Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

[gb9]

Have you forgotten that I asked you a question and you answered it with this same qustion?

But, I have to ask this: why do you insist that sin is a condition from which we can't break and not a wrong choice that we freely make?

Sin is ALWAYS a choice...Satan ain't holding a gun to our heads forcing us to sin.

And with the right motivation such as a gun pointed to our child's head with the perp threatening to pull the trigger is we do "XXXXX" just one more time, what seems too tantalizing to resist in one moment becomes utterly revolting to us in the next. What makes the diff? Love for our child. What should make you OSAS burn your Licenses to Sin and just do what we all know is right? Love for Jesus. (Got that one from Joyce Meyer).

ahh, but James said to him to knows to do good and does not do so, to him it is sin.
so, by that definition, if you do not do what you know you should do in every situation. then you are a sinner.
see, there is no " big" and " little " sins.

and, remember, i am not osas, i am saved by faith and trust in Christ , nothing else.

and when i say nothing else, in,mean nothing else.

 

[throughfaith]

Are we not to exercise our faith? The two verses are saying the same thing.

//The two verses are saying the same thing// Really ? then please show me that they are . I don't mean an explanation of them . I mean post that the verses say the same thing please.

 

[throughfaith]

Nothing false about it.
What is false is your Dispensationalist nonsense:

Please read Genesis 3:15 KJV and compare it with the words of Abraham that resonate throughout the ages: "God will provide HIMSELF a lamb" and then tell me that God's intention was not for all to trust in the Sacrifice, not the sacrifices.

You are using the flawed examples of men who were blinded by false doctrines of Jewish leaders to try and overthrow God's clear Plan of Salvation which was always faith in the coming Lamb of God.

Oh so its now changed to " faith in the coming lamb " I thought you said they were ," looking forward to the cross " ? And could you demonstrate anyone was saved by " faith in the coming lamb please ?

 

[throughfaith]

Do you even realize that your Dispensationalist nonsense was invented by Darby, the man who helped spread CATHOLIC JESUIT FUTURIST ESCHATOLOGY throughout Protestantism? He is the reason for the whole "Secret Rapture" lie, and yet you criticize others for joining Catholics?

You agree that your beliefs come from SDA . I've never said I'm a dispensationalist or any such tilte or ism .

 

[throughfaith]

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed. It shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel."

"And to thy Seed, which is Christ."

"Abraham saw my day and was glad in it" because he learned "God would provide Himself a Lamb".

Not God's fault that the same false teachers who led people to look away from the Lamb to the Law for salvation are alive an well and leading people away from teh Bible to Dispensationalism.

People in the OT trusted in what God gave as what was required for them to believe/ trust in AND do .
Heb 11
4¶By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5¶By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7¶By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
(Gen. 15:1–6; 21:1–7 )
8¶By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11¶Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13¶These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Sometimes we look back and imagine they understood what we now know and understand.

 

[Evmur]

Jesus said "If ye love Me, keep My commandments, but all you arrogantly refuse to keep them...what does that say about your so called "love" for Him?

we keep His commandments ... we do not keep Moses' commandments, those who claim to keep Moses' law and don't He denounced as vipers and hypocrites and so they are for they do not keep the commandments of Moses themselves.

 

[CS1]

Yes, but:

"There is a line by us unseen;
that crosses ev'ry path.
The hidden boundary between;
God's patience and His wrath."

https://hymnary.org/text/there_is_a_time_we_know_not_when

God's grace knows that line in my own life I have wonder at times IF I too crossed it. All Glory to God He does have mercy and grace.

 

[Phoneman-777]

People in the OT trusted in what God gave as what was required for them to believe/ trust in AND do .

Sometimes we look back and imagine they understood what we now know and understand.

Kinda like us in the NT, according to James 2:17-24 KJV:

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is DEAD, being alone.​

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS.​

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?​

2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?​

2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

In the same manner the OT people were justified by faith and their works were the evidence of that, we in the NT are justified by the same faith, and our works are to do show forth that, as well.

That's the point of 1 John 2:3-4 KJV - that we're saved by faith but judged by our works because our works prove whether or not we've been saved by faith.

 

[Phoneman-777]

God's grace knows that line in my own life I have wonder at times IF I too crossed it. All Glory to God He does have mercy and grace.

