Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Are you saying you believe ALL "saints" (who've died) of ALL time periods are "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, as these "2W" are resurrected??
Obviously no since nothing in my post mentioned anything like that. According to pretrib, the 2w are not part of the first resurrection and why that is important is because they are actually part of the first resurrection because that happens at the one and only second coming not 7 years before it. This is one out of many reason where pretrib contradicts the bible and therefore is known absolutely to be wrong.




(I don't... but it seems this must be *your*conclusion, according to your argument) - Revelation 11:11,14 [8:13]
It is obviously not my conclusion at all. All the saved will become immortal on the same day. The dead will resurrect first, then the living will be changed. This happens once the 7th trumpet sounds.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Which also means they do not participate in the first resurrection, according to the badly composed pre-trib doctrine.
Hello ewq1938,

The two witness do indeed take part in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is comprised of phases. Every resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection. What trips people up is the word "first" which they interpret as meaning 'only.' Below are the phases of the first resurrection:

* Jesus the first fruits

* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17)

* The Male Child/144,000 (changed and caught up) in the middle of the tribulation (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)

* The Great Tribulation Saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above make up the first resurrection. It is the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years that is not a part of the first resurrection. Everyone who takes part in that resurrection, the second death has power over.
 
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Hello ewq1938,

The two witness do indeed take part in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is comprised of phases. Every resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection. What trips people up is the word "first" which they interpret as meaning 'only.' Below are the phases of the first resurrection:

* Jesus the first fruits

* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17)

* The Male Child/144,000 (changed and caught up) in the middle of the tribulation (Rev.12:5)

* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)

* The Great Tribulation Saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

All of the above make up the first resurrection. It is the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years that is not a part of the first resurrection. Everyone who takes part in that resurrection, the second death has power over.
The first resurrection is a general resurrection for all saints to receive a glorified body. It happens once and it's at the return of Christ after the great tribulation. This means the resurrection occurs first then the rapture. It's that simple in the plain text of 1 Thessalonians 4 and Revelation 20.
 
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Are you saying you believe ALL "saints" (who've died) of ALL time periods are "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, as these "2W" are resurrected?? (I don't... but it seems this must be *your*conclusion, according to your argument) - Revelation 11:11,14 [8:13]
Let's just dispense with all the ridiculous embellishments you put into your posts.

All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Notice, please, the SINGULAR for each resurrection. So, how many are there? 2. One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Can you honestly claim that the red words will involve several events over an extended period of time?

The blue words show just 2 "groups". Christ is the 'firstfruits', a "group" so to speak. And THEN, when He comes (Second Advent) everyone else in the saved group.

Now, if you can unpack this without all those distracting embellishments, please do.
 
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Hello ewq1938,

The two witness do indeed take part in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is comprised of phases.
None of the passages that follow say what you think they mean. They mean exactly what they say.

Every resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection. What trips people up is the word "first" which they interpret as meaning 'only.' Below are the phases of the first resurrection:

* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17)
* The Male Child/144,000 (changed and caught up) in the middle of the tribulation (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)
* The Great Tribulation Saints - (Rev.20:4-6)[/QUOTE]
John 14:1-3 was Jesus BEFORE His own resurrection guaranteeing His disciples that there would be a place for them in heaven when they die. 1 Thess 5 says NOTHING about being taken to heaven. Both passages only note that believers will be "with the Lord forever".

There is no resurrection in the middle of the Trib. That is fantasy.
The Bible does NOT say the 2W are given immortal bodies. They will be raised up the SAME WAY everyone in Acts was raised from the dead.
The only one that is partly right is the martyred saints in Rev 20. And that is the at the Second Advent, when "those who belong to Him" are resureected.

All of the above make up the first resurrection. It is the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand years that is not a part of the first resurrection. Everyone who takes part in that resurrection, the second death has power over.
Here is how the Bible explains all this.

All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Notice, please, the SINGULAR for each resurrection. So, how many are there? 2. One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Can you honestly claim that the red words will involve several events over an extended period of time?

