Jesus did not say follow preachers, He said follow Me.
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I have a right to disagree with whoever I want without penalty. Only my Lord Jesus Christ because He is in me
and I am in Him and since I surrendered completely to Him long ago. I have been made a new creation as
Paul said in Corinthians. So I have an intimate relationship with my Divine Father in Heaven. And I had no
anger with that last post, I am not prone to anger. but I will say what Jesus would say. He called Pharisees
fools and hypocrites. and now we have third millennium hypocrites who have made them slaves of the laws.
And as for going to hell, I have absolutely no fear because I am in the arms of God I am living in the Spirit
while you hypocrites are living in the flesh and you have absolutely no clue what living in the Spirit means.
I am not making a judgement here it is your own words that betray you. if Jesus was here this moment, He
would have said you all the same things. So you can wallow in the flesh if you want but leave me alone
I am fine with God and always will be. And don't wait for the devil to get me, you'll be waiting for the
next millennia because I am in the heart of God and the devil has now power over God.
and I am in Him and since I surrendered completely to Him long ago. I have been made a new creation as
Paul said in Corinthians. So I have an intimate relationship with my Divine Father in Heaven. And I had no
anger with that last post, I am not prone to anger. but I will say what Jesus would say. He called Pharisees
fools and hypocrites. and now we have third millennium hypocrites who have made them slaves of the laws.
And as for going to hell, I have absolutely no fear because I am in the arms of God I am living in the Spirit
while you hypocrites are living in the flesh and you have absolutely no clue what living in the Spirit means.
I am not making a judgement here it is your own words that betray you. if Jesus was here this moment, He
would have said you all the same things. So you can wallow in the flesh if you want but leave me alone
I am fine with God and always will be. And don't wait for the devil to get me, you'll be waiting for the
next millennia because I am in the heart of God and the devil has now power over God.
I have read the thread all the way through; I respect your opinion and not a single part of me is trying to attack you at all, but this comment especially is just giving me hints of pride. You do have the right to disagree with all of us on this thread, you are correct there. But, when it comes down to your salvation and the accountability held upon you by God Himself, you do not have the "right to disagree" with Scripture ~ and not just some parts, ALL of it, including Paul and his teachings.
Let me put it this way with a quote: 1 john 4:16: God is love and he who lives in love, lives
in God and God lives in him.
That is our starting point. Whatever we do to make that a fact which is
Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.
That is the one commandment Jesus left us. This is our minimum.
Loving Him and giving your will completely to Him is the only
way we can get to that point. Therefore Love has to be in our hearts.
and not on a piece of paper. If we don't love our God and our neighbor
Than we are lying to God. According to scripture. scripture can bring us
there but it is up to surrender to Him and walk that journey
in God and God lives in him.
That is our starting point. Whatever we do to make that a fact which is
Love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.
That is the one commandment Jesus left us. This is our minimum.
Loving Him and giving your will completely to Him is the only
way we can get to that point. Therefore Love has to be in our hearts.
and not on a piece of paper. If we don't love our God and our neighbor
Than we are lying to God. According to scripture. scripture can bring us
there but it is up to surrender to Him and walk that journey
Glory to God in The highest, amen.
I am glad God found me in my late thirties. I was not looking for Him
As cradle to grave Christians, they become brain washed from an early
age. This is what you believe and nothing else. None of them have
the scriptures in their hearts, just in their minds.
Isaiah says: we will run and grow weary for our God with be our strength
we will fly like the eagle we will rise again. cradle to grave Christians
have their feet nailed to the grown. I love to be in the clouds, close to God
I am glad God found me in my late thirties. I was not looking for Him
As cradle to grave Christians, they become brain washed from an early
age. This is what you believe and nothing else. None of them have
the scriptures in their hearts, just in their minds.
Isaiah says: we will run and grow weary for our God with be our strength
we will fly like the eagle we will rise again. cradle to grave Christians
have their feet nailed to the grown. I love to be in the clouds, close to God
Hello Relic, thanks for clarifying that for me (and sorry for taking so long to get back to you).
So, you believe that the words that were actually spoken by Jesus in the NT, as well the Decalogue in the OT, of course, make up the entirety of the "God-breathed"/"God-inspired" word of God, and that the rest of the Bible (the Apostles' "Epistles", as well all of the words in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts that are ~not~ printed with red ink, + the vast majority of the OT) is simply a collection of man's best musings about the Divine
This is going to seem a bit of an odd question, but if you do not believe that the Bible, as a whole, is the inspired word of God ( that the Holy Spirit superintended its writing, from cover to cover), then how can you be sure that the words in red are actually Jesus' words After all, every word in the Bible, even the ones in red ink, were written by men, not by God.