Brother, if you're wondering if you've crossed it, that's a GOOD sign you haven't!

 

[Phoneman-777]

we keep His commandments ... we do not keep Moses' commandments, those who claim to keep Moses' law and don't He denounced as vipers and hypocrites and so they are for they do not keep the commandments of Moses themselves.

God made the Sabbath, declared it holy, and blessed it 2,500 years before Moses, but you claim the Sabbath is abolished and should not be kept by any Christian....

...and that, contrary to your delusional statement, means you keep zero since James says if you break one, you're guilty of all. That OSAS License to Sin will not help any Antinomianist in the day of Judgment.

 

[Jocund]

We can and do. While your assertion sounds correct, it isn't. There is no Scripture to support it.

The reality is that we live in a body of sin. Paul addressed this in Romans 7. We struggle continually in the tension between sinful desire and godly desire.

"Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." - 1 Cor 10:21

 

[Dino246]

"Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." - 1 Cor 10:21

Relevance?

 

[Jocund]

Relevance?

"Blik said:
we can't have both a desire to sin and forgiveness for the sin we want to have."

"Dino246 said:
We can and do. While your assertion sounds correct, it isn't. There is no Scripture to support it."

"Jocund said:
"Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." - 1 Cor 10:21"

I don't necessarily agree with Blik's conclusion (I also don't necessarily not agree), but a passage that could speak in favour of Blik's perspective is 1 Cor 10:21.

 

[Jocund]

It's supposed to be about the Ten Commandments, but whenever the OSAS crowd are confronted with the fact that God wrote that and not the Ten Suggestions, they invariably interject OSAS as a means of justifying their refusal to obey them.

That would keep the OP focusing on what it was originally intended to be: the question of why do people argue that our rest in Jesus allows us break the Fourth Commandment, when they don't apply that logic to any other of the commandments.

OSAS, "once saved always saved". Never heard it acronymized like that. The concept by itself appears to be consistent with scripture (consistent, meaning not necessarily the only valid interpretation).

This is a bit of a two-parter.

First... Are Christians required to follow OT laws? The short answer is no. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." - Galatians 3:28. It's not important to follow OT practices such as physical circumcision, etc.

When we look at Hebrew culture and tradition (including modern Talmudic Judaism), blood sacrifices were required to atone for transgressions with specific sacrifices made at times of the year including passover. "For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life." - Leviticus 17:11

The size of the sacrifice would depend on the magnitude of the transgression. A member of the covenant could get back into the good graces of God by sacrificing to have their sin(s) forgiven. Fast-forward to the New Testament. Christ is sacrificed to forgive the sins. There is no greater sacrifice than Christ as a sacrifice. Any transgression of the Old Law is covered by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is a catch. In order to partake of the benefit of the sacrifice, one must accept Jesus into their heart as Lord and Saviour (enter into the NT covenant). You can toss out the OT laws. They are fulfilled through Christ. The interesting part is that many OT laws appear in the NT. There are differences. Important, subtle differences. An example from the Mosaic Ten Commandments includes "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Neighbour in the OT has a different meaning than neighbour in the NT, and neighbour is dropped in the NT version. The NT version of this is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." An observer of the Old Law is permitted to lie to an enemy (non-neighbour), an observer of the Law of Christ is not.

Under Christ, you can find the entire moral guide in your heart and soul and mind, like a vine searching for the light. The NT is the trellis that helps guide that growth.

Part 2:
Once saved, always saved

The parable of the tares gives an interesting distinction between "evil ones" and wheat that are saved. Tares look like wheat but produce no fruit for the farmer. By their nature that are not going to be saved and are destined for fire.

The parable of the wheat and winnowing fork gives an interesting description of a purification process where the fruit of wheat is purified from its husk. The husk is destined for fire. The wheat itself is a metaphor for fruits of faith. The more that it is nurtured, the richer the fruit produced. A poorly nurtured wheat stalk produces less fruit. There are some passages later that talk about a trial by fire and how fire will burn away unworthy works, and a reward awaits for worthy works. Both seem to be discussing purification processes.