The blue words show just 2 "groups" in the "first resurrection". Christ is the 'firstfruits', a "group" so to speak. And THEN, when He comes (Second Advent) everyone else in the saved group.

Now, if you can unpack this without all those distracting embellishments, please do.
 
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Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the othe""".[/QUOTE]

Yep, God keep out Israel from 10 plagues to agypt[/QUOTE]

"""Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."""

Yes
We all agree he comes in power on horses AFTER the trib WITH the saints ALREADY in heaven for 7 years.
"""Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"""

Yes
AFTER the trib ANGELS GATHER,not Jesus.

That gathering is IN HEAVEN as your verse acknowledges.

I hope you are not trying to make that gathering in heaven by angels into the rapture.
 
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Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/QUOTE]

Yep, God keep out Israel from 10 plagues to agypt[/QUOTE]
they were gathered and delivered into testing, chastisement, attacking, and wandered in circles for 40 years. And placed into the ot law, with animal sacrifice.

Is that what you think God is going to do for you?
 
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Obviously no since nothing in my post mentioned anything like that. According to pretrib, the 2w are not part of the first resurrection and why that is important is because they are actually part of the first resurrection because that happens at the one and only second coming not 7 years before it. This is one out of many reason where pretrib contradicts the bible and therefore is known absolutely to be wrong.






It is obviously not my conclusion at all. All the saved will become immortal on the same day. The dead will resurrect first, then the living will be changed. This happens once the 7th trumpet sounds.
re read it.
Only the dead in christ are raised.

Read rev 14.
It totally and completely destroys any hope of only 1 coming.

Unless you think
1. Jesus comes sitting on a cloud with a sickle in his hand is actually Jesus coming to earth with no made up rest stop so he can get off his horse, get a sickle out if nowhere
2 and take time back to mid trib, while millions of horses are suspended in the sky,and gather main body of messianic Jews.
Do they then wait in the clouds for 3.5 years?
What does he do after that rest stop and time travel? Continue on to earth?

Pretty bizarre what you need to happen to satisfy postrib rapture error.
 
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None of the passages that follow say what you think they mean. They mean exactly what they say.

Every resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection. What trips people up is the word "first" which they interpret as meaning 'only.' Below are the phases of the first resurrection:

* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17)
* The Male Child/144,000 (changed and caught up) in the middle of the tribulation (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)
* The Great Tribulation Saints - (Rev.20:4-6)
John 14:1-3 was Jesus BEFORE His own resurrection guaranteeing His disciples that there would be a place for them in heaven when they die. 1 Thess 5 says NOTHING about being taken to heaven. Both passages only note that believers will be "with the Lord forever".

There is no resurrection in the middle of the Trib. That is fantasy.
The Bible does NOT say the 2W are given immortal bodies. They will be raised up the SAME WAY everyone in Acts was raised from the dead.
The only one that is partly right is the martyred saints in Rev 20. And that is the at the Second Advent, when "those who belong to Him" are resureected.


Here is how the Bible explains all this.

All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent.

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Notice, please, the SINGULAR for each resurrection. So, how many are there? 2. One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Can you honestly claim that the red words will involve several events over an extended period of time?

The blue words show just 2 "groups" in the "first resurrection". Christ is the 'firstfruits', a "group" so to speak. And THEN, when He comes (Second Advent) everyone else in the saved group.

Now, if you can unpack this without all those distracting embellishments, please do.
your " no heaven " theory has problems.

Jesus was resurrected and raptured to heaven in acts 1.

Jesus preached the Gospel to those in paradise and resurrected them to be taken to heaven.

THEY along with Jesus are firstfruits. THEY are in heaven now IN RESURRECTED glorified bodies.
Main harvest is next....the pretrib rapture.

The 2 witnesses are a rabbit trail.
They do fit pretrib.
They need some verses to be omitted or reframed to fit a "no heaven" theory.