Thanks!
~Deut
So, you believe that the words that were actually spoken by Jesus in the NT, as well the Decalogue in the OT, of course, make up the entirety of the "God-breathed"/"God-inspired" word of God, and that the rest of the Bible (the Apostles' "Epistles", as well all of the words in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Acts that are ~not~ printed with red ink, + the vast majority of the OT) is simply a collection of man's best musings about the Divine
This is going to seem a bit of an odd question, but if you do not believe that the Bible, as a whole, is the inspired word of God ( that the Holy Spirit superintended its writing, from cover to cover), then how can you be sure that the words in red are actually Jesus' words
After all, every word in the Bible, even the ones in red ink, were written by men, not by God.Thanks!
~Deut
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Please allow me to ask you this since you are so gracious with your post. In your lifetime would you not
want to be sitting in the heart of God. It is for us to surrender our will to God. It is only then that we start
to get near to God. Paul in 1 Corinthians says that when we come near to God we become a new creation.
We allow ourselves to have an intimate relationship with God. Like He is our Divine Daddy. We become
one in Him and He is in us. All this is in the Spirit. All is in scripture. This is the road I took. If you would rather
stay in the flesh and have your feet nailed to the ground then is words you can stay with. If you go to a higher
place like It says in Isaiah. We will run and not grow weary for our God will be our strength, we will fly like the
eagle, we will rise again. In my view, I believe that scripture should be internalize so God is in you not
intellectualize where words stay in the brain and not the heart. That is only an opinion.
Peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be in you always.
want to be sitting in the heart of God. It is for us to surrender our will to God. It is only then that we start
to get near to God. Paul in 1 Corinthians says that when we come near to God we become a new creation.
We allow ourselves to have an intimate relationship with God. Like He is our Divine Daddy. We become
one in Him and He is in us. All this is in the Spirit. All is in scripture. This is the road I took. If you would rather
stay in the flesh and have your feet nailed to the ground then is words you can stay with. If you go to a higher
place like It says in Isaiah. We will run and not grow weary for our God will be our strength, we will fly like the
eagle, we will rise again. In my view, I believe that scripture should be internalize so God is in you not
intellectualize where words stay in the brain and not the heart. That is only an opinion.
Peace and love of our Lord Jesus Christ be in you always.
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If I am being honest, I truly think this conversation is being blown out of proportion and complicated 1000 times more than it has to be. It is very, very simple, in my opinion. Some may disagree with me, and that is fine. Yes, it is a complex topic, but I think we are all digging a little too much. The answer, to me, is very simple. (No, I don't use fancy words and sentences, nor am I an expert in all historical, contextual and linguistic means of the Bible, but I know the Holy Spirit. And He is teaching me, and I hope that everyone will be receptive to my message.)
Let's start with 2 Timothy 3: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (v. 16) To me, this passage is as clear as the sky is blue. "All Scripture:" Every single letter, word, sentence and paragraph of the Bible has been breathed out and authored by God, the Almighty, the one True God. So... Paul's words? Breathed out by God. Matthew's words? Breathed out by God. John's words? Breathed out by God. They are all words FROM GOD, not them. HOW in the world would any believer think it is okay to deny the infallibility of something that has been breathed out by the Holy Spirit? That is a serious, serious problem. And a serious statement to make.
"And profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training:" Every single letter, word, sentence and paragraph exists (from God) to teach us, correct us, and train us. Does it say inspire us? Does it say to guide you and you can accept if you like what it is saying? No, it says that without a doubt, no arguing it, that the entirety and fullness of Scripture is meant to teach us, show us right from wrong, and work on us so that we can understand and live our lives accordingly. There isn't a choice here. 1 Timothy is not giving us an option. There is not a single place in the Bible that tells us we are able to/should pick and choose what we deem as acceptable authoritatively in Scripture. All books are of equal importance, all books are of equal truth.
Are any of the people who physically wrote the books of the Bible our Savior, our Teacher, our God? No. They aren't. Thankfully, I think we can all agree on that. Scripture comes from God. All of it. Period. These people were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit to provide us with the Truth in all matters, for all things. Come on, people!! Read 2 Peter 1. Peter tells us in verse 20 that we "must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." I know that some people will probably respond and say "well, that is regarding prophecy, so doesn't apply here;" this is true, but the Holy Spirit has truly led me to believe that there is no reason as to why this would be any different for the Truth and validity of all Scripture in general.
