Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.

[Ukorin]

Do not be like the men in 1 Timothy 4,
creating rules.

And do not be like the men of 2 Timothy 3, who have a form of godliness, but use false teachings to control those who are prone to sin.
Just because your control is that they will too have a form of godliness, does not make it right.
By creating barriers for people, you are denying the power of God to break chains, and placing YOUR teaching as the path to holiness,
rather than Faith and the Spirit.

I don't accuse you of being like them, but giving a warning to not become like them. The path you are on leads to that.

 

[Jason0047]

Where does the Bible say that being a winemaker(fermented) is sinful?

It doesn't. Jesus made wine that came straight from the cluster of the grape. This of course is a natural wine that is naturally already fermenting. But at the start of freshly squeezed juice that comes from grapes, it is not going to be instantly strong in alcoholic content. It takes time to ferment and the right conditions, too. Sometimes there is problems with natural fermentation, as well. That is why yeast is added. But Jesus does not need to make the wine strong in alcoholic content or intoxicating to make it taste insanely good or to make people go "Wow" that is like the best drink I ever had in my life. There was no need to make it alcoholic. Folks here wish it was alcoholic or intoxicating because they want to either justify the occasional drinking party at their house, get drunk on occasion, and or drink in public (Despite it possibly making their brother to stumble). They have a motive. And it is selfish and not selfless. Christ was all about teaching to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. He was a selfless man who died in our place and He desires us to conform to His image (For that is why we were made in God's image).

 

[ThomistColin]

No, not true, my friend. See Matthew 15:6, 9.

God gave those Laws. Stop this heresy of Jesus the liberal Rabbi who taught us to stop being so square. He is God Himself incarnate in flesh. Those commandments were given by Him, through Him, and for Him. He fulfilled everyone of them. He obeyed the laws to their utmost.

 

[Ukorin]

It doesn't. Jesus made wine that came straight from the cluster of the grape. This of course is a natural wine that is naturally already fermenting. But at the start of freshly squeezed juice that comes from grapes, it is not going to be instantly strong in alcoholic content. It takes time to ferment and the right conditions, too. Sometimes there is problems with natural fermentation, as well. That is why yeast is added. But Jesus does not need to make the wine strong in alcoholic content or intoxicating to make it taste insanely good or to make people go "Wow" that is like the best drink I ever had in my life. There was no need to make it alcoholic. Folks here wish it was alcoholic or intoxicating because they want to either justify the occasional drinking party at their house, get drunk on occasion, and or drink in public (Despite it possibly making their brother to stumble). They have a motive. And it is selfish and not selfless. Christ was all about teaching to pick up our cross and to deny ourselves. He was a selfless man who died in our place and He desires us to conform to His image (For that is why we were made in God's image).

Or, you are trying to justify weighing down the consciences of others.
Stick to the Word. If you have a message, let it come from the Word.
If your message is trying to clear up God's poor choice in wording or lacking vocabulary, then you are likely preaching from self not Spirit.

 

[Jason0047]

Do not be like the men in 1 Timothy 4,
creating rules.

And do not be like the men of 2 Timothy 3, who have a form of godliness, but use false teachings to control those who are prone to sin.
Just because your control is that they will too have a form of godliness, does not make it right.
By creating barriers for people, you are denying the power of God to break chains, and placing YOUR teaching as the path to holiness,
rather than Faith and the Spirit.

I don't accuse you of being like them, but giving a warning to not become like them. The path you are on leads to that.

Well, first, 1 Timothy 4 is more in line with Catholicism. Today, Catholics forbid you to marry if you want to be a priest or a nun and they abstain from meat on a special day. Second, I have already stated that we have a liberty in Christ and that a believer can in fact drink alcohol soberly and in moderation in private. I have said this many of times already. But this liberty did not exist before the cross. You could not eat unclean animals before the cross and you could not look at super strong alcoholic beverages before the cross (Let alone drink them), either. For there were many warnings against drinking strong intoxicating beverages in the Old Testament. Just read Daniel 1:8. He refused the meat and wine that was offered to him.