The no heaven theory is poorly thought out.
 
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AFTER the trib ANGELS GATHER,not Jesus.
Right. Just like John 4-
1 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John —
2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples
 
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your " no heaven " theory has problems.
Inform me of these "problems", please.

Jesus was resurrected and raptured to heaven in acts 1.
Not a problem in mh theology. Of course He was. I believe everyone understands Acts 1.

Jesus preached the Gospel to those in paradise and resurrected them to be taken to heaven.
Oh, I see. It's this is a problem for your theology, not mine. Please provide the verse/passage that shows clearly that they were given immortal bodies when taken to heaven.

THEY along with Jesus are firstfruits.
OK, another big problem with your theology. The Bible says nothing about your claim. In fact, concerning the singular resurrection of saved people, Jesus is described as the "firstfruits" of that resurrection. So, what verse/passage says what you claim here?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

If more than Christ were "firstfruits", then Paul would have acknowledged that. And he didn't. The verse is clear that Jesus wa the first to receive an immortal body, since His earthly body wasn't immortal. Following His resurrection, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people, will receive their immortal bodies. And that will happen "when He comes".

Sounds just like 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered (rapture) to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

I noticed that you haven't taken up my challenge to quote this verse but put in the parentheses YOUR definition of "coming" and "gathered".

THEY are in heaven now IN RESURRECTED glorified bodies.
Verse/passage please. Otherwise, there is no reason to believe your claim.

Main harvest is next....the pretrib rapture.
Again, please show any verse that makes clear that this singular "first" resurrection is done in stages.

The 2 witnesses are a rabbit trail.
They do fit pretrib.
No, they "fit" only because of the claim that all the OT believers in Paradise (Abraham's Bosom) got immortal bodies when Jesus took them to heaven. Until you prove your claim with verses/passages, you have no support from Scripture. Just an opinion based on presumption.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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OK, another big problem with your theology. The Bible says nothing about your claim. In fact, concerning the singular resurrection of saved people, Jesus is described as the "firstfruits" of that resurrection. So, what verse/passage says what you claim here?

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

If more than Christ were "firstfruits", then Paul would have acknowledged that. And he didn't. The verse is clear that Jesus wa the first to receive an immortal body, since His earthly body wasn't immortal. Following His resurrection, "those who belong to Him", which means ALL saved people, will receive their immortal bodies. And that will happen "when He comes".
It never occurred to me before that the only mention of firstfruits is in reference to Christ. I very well may have only assumed there were references of other 'firstfruits' simply from blind trust of others' word for it and scholarly laziness.... :oops:!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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If more than Christ were "firstfruits", then Paul would have acknowledged that. And he didn't.
The 144,000 are called "firstfruit"... So in my posts about the two mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, I've pointed out how the "144,000" (in Rev14:4) are connected with the SECOND of the TWO mentions of "firstfruit," in that of v.17 where that verse says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (re: the WHEAT harvest)


To be clear, I disagree with Abs' take one it. = )
(IOW, I do not believe the ppl who rose from their graves in Matt27 were the ones He took up to Heaven that very day [ON FF, ON His Resurrection Day], when He said to MM "I ASCEND" Jn20:17)



[note: I've mentioned also that "firstfruit" is associated with "harvests" [more than one harvest, more than one firstfruit (James 1:18)]... NOT that their [the 144,000] being called "firstfruit" necessitates that they had to have DIED, no... and that "the WHEAT harvest" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)... not so, re: the EARLIER "harvest" which is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and BLOWING away the chaff... WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are not the "wheat harvest"]



... 1Cor
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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Let's just dispense with all the ridiculous embellishments you put into your posts.

All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent.
Hello FreeGrace2,

No, all believers from all time are not all resurrected at the same time!

* Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and that's already happened. He's a part of that phase of the resurrection

* The church is next - Prior to the seven years

* The Male Child/144,000 - caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years

* Two witnesses - Resurrected in the middle of the seven years

* Saints who are kill during the seven years - Resurrected at the end of the seven years and most likely with them will be the OT saints

All of the phases above belong to the first resurrection. It is the one at the end of the thousand years that no one would want to be at!