I do firmly believe, though, that we are to test everything we hear (1 John 4:1). We are not to idolize and praise the preacher; we are to idolize and praise Jesus Christ. I don't praise Paul for what he wrote, I praise God for it. But, do I doubt, deny, or question what Paul said because he was a mere person? No, because I have been told in the Holy Scriptures that God breathed within him the Truth to share with us.
In Revelation, John bent down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed him such marvelous things and the angel said: "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!" We have our own prophets and literal-writers of the Scriptures telling us many times not to praise them, but to praise God. So, I get that point. I do. At the same time, though, we all know that God sends people to share, preach, evangelize, and minister; that is literally the purpose of our existence as believers. SO, it doesn't make sense to say "well Jesus wasn't physically a part of that, so I just can't believe it and abide by it faithfully." No, He can and does work within people. He gave us a job and that is to share the Word, just as the prophets did, including Paul. BUT, He made sure to let us know that we are to test what we hear and test the spirits to see if they are of/from God; clearly, there is a way to decipher this very issue we are discussing.
In regards to the whole "law" debate, I truly feel that we are not to abandon our efforts in becoming better people, who bear good and godly fruit. Yes, we have been freed from the law, (Romans 6:14), we are under grace, not the law, but do you know how many times that Christ instructed us and told us to bear good fruit, BE the light of God, and SHOW people what it means to love and know Christ? Just because we are "free from the law" does not mean we are excused from obeying and living according to what is righteous and good. We should be living according to what has been breathed out by God, and that is... ALL SCRIPTURE (Not just the Gospels.)
I am sorry for this long message ~ I just wanted to get off my chest everything I felt about the issue. I do not mean to argue anyone, nor am I trying to impose my opinions; I just want to share with everyone what the Holy Spirit makes me feel regarding the matter.
God bless you all, and may He truly give us all the wisdom necessary in understanding this question. Amen.
Let's start with 2 Timothy 3: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness..." (v. 16) To me, this passage is as clear as the sky is blue. "All Scripture:" Every single letter, word, sentence and paragraph of the Bible has been breathed out and authored by God, the Almighty, the one True God. So... Paul's words? Breathed out by God. Matthew's words? Breathed out by God. John's words? Breathed out by God. They are all words FROM GOD, not them. HOW in the world would any believer think it is okay to deny the infallibility of something that has been breathed out by the Holy Spirit? That is a serious, serious problem. And a serious statement to make.
"And profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training:" Every single letter, word, sentence and paragraph exists (from God) to teach us, correct us, and train us. Does it say inspire us? Does it say to guide you and you can accept if you like what it is saying? No, it says that without a doubt, no arguing it, that the entirety and fullness of Scripture is meant to teach us, show us right from wrong, and work on us so that we can understand and live our lives accordingly. There isn't a choice here. 1 Timothy is not giving us an option. There is not a single place in the Bible that tells us we are able to/should pick and choose what we deem as acceptable authoritatively in Scripture. All books are of equal importance, all books are of equal truth.
Are any of the people who physically wrote the books of the Bible our Savior, our Teacher, our God? No. They aren't. Thankfully, I think we can all agree on that. Scripture comes from God. All of it. Period. These people were divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit to provide us with the Truth in all matters, for all things. Come on, people!! Read 2 Peter 1. Peter tells us in verse 20 that we "must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation of things. For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit." I know that some people will probably respond and say "well, that is regarding prophecy, so doesn't apply here;" this is true, but the Holy Spirit has truly led me to believe that there is no reason as to why this would be any different for the Truth and validity of all Scripture in general.
I do firmly believe, though, that we are to test everything we hear (1 John 4:1). We are not to idolize and praise the preacher; we are to idolize and praise Jesus Christ. I don't praise Paul for what he wrote, I praise God for it. But, do I doubt, deny, or question what Paul said because he was a mere person? No, because I have been told in the Holy Scriptures that God breathed within him the Truth to share with us.
