Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

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Jan 31, 2021
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""""This is rich. You make a claim without any evidence from Scripture and you claim that I have failed to study the Bible. Wow.""""

Um
Your doctrine REQUIRES our verses both omitted and changed.
You have failed to show this false claim. But, what's new here?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Interesting
If rapture before tribulation, all believer have new body that can not die during tribulation, no body able to kill new heavenly body, why antichrist kill two witnesses?
Well, that's a question that no pretribber will answer. Kinda shoots their theory right out the window.

I guess they'll have to argue the 2W were LEFT BEHIND.

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Well, that's a question that no pretribber will answer. Kinda shoots their theory right out the window.

I guess they'll have to argue the 2W were LEFT BEHIND.

:ROFL::ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
It was answered.

That dynamic is addresses and gaining dust.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Grafted back into the Root, which we were grafted into so, whatever benefit any branches, whether wild or natural, get from the root, it still comes from the root. We can identify with them in that He is able to graft us in at all, whether a branch previously cut off of its natural origin or having had no previous origin in the root. As long as we end up in the Root, which vein I am place in, whether Rueben, Asher or Zeb, is of no issue to me as long as I'm getting fed by the source that sustains life within that (family) tree.
Yes
 
Jan 31, 2021
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It was answered.

That dynamic is addresses and gaining dust.
You haven't described this "dynamic" that you speak of. All you did was mention a dynamic.

When will you be describing what you are referring to? That would be an answer. As of yet, you haven't answered anything.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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Go away scripted troll. Bots all over this site. It's no different that YouTube. Lol
Still, waiting for you to tell me what Matthew 24 Jesus addressed there? Come on prove me wrong? You ad enough time to look at commentaries and youtube Tell me what Jesus addressed in Mathews 24 & 25 chapters. where in there is it? I said you don't know please prove me wrong?
 
May 22, 2020
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They're singing before the throne in heaven.

Revelation 14:3
3And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev. is future of that which we have not seen...yet.

14:3-4 King James Version (KJV). 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
 
May 22, 2020
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FreeGrace2 said:
I'm still waiting for one of the pretribbers to explain why the 2W missed getting their immortal bodies before the Trib and then will be killed IN the Trib.

Doesn't add up. Something stinks.

But you have "no doubt" without any evidence for that. So basically, you DO believe that Jesus leaves the 2W back in heaven while He takes everyone else with Him for their resurrection bodies then. All without any Scripture that says that.

And Acts 24:15 shows just 2 resurrections; one for the "righteous" or saved, which would be "those who belong to Him" per 1 Cor 15:23, and one for the "wicked" or unsaved.

So you are forced to split the believers' resurrection into a number of events, but the Bible never even suggests that.


This is rich. You make a claim without any evidence from Scripture and you claim that I have failed to study the Bible. Wow.

Why don't you study the Bible. For starters, there are NO verses that show Jesus taking any resurrected/raptured believers to heaven.

And, 2 Thess 2:1 plainly places the rapture (gathered to Him) WITH the Second Advent (coming of our Lord).

See? I HAVE evidence from Scripture.

No evidence that the 2W were LEFT BEHIND while everyone else in heaven goes and gets their immortal bodies.
No evidence that Jesus takes resurrected and raptured believers to heaven.
So, please tell me who has "failed to study the Bible" now.
I don't understand your rationale...He can do it in any fashion He wishes...can't He?
 
May 22, 2020
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Are you concerned that someone got left out? ...of the marriage supper. I doubt it.
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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Australia
"ek" means "out of" i.e. to be kept 'out of', not through the hour of trial, nor during, but to be kept out of. Meaning that those who keep the patience of His word will be kept out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's time of wrath.
Kept out of? Like Daniel was kept out of the lions mouth and the three faithful were kept out of the flames burning heat. Like Noah was kept out of the flood water. We too can be kept out of Gods wrath by...... 1) disappearing,
.......2) walking with Jesus, trusting Him.

Jesus protected His people through the trials. He can keep us safe through the wrath to come.

Can Jesus keep us safe in any situation? Can Jesus keep us safe in the hour of Gods wrath? If you say no....I worry about your belief, If God can keep His people safe, safe through the trials, then were is your faith? You don't need any faith for coming trials when you believe pretrib rapture because you will apparently not need it.

It is by the blood of Jesus that the wrath of God will not fall on His people. When the time of trouble comes and the world is shacking with fear it is because we believe in Jesus and His blood that we can have peace (that requires faith). Like the lambs blood that saved the first born in Egypt. The plague happened then the people were freed.

[/QUOTE] Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Kept out of? Like Daniel was kept out of the lions mouth and the three faithful were kept out of the flames burning heat. Like Noah was kept out of the flood water. We too can be kept out of Gods wrath by...... 1) disappearing,
.......2) walking with Jesus, trusting Him.

