Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,093
2,126
113
Then Jesus rapturing/gathering ripe fruit DURING the trib needs removal from the bible.
No, it doesn't. The ripe fruit referred to are the grapes of wrath, those determined for the winepress of which believers who, although may be determined for the threshing floor, are not destined for.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I'm trying to understand how anyone that supposedly has such a deep understanding of scriptural intent, and 'reading right' spiritual things, be so confused about natural things?

I mean, if I take the time and consideration to look close enough, I can understand everything you are saying despite the formidable maze of elaboration that does more to misguide than to clarify any biblical truth.

And please, stop winking so much, I'm beginning to wonder if its an nervous eye tic... :p
I also recall someone saying "what rapture, there is no rapture"

That is not something i would personally engage very deeply.

It is what Jesus is doing next with his bride.

Postribs have that dynamic as indirect and incidental.

I see it as the heartbeat of heaven
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
No, it doesn't. The ripe fruit referred to are the grapes of wrath, those determined for the winepress of which believers who, although may be determined for the threshing floor, are not destined for.
Reread it.
Before the over ripe/ rotten fruit are gathered, to judgement/ wrath Jesus gathers those following the 144k. IOW THE 144K are FIRSTFRUITS which means main harvest follows.

Firstfruits
Then
Main harvest

They are jews.
Messianic jews
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,093
2,126
113
I also recall someone saying "what rapture, there is no rapture"

That is not something i would personally engage very deeply.

It is what Jesus is doing next with his bride.

Postribs have that dynamic as indirect and incidental.

I see it as the heartbeat of heaven
In the sense that the only understanding of any sort of rapture is one of Jesus taking believers to heaven before the tribulation, then no, there is no rapture.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
In the sense that the only understanding of any sort of rapture is one of Jesus taking believers to heaven before the tribulation, then no, there is no rapture.
Rev 14 has a rapture of ripe fruit by Jesus.

Which is neither the rapture or the second coming on horses
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,093
2,126
113
Reread it.
Before the over ripe/ rotten fruit are gathered, to judgement/ wrath Jesus gathers those following the 144k. IOW THE 144K are FIRSTFRUITS which means main harvest follows.

Firstfruits
Then
Main harvest

They are jews.
Messianic jews
Firstfuits is the choice of the entire harvest which set aside for the Lord. First in the cardinal sense, rather than ordinal, in this case. Christ is The Firstfruit (All in All, Cardinal and Ordinal; of Primary Importance).
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
In the sense that the only understanding of any sort of rapture is one of Jesus taking believers to heaven before the tribulation, then no, there is no rapture.
Also ask yourself why every postrib teacher omits our verses?

Then, when shown to them, they CHANGE the bible.

That alone should be HUGE red flags.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Firstfuits is the choice of the entire harvest which set aside for the Lord. First in the cardinal sense, rather than ordinal, in this case. Christ is The Firstfruit (All in All, Cardinal and Ordinal).
The 144k are forever cannonised as firstfruit ethnic jews.

Firstfruits aside from what you are trying to fit it into.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,093
2,126
113
The 144k are forever cannonised as firstfruit ethnic jews.

Firstfruits aside from what you are trying to fit it into.
In Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. How then, can we continue to insist that there is?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
In Christ, there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile. How then, can we continue to insist that there is?
The 144k are sealed against the flying scorpions , correct?

Postribbers would say " we are all sealed and born again so we also have protection."

Nope
Just the 144k jews and the jews ushered to safety during the trib.

Paul said tons about the jews grafted back in
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,093
2,126
113
The 144k are sealed against the flying scorpions , correct?

Postribbers would say " we are all sealed and born again so we also have protection."

Nope
Just the 144k jews and the jews ushered to safety during the trib.

Paul said tons about the jews grafted back in
Grafted back into the Root, which we were grafted into so, whatever benefit any branches, whether wild or natural, get from the root, it still comes from the root. We can identify with them in that He is able to graft us in at all, whether a branch previously cut off of its natural origin or having had no previous origin in the root. As long as we end up in the Root, which vein I am place in, whether Rueben, Asher or Zeb, is of no issue to me as long as I'm getting fed by the source that sustains life within that (family) tree.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
"""...And, 2 Thess 2:1 plainly places the rapture (gathered to Him) WITH the Second Advent (coming of our Lord)"""

What do you think you proved?
What do you think 2 Thess 2:1 proves? That the rapture occurs AT the Second Coming, which is post trib.

The rapture is a "coming"

It has always been a "coming"
And 2 Thess 2:1 proves WHEN it will come. When Jesus returns at the Second Advent.

Rev 14 has a "coming" on the clouds...and a gathering....which is neither the main harvest pretrib rapture or the 2nd coming on horses
Why do you keep defaulting to another book. Deal with the clarity of 2 Thess 2:1.

Elijah and enoch are in heaven now. The bible says so.
Yep.

They alone address your concerns about the 2 witnesses.
WhoEVER the 2W are is not that relevant. The point that you seem to be ignoring or even rejecting is that the 2W are presently in heaven now. But since they will be killed at the end of their ministry, how can that be IF IF IF there is a pretrib rapture, when ALL of the residents of heaven accompany Jesus to earth to be resurrected with immortal bodies?