The "tares vs wheat" parable might be interpreted as "saved vs not-saved". The wheat "fruit vs husk" parable might be interpreted as "saved... but to what degree?" How much husk in all of our lives is going to be burned away? There is a good reason to try to be the best we can (and encourage others to be the same). What does it mean to be purified? If someone had a single true moment of being within Christ, that sole kernel of spiritual fruit is destined for salvation. But how much of that person is going to be burned away? But even with that, the concept would remain true: once saved, always saved.

---

Whether the interpretation jives with you or not, the purpose is demonstrate a form of OSAS that is consistent with scripture, and that although someone could disregard NT laws and still be saved, there is a consequence in doing so.

 

[Evmur]

God made the Sabbath, declared it holy, and blessed it 2,500 years before Moses, but you claim the Sabbath is abolished and should not be kept by any Christian....

...and that, contrary to your delusional statement, means you keep zero since James says if you break one, you're guilty of all. That OSAS License to Sin will not help any Antinomianist in the day of Judgment.

If you keep the sabbath in order to be saved or as a condition of "keeping" salvation then you must obey all thee other laws as well. You can't choose just one law and keep that one and break all the others.

Jesus is Lord of Sabboath

He consummated the sabbath we live in the sabbath era in which no man worketh for salvation [but you insist upon working, rebellious as ever] Jesus is sat down beside the Father having done all that was necessary for our salvation.

He paid a once for all price for our salvation, He does not die again every time we sin, there is no further sacrifice, so if it was not sufficient [as you claim] then we are all damned.

The cross is sufficient.

 

[Phoneman-777]

We can and do. While your assertion sounds correct, it isn't. There is no Scripture to support it.

The reality is that we live in a body of sin. Paul addressed this in Romans 7. We struggle continually in the tension between sinful desire and godly desire.

So what? Daniel was "greatly beloved" in his "body of sin" while in wicked Babylon.

The Three Hebrew Worthies risked a fiery death in their "body of sin" rather than disobey God.

David refused to kill "God's anointed" while in his "body of sin" though Saul was trying to kill him.

If only OSAS Christians would refocus their attention on Jesus and His guarantee to be a "very present help" when we are tempted -- instead of human weakness and cowardice -- they could receive eternal life.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Are Christians required to follow OT laws? The short answer is no.

Mosaic law was nailed to the Cross - the Ten Commandments "stand fast forever and ever" (Psalms 111:7-8 KJV). We are either obligated to keep them or we are at liberty to break them...which is it?

A member of the covenant could get back into the good graces of God by sacrificing to have their sin(s) forgiven.

The blood of sacrifices never procured forgiveness (Hebrews 10:4 KJV), but the faith of the individual, which was demonstrated by the sacrifice offered.

Fast-forward to the New Testament. Christ is sacrificed to forgive the sins. There is no greater sacrifice than Christ as a sacrifice. Any transgression of the Old Law is covered by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is a catch. In order to partake of the benefit of the sacrifice, one must accept Jesus into their heart as Lord and Saviour (enter into the NT covenant). You can toss out the OT laws.

What you say is "tossed out", God says He'll write in the hearts of New Covenant Christians (Hebrews 8:8-10 KJV; 2 Corinthians 3:1-3 KJV).

An example from the Mosaic Ten Commandments ...

I could show you many passages which make God's Moral Law of Ten Commandments distinct from the Mosaic Law of ceremonies and sacrifices, so lumping them together in order to nail the former along with the latter to the Cross is a popular, but usually unrecognized violation of hermeneutics.

...includes "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour." Neighbour in the OT has a different meaning than neighbour in the NT, and neighbour is dropped in the NT version. The NT version of this is "Thou shalt not bear false witness." An observer of the Old Law is permitted to lie to an enemy (non-neighbour), an observer of the Law of Christ is not.

Not a single verse even remotely suggests lying was ever condoned/permitted by God. We should not interpret God's forbearance in not sending a lightning bolt through the sky every time we sin as "permission".