Jesus protected His people through the trials. He can keep us safe through the wrath to come.

Can Jesus keep us safe in any situation? Can Jesus keep us safe in the hour of Gods wrath? If you say no....I worry about your belief, If God can keep His people safe, safe through the trials, then were is your faith? You don't need any faith for coming trials when you believe pretrib rapture because you will apparently not need it.

It is by the blood of Jesus that the wrath of God will not fall on His people. When the time of trouble comes and the world is shacking with fear it is because we believe in Jesus and His blood that we can have peace (that requires faith). Like the lambs blood that saved the first born in Egypt. The plague happened then the people were freed.
Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/QUOTE]

Yep, God keep out Israel from 10 plagues to agypt
 
Jan 31, 2021
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I don't understand your rationale...He can do it in any fashion He wishes...can't He?
I think you aren't understanding the issue here.

IF there will be a pretrib rapture, it clearly assumes everyone in heaven will participate. But since the 2W who are now in heaven will be killed during the trib, it is obvious that they didn't receive the immortal bodies that everyone else in heaven will receive before the trib.

That means the 2W will be LEFT BEHIND when everyone else goes with Jesus to get their immortal bodies.

How does that make sense? It doesn't. It refutes the notions of pretrib rapture, since it would be preposterous for the 2W to be LEFT BEHIND.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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"Behold, I SHEW you a mystery... THIS corruptible [i.e. "the DEAD IN Christ"]... and THIS mortal [i.e. the "we which are LIVING and remaining," who are ALSO "IN Christ"]"



... this speaks SOLELY TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"] (Eph1:20-21 WHEN [as to its existence]); Eph1:10 is not speaking of "this present age [singular]"


... the "ONE BODY" that will be "caught up TOGETHER / AT THE SAME TIME" (i.e. to whom "Rapture" SOLELY pertains--not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Sorry, but we don't stumble over this as you just did. "ek" means "out of" i.e. to be kept 'out of', not through the hour of trial, nor during, but to be kept out of. Meaning that those who keep the patience of His word will be kept out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's time of wrath.



Do you know how many people have tried to use your argument above? You guys are like parrots, just repeating the same false arguments over and over. We've heard this one many times. Why do you people continue to fight against the truth instead of actually looking at what is be shown to you?

First of all, the correct scripture is John 17:15. In that instance Jesus' prayer was three-fold, as He prayer for himself, the disciples and then all believers throughout the church period. The prayer to not take them out of the world was for the disciples at that time and for them only and not the entire church period as you are attempting to use it. Think about! If the Lord had taken the disciples out of the world at that time, who would have been here to preach the gospel? In light of your claim, what would you have to say regarding the following?

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

Jesus resurrected and ascended immortal and glorified into heaven, which is what He is referring to here in that, when He comes for the church the disciples would also be resurrected immortal and glorified with the entire group being taken back to the Father's house. Then there are the other promises of the Lord's appearing and our being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. What do you do with those scriptures, sweep them under the rug? Void them out because of what John 17:15 says? What kind of exegesis is that?

I truly wish that you guys would stop repeating the false teachings of men and really look at the truth regarding these Biblical issues.



Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.
Revelation 3:10 says absolutely nothing about being caught up to meet Jesus in the sky or being gathered to Jesus. It isn't a rapture verse.

You need to look at what verses actually say and what they don't say. This is how you can protect yourself from projecting false narratives into the scriptures.

Let the Bible interpret itself and don't add to it. If you can start over with eschatology with this mindset you'll find a pre-trib rapture doesn't exist. It is not directly stated, implied, or woven in the context.

However, repeatedly there is irrefutable evidence for a post-trib gathering to Christ.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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[follow-up to my Post #1153 ^^ ] The 2W "'stand again' on the earth" (i.e. are resurrected from the dead) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot, at a time DISTINCT from when all others will be "resurrected". Why is that?? ( @FreeGrace2 )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Revelation 3:10 says absolutely nothing about being caught up to meet Jesus in the sky or being gathered to Jesus. It isn't a rapture verse.
Consider what I'd put over in another thread just now:

https://christianchat.com/threads/why-daniels-70th-week-must-be-in-the-future.200137/post-4607081



... then consider what it means for it to say "keep *you* OUT OF the HOUR [/TIME-PERIOD]..." OF something that is otherwise said "to come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." ... what does that say about "where" YOU are instead, for that "time-period"?? (somewhere OTHER THAN "the earth," perhaps?)



[note again: Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood, out of EVERY..." (and note the "location" and the "timing"--before the FIRST SEAL [aka the "INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 / Matt24:4/Mk13:5]"] is unleashed upon the world)]
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Kept out of? Like Daniel was kept out of the lions mouth and the three faithful were kept out of the flames burning heat. Like Noah was kept out of the flood water. We too can be kept out of Gods wrath by...... 1) disappearing,
.......2) walking with Jesus, trusting Him.

