea in 2nd Thess. When Paul is comforting them by telling them Christ will not show up as a thief in the night and surprise you. There are signs that will tell you it is very near ie: at hand or almost within reach or close.




2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".
 
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EVERY source I examined, when I studied this out, ALL show the SAME words for v.1 and the SAME words for v.8b (the verses I posted about, that you quoted of my post [without response, I might add ;) ]);



Are you aware of a "corrupted" Greek Concordance that shows something different to that?? If so, do tell... educate us all.
You dont need a CONcordance. Read your Bible and what its says. KJV scholars knew there Greek, Latin and Hebrew/Aramaic which was the language during Babylonian captivity. 40 well educated men. The Concordances are to confuse and decieve people. You dont have a clue what's really going on. Why do you need a Concordance? The Bible speaks for itself.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,874
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2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Some people think "at hand" means happened already in the past but that isn't what it means.
In the "PERFECT INDICATIVE" (which 2Th2:2 word is in), it DOES:

1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present
V-RIA-3S [<-- the "RI" meaning "PERFECT INDICATIVE"]


translated properly here as "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"

"at hand" is used elsewhere where the meaning is clearer:

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
This ^ word is not G1764 like in the 2Th2:2 verse ^ ; but is instead G1451 (in Matt26:18) meaning "near" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/26/18/ss1/s_955018



Study it out, ewq! ;)
 
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https://christinprophecy.org/articles/the-origin-of-the-concept-of-a-pre-tribulation-rapture/


“Peter Jurieu in his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to Heaven before the battle of Armageddon… Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear these men believed that this coming will precede Christ’s descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763 ) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.


Tommy Ice, the director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, asserts that the first person to spell out in detail the idea that the Rapture would occur before the Tribulation begins was a Baptist leader named Morgan Edwards.4 This remarkable man was born in Wales and preached at churches in England and Ireland before emigrating to the United States in 1761 to become pastor of a church in Philadelphia. He proceeded to become the founder of Brown University and was recognized as the leading Baptist historian of his day.

As early as the 1740’s Edwards was espousing a pre-tribulational viewpoint in his writings about eschatology. The difference in his view and the modern Pre-Trib concept is that he believed the Rapture would occur in the middle of Daniel’s 70th week, about 3 1/2 years before the Second Coming.

The Modern Pre-Trib View

The person who crystallized the modern Pre-Trib viewpoint was a man named John Darby (1800-1882) .”

Darby was obviously not the first to teach the pre-trib doctrine. Even Paul had to teach against the concept of Christ coming at any time so the idea existed when Paul was alive.

The idea of a pretrib or "at any moment" second coming/rapture existed back in Paul's day due to people misunderstanding something he said.

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

He shouldn't even have to speak of these things because he would have told them in person when he was with them but for some reason he decides in fact to re-tell them this:

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


This is it. The idea that Christ could come suddenly without any warning before the tribulation and Antichrist etc is what started the Pre-trib theory. This one sentence will be misunderstood and the idea that Christ could come at any time, even before the tribulation happens, is born. The facts are that Christ cannot and will not just suddenly appear because there are major events that have to take place first before he arrives but those who are unsaved and spiritually blind won't know this and so the second coming will surprise them without warning as a thief in the night but not those who are awake and watching for the right signs.


1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


And this is the part that was missed or ignored. Christ only comes suddenly and without any warning to those who are deceived and in spiritual darkness, and are worshiping a false god in the tribulation. Christ's actual appearance will be sudden and shocking to them! But not to us!


1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night



So the confusion about Christ appearing suddenly at any moment reached Paul and he wrote a second letter to explain what he meant in the first one!


2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

He is saying DO NOT BE WORRIED THAT CHRIST CAN JUST SUDDENLY RETURN AND SURPRISE YOU!

Look at his words:

1. by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

That is the second coming!

2. and by our gathering together unto him

That is the rapture!

3. that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Don't be worried that the second coming and the rapture "is at hand" meaning they could happen at any moment instead of after the tribulation as Christ said in the gospels.



2Th_2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Some people think "at hand" means happened already in the past but that isn't what it means.

"at hand" is used elsewhere where the meaning is clearer:

Mat 26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

Of course that time had not come already in the past. It was near...same in 2 Thess where people thought the second coming was near. They did not think it had already happened. There would literally be no reason to think they missed the second coming given all of the major events that happen that day. No one will be here during the second coming and not realize it had happened due to the absolute change to the world and the changes to the lives of all peoples.



"at hand" means something that is near, not something that had already happened. It is the same when Paul wrote it. The Thess's thought Paul was saying Jesus could come as a thief in the night but he only meant that in regard to the unsaved and blinded...not the Christian watchmen.



2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.


All the disciples and Apostles did think they were going to live to see the second coming so the idea that the last days were coming soon is no surprise. Here the same Greek word is used but the writer is not saying the end times have already happened but is yet to come but with the implication is is near, as in near your hand or as we would say, "almost within reach". It's the same idea in 2nd Thess. When Paul is comforting them by telling them Christ will not show up as a thief in the night and surprise you. There are signs that will tell you it is very near ie: at hand or almost within reach or close.




2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

There are major things that happen first which will let the faithful know the return of Christ is soon! That is mainly the Tribulation and Apostasy where essentially the whole world, all religions and even Atheists, will believe in this person who will claim and seem to be God! I believe he will claim to be Jesus Christ leading so many astray.

So Paul has just said don't be worried that the second coming and rapture can happen before the tribulation and the Apostasy led by the Antichrist! IE: a pre-trib rapture is not true, right from the mouth of Paul himself.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?


Now he has to remind them...but some will never let go of this "any moment" doctrine that Christ can return suddenly to "rapture the Church away".
I am glad you sent me that. Since you and eye see eye to eye. No point in arguing over it...lol
 
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In the "PERFECT INDICATIVE" (which 2Th2:2 word is in), it DOES:

1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present
V-RIA-3S ["RI" meaning "PERFECT INDICATIVE"]



This word is not G1764 like in the 2Th2:2 verse; but is instead G1451 (Matt26:18) - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/26/18/ss1/s_955018
Why are yall using a Greek CONCORDANCE..
In the "PERFECT INDICATIVE" (which 2Th2:2 word is in), it DOES:

1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present
V-RIA-3S [<-- the "RI" meaning "PERFECT INDICATIVE"]


translated properly here as "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"



This ^ word is not G1764 like in the 2Th2:2 verse ^ ; but is instead G1451 (in Matt26:18) - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/26/18/ss1/s_955018
QUIT using the corrupted Greek concordance
 
Jul 20, 2021
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In the "PERFECT INDICATIVE" (which 2Th2:2 word is in), it DOES:

1764 [e]
enestēken
ἐνέστηκεν
is present
V-RIA-3S [<-- the "RI" meaning "PERFECT INDICATIVE"]


translated properly here as "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE"



This ^ word is not G1764 like in the 2Th2:2 verse ^ ; but is instead G1451 (in Matt26:18) meaning "near" - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/26/18/ss1/s_955018



Study it out, ewq! ;)
You sure like that corrupted CONcordance...I guess those 40 scholars had no idea. How to translate Greek..lmbo