Please address this.

Factor everything in and you will drop the postrib rapture model.
Only IF IF IF you will address EVERY point of mine in post #1114 and clearly prove me wrong.

Quickly

It is extremely erroneous
Is that your whole defense? Wheree are the verses that say what you keep claiming? Specificially, that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.

And why would Jesus LEAVE BEHIND the 2W when He takes everyone else in heaven with Him to earth to be resurrected and given immortal bodies?

Keep in mind that there is NO evidence in Rev 11 that the 2W receive resurrection bodies. Their physical dead bodies are simply raised to life, just like all the people in Acts who were raised to life, but died again. None of them went to heaven after being raised to life.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
i dont see elijah and elisha as a challenge.

That dynamic is easily addressed
Regardless of who the 2W are, go ahead and address the dynamic. Looks like you're just stalling again.

We all know the 2W are presently in heaven. The pretrib rapture idea is that ALL believers in heaven accompany Jesus to the clouds and receive immortal bodies and are then taken back to heaven. The BIG U-TURN.

But, the 2W are KILLED. How is that possible in your theology?

Address that.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
""""This is rich. You make a claim without any evidence from Scripture and you claim that I have failed to study the Bible. Wow.""""

Um
Your doctrine REQUIRES our verses both omitted and changed.
These kind of LIES must stop. You are only embarrassing yourself by such claims.

I've addressed all your verses, but you haven't addressed any of mine.

btw, Rev 14, your fav go-to chapter, is a summary of things. You're trying to force it into the middle of the trib or something weird.

Just as ch 11 inroduces the 2W and includes their physical death (which you still haven't explained according to pretrib rapture), which will be near the end of the Trib, even though they are introduced in the first half of the trib.

And, to point out, not every passage on the Second Coming is required to include EVERYTHING that will occur with it.

What pretrib theory doesn't have is ANY VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Yet that is your central point about the rapture.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Before the over ripe/ rotten fruit are gathered, to judgement/ wrath Jesus gathers those following the 144k. IOW THE 144K are FIRSTFRUITS which means main harvest follows.

Firstfruits
Then
Main harvest

They are jews.
Messianic jews
Seriously? Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Do you see it? There are 2 resurrections, one for the saved and one for the unsaved. That's what the singular "a" means.

So in the "main harvest" is included ALL believers from all time, from Adam to the time of Jesus' coming to earth for the resurrection and rapture.

Yes, there will be Messianic Jews, but so what? They are believers in Christ. And the Bible says that "in Christ" there is NEITHER JEW nor Gentile.

So your point is pointless.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Mem said:
In the sense that the only understanding of any sort of rapture is one of Jesus taking believers to heaven before the tribulation, then no, there is no rapture.
Rev 14 has a rapture of ripe fruit by Jesus.
Why would anyone call anything in ch 14 a "rapture"??

15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.”
16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17 Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
18 Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, “Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.”
19 The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath.
20 They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses’ bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.

Why do you think you see a "rapture" here? There is 'reaping' and 'harvest' and 'gathering of ripe grapes'. This is a summary of what will happen to the earth's inhabitants in the last 7plagues that are listed in ch 15.

Which is neither the rapture or the second coming on horses
Then why call anything in ch 14 a rapture? That doesn't make any sense. Other than to further confuse the confused.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
Also ask yourself why every postrib teacher omits our verses?
You really need to STOP with these false statements.

Then, when shown to them, they CHANGE the bible.
Just more untruths.

That alone should be HUGE red flags.
The HUGE red flags are your TOTAL LACK of any verse that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Plus, your continued FAILURE to address the points that I've just given you.

But that's the style of false teachers. They won't engage the things that refute them and they have no evidence from Scripture.
 
Jan 31, 2021
8,658
1,064
113
The 144k are sealed against the flying scorpions , correct?

Postribbers would say " we are all sealed and born again so we also have protection."
I never said anyone other than the 144K are sealed. Why don't you take a survey before you quote that which you have no clue about.

Just the 144k jews and the jews ushered to safety during the trib.
This reveals how little of the Bible and particularly Revelation that you don't know.

Rev 3:10 is a promise to primarily Gentile churches about how the faithful who endure will be kept from the hour of trial.

Paul said tons about the jews grafted back in
Irrelevant regarding end times, trib, etc.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,371
113
These kind of LIES must stop. You are only embarrassing yourself by such claims.

I've addressed all your verses, but you haven't addressed any of mine.

btw, Rev 14, your fav go-to chapter, is a summary of things. You're trying to force it into the middle of the trib or something weird.

Just as ch 11 inroduces the 2W and includes their physical death (which you still haven't explained according to pretrib rapture), which will be near the end of the Trib, even though they are introduced in the first half of the trib.

And, to point out, not every passage on the Second Coming is required to include EVERYTHING that will occur with it.

What pretrib theory doesn't have is ANY VERSE that shows Jesus taking resurrected and raptured believers to heaven. Yet that is your central point about the rapture.
Interesting
If rapture before tribulation, all believer have new body that can not die during tribulation, no body able to kill new heavenly body, why antichrist kill two witnesses?