Jesus protected His people through the trials. He can keep us safe through the wrath to come.
I would like to point out that neither Daniel, Noah, Shadrach, Meshach nor Abednego were having God's wrath poured out on them. And it wasn't God plan to have them removed from the earth, as it is for the church. After the church has been gathered, God's wrath will come upon the whole entire world affecting everyone. In order to have a better understanding of this, I would urge you to do a deeper study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, because these will not be your typical plagues of wrath.

The word 'ek' is what I was keying in on which again means to be kept 'out of,' not kept though or kept during the wrath of God, but kept out of God's time of wrath. Those scriptures that you are quoting are not relevant to the use of that word.

Can Jesus keep us safe in any situation? Can Jesus keep us safe in the hour of Gods wrath? If you say no....I worry about your belief, If God can keep His people safe, safe through the trials, then were is your faith? You don't need any faith for coming trials when you believe pretrib rapture because you will apparently not need it.
It's not that God could not keep us safe through His wrath, but that He is going to protect the church by gathering us off the earth prior to said wrath. This idea of God protecting His church on the earth during the time of His wrath, is first because of not understanding the underlying principle, which as I continue to make known, is that Jesus took upon himself God's wrath which we deserve, satisfying it completely. Therefore because it has been satisfied, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. This principle is what many are not understanding nor considering.

And second, those who claim that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, it shows a lack of their understanding of the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments which make up the majority of God's wrath. The fact is, the church is nowhere mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath and there is therefore no scriptures which state that God protects the church from those plagues of wrath. The only groups that are mentioned as having any kind of protection is the woman/Israel in Rev.12:6, 14 who flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. The other is the 144,000 who are said to be exempt from the tormenting stings of those demonic beings who are released from the Abyss at the 5th trumpet, as revealed in Rev.9:4.

It is by the blood of Jesus that the wrath of God will not fall on His people. When the time of trouble comes and the world is shacking with fear it is because we believe in Jesus and His blood that we can have peace (that requires faith). Like the lambs blood that saved the first born in Egypt. The plague happened then the people were freed.
By your claim above, I reiterate that you have no understanding of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and that it will come upon the whole inhabited world.

The way in which God protected Noah, was by having him build an ark so as to escape the flood and afterwards repopulate the earth. Likewise, God had Lot and his family removed from the area before He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. As for His church, because of His promise and because of the severity of this coming, unprecedented wrath, the Lord will be removing His church from the earth so that He can carry out His wrath instead of protecting His church while on the earth.

[/QUOTE] Anyone believing and teaching a pre-tribulation gathering of the church, is believing and proclaiming the truth! Because the basic principle is that Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath which every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. Therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those who are in Christ. Anyone who believes and teaches that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, is not truly believing that Christ already satisfied it.[/QUOTE]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
What you have quoted above, as so many others have, is the event of when the Lord physically and visually returns to the earth to end the age to establish His millennial kingdom, which is a different event from the gathering of the church. As long as you and others fail to recognize this, your interpretation of end-time events will continue to be in error.

Scriptures Regarding The gathering of The Church:

Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am." - John 14:1-3

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep (in death), but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. - 1 Corinthians 15:51-53

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

Simon Peter asked him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus replied, “Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later.”

Scriptures Regarding the Lord's Return to the Earth to End the Age:

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. - Matthew 24:30-31

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen. - Revelation 1:7

They (Beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” - Revelation 17:14

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. - Revelation 19:11-15

===============================================================

We must be able to discern first of all, that these are two separate events. And secondly, which scriptures belong to which event. If you misapply them to the wrong event, then you will be in error regarding your conclusions of end-time events.
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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I think you aren't understanding the issue here.

IF there will be a pretrib rapture, it clearly assumes everyone in heaven will participate. But since the 2W who are now in heaven will be killed during the trib, it is obvious that they didn't receive the immortal bodies that everyone else in heaven will receive before the trib.

Which also means they do not participate in the first resurrection, according to the badly composed pre-trib doctrine.
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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Does anyone remember the segment on Sesame Street, I think it was Sesame Street...it seems so long ago.... it might've been a song, "Which one of these is not like the other?" It was a secular version of the "Spot the False Prophet" game. :cautious:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Which also means they do not participate in the first resurrection, according to the badly composed pre-trib doctrine.
Are you saying you believe ALL "saints" (who've died) of ALL time periods are "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe" time-slot, as these "2W" are resurrected?? (I don't... but it seems this must be *your*conclusion, according to your argument) - Revelation 11:11,14 [8:13]