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
This is correct, there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, but they don't take place at the same time. The wicked are not resurrected until after the thousand years where they will be judged at the great white throne. The resurrection of the righteous which takes place in phases under the banner of first resurrection, takes place prior to the thousand years.

Notice, please, the SINGULAR for each resurrection. So, how many are there? 2. One for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each (group) in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
"Those who belong to Him" is in reference to the church, which both the Lord and Paul urged us to always watch for.
 
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It never occurred to me before that the only mention of firstfruits is in reference to Christ. I very well may have only assumed there were references of other 'firstfruits' simply from blind trust of others' word for it and scholarly laziness.... :oops:!
Unfortunately evangelicals are taught to "trust the pastor". So we accept whatever he teaches.

I'm so glad the Lord smacked me between the eyes with Acts 17:11! Now I study like the Bereans did. And why I ask everyone to provide verses that say what they are claiming.

When they can't, I know they are in error, or outright frauds.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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[ ^ timed-out before I finished at the bottom of my post]

1Cor12:12... Col2:12-13... Eph2:5-6... etc...

"quickened-together with Him / Christ" (that is, WHEN HE was)
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
If more than Christ were "firstfruits", then Paul would have acknowledged that. And he didn't.
The 144,000 are called "firstfruit"...
I'm sure you are aware that "context is king", right? Well, let's check the contexts.

1 Cor 15:23 is in the context of resurrection, specifically the resurrection of believers. Whereas the context of Rev 14 isn't about the resurrection of believers, but the 144,000 Jewish evangelists.

In Rev 14, we have:
3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.
4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.

The context is not about resurrection of believers, but the first among the Jews who will be evangelized during the Trib.

So in my posts about the two mentions of "firstfruit" in Lev23, I've pointed out how the "144,000" (in Rev14:4) are connected with the SECOND of the TWO mentions of "firstfruit," in that of v.17 where that verse says, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (re: the WHEAT harvest)
What you have done is simply CONFLATE 2 different contexts.

Lev 23:9-14 is about offerings to the Lord, from among grain, food, drink. This context has NOTHING to do with resurrection.

[note: I've mentioned also that "firstfruit" is associated with "harvests" [more than one harvest, more than one firstfruit (James 1:18)]... NOT that their [the 144,000] being called "firstfruit" necessitates that they had to have DIED, no... and that "the WHEAT harvest" is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (harvesting implement)... not so, re: the EARLIER "harvest" which is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and BLOWING away the chaff... WE / the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY are not the "wheat harvest"]
This is known as eisegesis and spiritualizing Scripture. When one mixes different contexts with "firstfruits", one comes up with quite a mixed word salad.

All mixed up.

Why do you try to equate any kind of "harvest" into a rapture/resurrection scenario? Lev 23 has no such meaning.
 
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Hello FreeGrace2,

No, all believers from all time are not all resurrected at the same time!
That's nice. So, where do you shown from Scripture that resurrection of believers occurs in different time frames, etc?

1 Cor 15:23 seems clear enough. Concerning the "first resurrection" (from Rev 20:4) we have Jesus, who was resurrected FIRST, and then, when He comes (Second Advent) "those who belong to Him".

So, please help me understand exactly who are being referred to as "those who belong to Him".

If you limit the phrase to only church age believers, how come every believer in the Messiah from Adam on doesn't belong to Him, since He died for them just as much as for church age believers?

* Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection and that's already happened. He's a part of that phase of the resurrection
Noted.

* The church is next - Prior to the seven years
Except there are NO verses that make this clear. In fact, 2 Thess 2:1 clearly shows the rapture occurring AT the Second Advent.

* The Male Child/144,000 - caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years
What verses say this?