In Revelation, John bent down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed him such marvelous things and the angel said: "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!" We have our own prophets and literal-writers of the Scriptures telling us many times not to praise them, but to praise God. So, I get that point. I do. At the same time, though, we all know that God sends people to share, preach, evangelize, and minister; that is literally the purpose of our existence as believers. SO, it doesn't make sense to say "well Jesus wasn't physically a part of that, so I just can't believe it and abide by it faithfully." No, He can and does work within people. He gave us a job and that is to share the Word, just as the prophets did, including Paul. BUT, He made sure to let us know that we are to test what we hear and test the spirits to see if they are of/from God; clearly, there is a way to decipher this very issue we are discussing.
In regards to the whole "law" debate, I truly feel that we are not to abandon our efforts in becoming better people, who bear good and godly fruit. Yes, we have been freed from the law, (Romans 6:14), we are under grace, not the law, but do you know how many times that Christ instructed us and told us to bear good fruit, BE the light of God, and SHOW people what it means to love and know Christ? Just because we are "free from the law" does not mean we are excused from obeying and living according to what is righteous and good. We should be living according to what has been breathed out by God, and that is... ALL SCRIPTURE (Not just the Gospels.)
I am sorry for this long message ~ I just wanted to get off my chest everything I felt about the issue. I do not mean to argue anyone, nor am I trying to impose my opinions; I just want to share with everyone what the Holy Spirit makes me feel regarding the matter.
God bless you all, and may He truly give us all the wisdom necessary in understanding this question. Amen.
I do want to be sitting in the heart of God, and I pray every single day that the Lord helps me to do that.
Just because someone takes what Paul, Peter, Timothy, John, etc. say seriously, does not mean that their feet are nailed the ground. It means that they are aware and in tune with the fact that they were used by God to help us get to the point you are speaking of. It seems like there is a disconnect here; everyone will agree that we are not to be of this world, that we are to live our lives according to God's love, etc.; it seems, though, like you are saying if one believes in what the writers of Scripture said as infallible, we are doing something wrong. God spoke through them; those weren't their words, they were God's. So, obeying what they say, is obeying God, not them as human beings. God bless you, sibling. I am glad we can talk through this peacefully.
Just because someone takes what Paul, Peter, Timothy, John, etc. say seriously, does not mean that their feet are nailed the ground. It means that they are aware and in tune with the fact that they were used by God to help us get to the point you are speaking of. It seems like there is a disconnect here; everyone will agree that we are not to be of this world, that we are to live our lives according to God's love, etc.; it seems, though, like you are saying if one believes in what the writers of Scripture said as infallible, we are doing something wrong. God spoke through them; those weren't their words, they were God's. So, obeying what they say, is obeying God, not them as human beings. God bless you, sibling. I am glad we can talk through this peacefully.
Well you know it is your choice and I tell you truly if your mind is strictly on words that is where you stay.
You take the path of Pharisees who argue and re argue and so on. This is what Jesus died for because He
took the high road. He took the Crist crucified option. Only love will bring us higher; words never will.
sadly you have only two choices. Get nowhere with intellectualization or fly like the eagle and meet God
in the cloud as scripture says. Please beware. In very many cases words become the God of a majority.
You take the path of Pharisees who argue and re argue and so on. This is what Jesus died for because He
took the high road. He took the Crist crucified option. Only love will bring us higher; words never will.
sadly you have only two choices. Get nowhere with intellectualization or fly like the eagle and meet God
in the cloud as scripture says. Please beware. In very many cases words become the God of a majority.
@Relic , I am not intellectualizing anything. It is Holy Scripture...that is meant to be listened to, obeyed, and LIVED. I am just really confused about where you are coming from. I am not trying to argue; I am actually trying to help you see that it is okay to listen to what Paul and the prophets said. It is what you should do. Not idolize them, just listen. Because it was God who spoke through them ~ do you not want to listen to what God has spoken? It is seeming like you feel that one cannot obey the Scriptures and live according to Christ's commandment of love.
Relic is right that we must not take any man's word for explaining God's ways.
I was told that all scripture, including all of the OT was of God and to understand I must understand the OT. I was steeped in the NT and what my church told me but I believed the NT was truth and the OT contained things (light the sacrificial system) that wasn't truth any longer. I was told it was of God and God was truth. If I saw disagreements between the OT and NT then they said I needed to study for God is one and all scripture must agree.
So I began studying. They were right! Many things accepted in main stream religion is not. The occult has crept in and the mess is deep. It started so far back that changing the Sabbath to the day they worshiped the sun or Sunday, saying Mary changed it, was the beginning.
I can almost hear people saying I must believe that we should slaughter animals, in their ignorance of scripture!!!