Part 2: Once saved, always saved The parable of the tares gives an interesting distinction between "evil ones" and wheat that are saved. Tares look like wheat but produce no fruit for the farmer. By their nature that are not going to be saved and are destined for fire. The parable of the wheat and winnowing fork gives an interesting description of a purification process where the fruit of wheat is purified from its husk. The husk is destined for fire. The wheat itself is a metaphor for fruits of faith. The more that it is nurtured, the richer the fruit produced. A poorly nurtured wheat stalk produces less fruit. There are some passages later that talk about a trial by fire and how fire will burn away unworthy works, and a reward awaits for worthy works. Both seem to be discussing purification processes. The "tares vs wheat" parable might be interpreted as "saved vs not-saved". The wheat "fruit vs husk" parable might be interpreted as "saved... but to what degree?" How much husk in all of our lives is going to be burned away? There is a good reason to try to be the best we can (and encourage others to be the same). What does it mean to be purified? If someone had a single true moment of being within Christ, that sole kernel of spiritual fruit is destined for salvation. But how much of that person is going to be burned away? But even with that, the concept would remain true: once saved, always saved

This isn't a debate between the saved and the lost, nor it is about the degree of good fruit produced by the saved, but whether the saved are able or not to join the lost. The Bible is absolutely clear we may turn our back on God and reseat Self on the throne of our heart as our god.

Whether the interpretation jives with you or not, the purpose is demonstrate a form of OSAS that is consistent with scripture, and that although someone could disregard NT laws and still be saved, there is a consequence in doing so.

Your argument is mostly subjective...not a good basis for argument

Please consider this point: In Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, Jesus Himself contrasts two groups: (1) the "many" who allow their love to grow cold because of widespread iniquity, and (2) those that "shall endure to the end" and are "saved".

STOP!!!

At this time, please take a moment to acknowledge what you and everyone else believes:
that the "many" are the wicked who were never saved,
while those who "endure to the end" are the saints.
​

Except, that the "many" are indeed saints! Because their "love" (Greek: "agape") in them grows cold and only the saints can partake of "agape", for according to Romans 8:7 KJV and 1 John 5:3 KJV, John says the agape of God is demonstrated by the keeping of His commandments while Paul says the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to!

Now, at this time, you are reconsidering what you acknowledged a few seconds ago: that the "many" are going to be lost. When you thought they were wicked, you had no problem thinking they're lost, but now that I've proven to you they are saints, you are now stumbling over yourself to find a way to make them "saved" because of your preconceived belief in OSAS. It is the case with all who read the Bible only to find support for their preconceived beliefs instead of praying for God to show them the truth, come what may, before opening its pages.[/QUOTE]

 

[throughfaith]

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed. It shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel."

"And to thy Seed, which is Christ."

"Abraham saw my day and was glad in it" because he learned "God would provide Himself a Lamb".

Not God's fault that the same false teachers who led people to look away from the Lamb to the Law for salvation are alive an well and leading people away from teh Bible to Dispensationalism.

Kinda like us in the NT, according to James 2:17-24 KJV:

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is DEAD, being alone.​

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS.​

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?​

2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?​

2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

In the same manner the OT people were justified by faith and their works were the evidence of that, we in the NT are justified by the same faith, and our works are to do show forth that, as well.

That's the point of 1 John 2:3-4 KJV - that we're saved by faith but judged by our works because our works prove whether or not we've been saved by faith.

Yes James and 1John have a OT similarities. Because there aimed at the tribulation period. Thats why you would quote James . Who's James written to ?

 

[throughfaith]

Kinda like us in the NT, according to James 2:17-24 KJV:

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is DEAD, being alone.​

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith BY MY WORKS.​

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.​

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?​

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?​

2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?​

2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.​

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.​

In the same manner the OT people were justified by faith and their works were the evidence of that, we in the NT are justified by the same faith, and our works are to do show forth that, as well.

That's the point of 1 John 2:3-4 KJV - that we're saved by faith but judged by our works because our works prove whether or not we've been saved by faith.

So we are saved by Faith today then, and not works ?

 

[Dino246]

So what? Daniel was "greatly beloved" in his "body of sin" while in wicked Babylon.

The Three Hebrew Worthies risked a fiery death in their "body of sin" rather than disobey God.

David refused to kill "God's anointed" while in his "body of sin" though Saul was trying to kill him.

If only OSAS Christians would refocus their attention on Jesus and His guarantee to be a "very present help" when we are tempted -- instead of human weakness and cowardice -- they could receive eternal life.

This has nothing to do with OSAS. My post was made in response to Blik. Nobody other than Jesus Himself was free of sin while alive on this earth, so your rhetoric is empty.