* Two witnesses - Resurrected in the middle of the seven years
The Bible says nothing about the 2W receiving immortal bodies. That is pure speculation. Let's just stick with what has been written. Their being taken to heaven parallels what happened to them the FIRST TIME they were taken to heaven. They didn't die.

* Saints who are kill during the seven years - Resurrected at the end of the seven years and most likely with them will be the OT saints
Again, pure speculation. No evidence from Scripture. In fact, Rev 20:1-5 proves that believers are resurrected when Christ comes at the Second Advent, the same message as 2 Thess 2:1.

Rev 20 speaks of the resurrection of the martyred saints as being from the Trib. And specifically calls that the "first resurrection". And please don't be the jazz about "first" not meaning first of several, but first in importance. Nonsense. But you can believe whatever you like.

All of the phases above belong to the first resurrection. It is the one at the end of the thousand years that no one would want to be at!
What your theology doesn't have is any verse/passage showing Jesus taking resurrected/raptured saints to heaven at any time.

So there goes the theory of "phased resurrections". That is pure speculation.

And 1 Cor 15:23 doesn't allow such speculation. Regarding believers, Christ the Savior, was FIRST to receive His immortal body, and rightly described as "firstfruits" of the "first resurrection". Following His resurrection, the verse continues with "THEN, when He comes (Second Advent - 2 Thess 2:1) "those who belong to Him".

Since Christ died for every human being in history, clearly every believer from Adam on will be included in the phrase "those who belong to Him". Narrowing that phrase down to only NT believers is folly. Adam belongs to Christ, because of his faith in Christ.

In fact, every OT believer belongs to Christ.

This is correct, there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked, but they don't take place at the same time.
Of course not. The FIRST resurrection will be of the saved, following the Trib and is with the Second Advent, while the SECOND resurrection does not include immortal bodies, but a calling of all the dead unbelievers to the GWT judgment where they will be judged on the basis of their works which will determine the level of tolerance in the lake of fire.

See Matt 11:24 regarding tolerable.

The wicked are not resurrected until after the thousand years where they will be judged at the great white throne. The resurrection of the righteous which takes place in phases under the banner of first resurrection, takes place prior to the thousand years.
Correct regarding the unsaved. Incorrect regarding "phases" of the first resurrection. There is no evidence from Scripture.

Notice, please, the SINGULAR for each resurrection. So, how many are there? 2. One for the saved and one for the unsaved.
And that should have clued you in on the FACT that the first resurrection is NOT phased.

There is no such thing as a singular phased resurrection.

A singular resurrection means just that. ONE resurrection. And it occurs at the end of the Trib, just as 2 Thess 2:1 and Rev 20:4 both say.

"Those who belong to Him" is in reference to the church, which both the Lord and Paul urged us to always watch for.
So then, Adam and Moses do NOT belong to Him? Is that your position?

Nonsense. Every person from Adam on who placed their faith in the Messiah BELONG TO HIM.

Your claims are quite unbiblical.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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None of the passages that follow say what you think they mean. They mean exactly what they say.

Every resurrection which takes place prior to the one at the end of the thousand years belong to the first resurrection. What trips people up is the word "first" which they interpret as meaning 'only.' Below are the phases of the first resurrection:

* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing - (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-17)
* The Male Child/144,000 (changed and caught up) in the middle of the tribulation (Rev.12:5)
* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11-12)
* The Great Tribulation Saints - (Rev.20:4-6)
Yes, the Male is indeed caught up in the middle of the tribulation period! Do you know how I know that, because the scripture reveals it. Here's why -

In Daniel 9:27 it states that the ruler/antichrist will make a covenant with many for that one seven year period. Then it states that in the middle of the seven years, he will cause the sacrifices and offerings that will have been going on to cease. And will set up that abomination that will cause the desolation, which is when Israel flees into the wilderness/desert. Therefore, the seven period is divide up into two 3 1/2 year periods with the setting up of the abomination marking the middle.