I was told that all scripture, including all of the OT was of God and to understand I must understand the OT. I was steeped in the NT and what my church told me but I believed the NT was truth and the OT contained things (light the sacrificial system) that wasn't truth any longer. I was told it was of God and God was truth. If I saw disagreements between the OT and NT then they said I needed to study for God is one and all scripture must agree.
So I began studying. They were right! Many things accepted in main stream religion is not. The occult has crept in and the mess is deep. It started so far back that changing the Sabbath to the day they worshiped the sun or Sunday, saying Mary changed it, was the beginning.
I can almost hear people saying I must believe that we should slaughter animals, in their ignorance of scripture!!!
I understand that; but there is a difference between taking a man's word to explain God's ways and acknowledging that the entirety of the Scriptures exist to share with us the Truth. Apparently, my mind isn't processing this correctly. I don't read what Paul says and glorify him, I just take what he says seriously because I know he was being used by God to share with us the reality of the Word.
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Hello again @Relic, I forgot to comment on the part of your post that I highlighted in bold above (in post #90), "many folks have turned Paul's letters and other peoples letters into laws".
What you said there makes it sound like there may be more than a just a scant few individuals who believe what you do. The fact is however, there isn't a single church within Christendom that does. IOW, there are no Catholic churches (RCC, EOC or OOC), nor are there any Protestant churches (be they denominational or non-denominational) that have ever believed/taught what you do about the Epistles. Rather, ALL believe/teach that the Epistles are the inspired/breathed word of God, just like the Gospels are, and that the ~entirety~ of the Bible (not just the words in red ink + the Decalogue) is, therefore, binding upon the conscience, the hearts and the minds of men.
As I'm certain you know, there are many things concerning the Christian faith that the lot of us argue and bicker over (ad infinitum, ad nauseam), but when the entirety of the Christian church walks in lockstep together and speaks with ONE voice as ONE church in perfect unity with one another throughout history, it should (I would think) be ample reason to give a dissenter pause.
God bless you!
~Deut
p.s. - I'm certainly not denying that there are differences between the Gospels and the Epistles, but that's how it was meant to be, don't you think For instance, I believe that the Gospels are there to (principally) teach us about Jesus, that the Acts of the Apostles were written to teach us about the church, and that the Epistles were written to teach us about how we are to live the Christian life in the church age/in the age of grace.
Another thing that comes to mind is this, Jesus was born under the law and He taught under the law, and He was sent to Israel alone, as the church age/age of grace did not begin until after He died. So, while the OT, the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles were all written for somewhat different reasons, it doesn't mean that one part of the Bible is more important, generally speaking, than another part is. God gave ALL of it to us because we need to know all of it
What you said there makes it sound like there may be more than a just a scant few individuals who believe what you do. The fact is however, there isn't a single church within Christendom that does. IOW, there are no Catholic churches (RCC, EOC or OOC), nor are there any Protestant churches (be they denominational or non-denominational) that have ever believed/taught what you do about the Epistles. Rather, ALL believe/teach that the Epistles are the inspired/breathed word of God, just like the Gospels are, and that the ~entirety~ of the Bible (not just the words in red ink + the Decalogue) is, therefore, binding upon the conscience, the hearts and the minds of men.
As I'm certain you know, there are many things concerning the Christian faith that the lot of us argue and bicker over (ad infinitum, ad nauseam), but when the entirety of the Christian church walks in lockstep together and speaks with ONE voice as ONE church in perfect unity with one another throughout history, it should (I would think) be ample reason to give a dissenter pause.
God bless you!
~Deut
p.s. - I'm certainly not denying that there are differences between the Gospels and the Epistles, but that's how it was meant to be, don't you think
For instance, I believe that the Gospels are there to (principally) teach us about Jesus, that the Acts of the Apostles were written to teach us about the church, and that the Epistles were written to teach us about how we are to live the Christian life in the church age/in the age of grace. Another thing that comes to mind is this, Jesus was born under the law and He taught under the law, and He was sent to Israel alone, as the church age/age of grace did not begin until after He died. So, while the OT, the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles were all written for somewhat different reasons, it doesn't mean that one part of the Bible is more important, generally speaking, than another part is. God gave ALL of it to us because we need to know all of it
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Here are some verses about love written by Paul in Romans 12 relating to our love being without hypocrisy (vs 9) and then Paul goes on to describe attributes of love without hypocrisy (vss 10-21):
Romans 12:
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
Romans 12:
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
10 Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
16 Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.