At the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, at which time the Male child is caught up to God's throne before the dragon/Satan can kill him. When the dragon/Satan sees that he has been cast to the earth, he goes after the woman/Israel who will have given birth to the Male Child. Then it says that the woman flees out into the wilderness where she is cared for by God during the 1260 days which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period in 30 day monthly increments. That tells us that the Male Child is caught up to God's throne in the middle of the seven years and is also when Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and are restricted to the earth and is the same time when the dragon/Satan pursues the woman/Israel. It's just simple math.

|<-------------------------------------------Abomination set up---------------------------------------|
|<-----------------3 1/2 Years------------------------|------------------------3 1/2 Years--------------|
|<------------------------------------------ Male Child Caught up-------------------------------------|
|<-----------------------------------------Satan Cast to the earth-------------------------------------|
|<------------------------------------Satan Pursues the Woman Israel------------------------------|
|<----------------------------------Woman cared for by God 1260 Days----------------------------|


"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where God had prepared a place for her to be nourished for 1,260 days"

"And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

Time = 1 years, Times = 2 years, half a time = half a year = 3 1/2 years



John 14:1-3 was Jesus BEFORE His own resurrection guaranteeing His disciples that there would be a place for them in heaven when they die.
Sorry, but that is not what the scripture says! The resurrection of the church and the living believers being caught up as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is a group event, NOT an individual, one at a time event. In the scripture, Jesus says that He is going to His Father's house to prepare places for us and that He would come back to get us so that where He is we may be also. The scripture gives the details of His returning for us stating the the dead believers would rise first (all at the same time). And immediately after that, the living would be transformed and caught up with those dead who will have just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air. At that point, the entire church from beginning to end will be in the same place at the same time and be taken back to the Father's house. This demonstrates that it is a group event.

According to your claim above for believers who die, Jesus would be making thousands of daily trips to gather each believer every time one died, which is not supported by the context.

1 Thess 5 says NOTHING about being taken to heaven. Both passages only note that believers will be "with the Lord forever".
There is no resurrection in the middle of the Trib. That is fantasy.
You are correct, there is no resurrection in the middle of the tribulation. There are in fact two! The Two witnesses will be killed by the angel of the Abyss/beast after their 1260 days of prophesying and will resurrect 3 1/2 days later, ascending up into heaven. Around the same time, the Male Child/144,000 will be transformed and caught up to God's throne.

The Bible does NOT say the 2W are given immortal bodies. They will be raised up the SAME WAY everyone in Acts was raised from the dead.
False! It is evident that you do not have a lot of study on this topic. In Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, he was talking about the resurrection and had the following to say:

==============================================================
Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53
======================================================================================

The scripture above is synonymous with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, for it is speaking about the same event.

Notice that Paul says that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God," which means that we cannot go to heaven in our mortal bodies which decay. The mystery that Paul talks about in the first part of the scripture is that those who are still alive will be transformed into their immortal and glorified bodies and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be fit for heaven.

Here is how the Bible explains all this.

All believers from ALL time (Adam forward) are resurrected at the SAME TIME, which is at the Second Advent.
This stomps all over other scriptures. Why is it that you guys grab certain scriptures, but sweep the other under the rug?

Believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's wrath. Since God's wrath covers the entire seven years, then we cannot enter into that period in keeping with the scriptures and God's nature, which you are ignoring.

Just remember, the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. That's the barrier and cannot be changed.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Why do you try to equate any kind of "harvest" into a rapture/resurrection scenario? Lev 23 has no such meaning.
For starters (as I've said), I believe Jesus ascended TWICE:

--once ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day; John 20:17; 1Cor15:20) and having to do with Leviticus 23:10-12;

--and again then some "40 days" LATER in Acts 1 (which is the SAME manner in which He will also "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19, i.e. "VISIBLY," when "EVERY EYE" shall SEE Him, Rev1:7, 2Th2:8b, 1Tim6:15/Rev19:16, Matt24:30, etc)





[again, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture, and in nature; ditto for the "firstfruit" word (more than one--James 1:18)]