 

[Ukorin]

Remember that if a person does anything with good conscience, it is righteous, and done for for God's glory. Drinking fermented wine included.

Help those who are chained,
not chain those who have been made free.

 

[ThomistColin]

Well, first, 1 Timothy 4 is more in line with Catholicism. Today, Catholics forbid you to marry if you want to be a priest or a nun and they abstain from meat on a special day. Second, I have already stated that we have a liberty in Christ and that a believer can in fact drink alcohol soberly and in moderation in private. I have said this many of times already. But this liberty did not exist before the cross. You could not eat unclean animals before the cross and you could not look at super strong alcoholic beverages before the cross (Let alone drink them), either. For there were many warnings against drinking strong intoxicating beverages in the Old Testament. Just read Daniel 1:8. He refused the meat and wine that was offered to him.

Ah...okay. My opinion of you has changed greatly. I thought you were a tea totaller. Forgive me the assumption brother.

 

[Ukorin]

Well, first, 1 Timothy 4 is more in line with Catholicism. Today, Catholics forbid you to marry if you want to be a priest or a nun and they abstain from meat on a special day. Second, I have already stated that we have a liberty in Christ and that a believer can in fact drink alcohol soberly and in moderation in private. I have said this many of times already. But this liberty did not exist before the cross. You could not eat unclean animals before the cross and you could not look at super strong alcoholic beverages before the cross (Let alone drink them), either. For there were many warnings against drinking strong intoxicating beverages in the Old Testament. Just read Daniel 1:8. He refused the meat and wine that was offered to him.

I find it sad that you write off this Scripture so readily. It certainly applies to this topic, and to anyone who tries to "increase holiness" by adding barriers around the Law.

Also, this liberty always existed. It was the very liberty that the Patriarchs gained in believing the Promise of a Christ, as we have gained in believing the Coming of Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

Remember that if a person does anything with good conscience, it is righteous, and done for for God's glory. Drinking fermented wine included.

Help those who are chained,
not chain those who have been made free.

So if somebody rapes, murders, or steals in good conscience it is righteous? I am sorry. I don't buy that. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. We cannot go off our own sense conscience as a moral compass. God's Word is the standard for morality. For the true believer who has truly repented of their sins and accepted Christ, they will let God (Christ) (Who is the source of salvation) to do the good works within their life. These works from God (working in our lives) will include us in cooperating with His Spirit in obeying the law of love or the commands under the New Testament. This power comes from God and not from us. We are saved by repentance and acceptance of Him and then works of righteousness will in time flow in a believers life (Proving their faith to be true or proving that God lives within them).

 

[Jason0047]

Ah...okay. My opinion of you has changed greatly. I thought you were a tea totaller. Forgive me the assumption brother.

It's okay. I believe we have a liberty in Christ to drink and or to marry a Christian, and to eat at delicious steak houses in Brazil, etc. I have personally made a promise to someone I love to not soberly drink socially like I used to in Christ. In other words, it is lawful to drink, but if one is being called to walk the higher road so as to be an example for other people, then I believe it is a blessing. Not a commandment. But a choice to love.

 

[Jason0047]

I find it sad that you write off this Scripture so readily. It certainly applies to this topic, and to anyone who tries to "increase holiness" by adding barriers around the Law.

Also, this liberty always existed. It was the very liberty that the Patriarchs gained in believing the Promise of a Christ, as we have gained in believing the Coming of Christ.

The Old Testament Law of Moses has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It is no more. It is vanished away and is now obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). But it had been replaced by the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the New Covenant. The New Covenant is all about the Law of love, which is a part of abiding in Christ and His Word under the NT. The law of love includes loving God with all your heart, mind and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself. For loving your neighbor, fulfills the Law (or in our case today, the moral Law under the New Testament) (See Romans 13:8-10). Keeping God's commandments is not done so as to be saved, but they are a natural result of having been saved or when one walks after the Spirit.

 

[Jason0047]

The Old Testament Law of Moses has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ. It is no more. It is vanished away and is now obsolete (Hebrews 8:13). But it had been replaced by the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the New Covenant. The New Covenant is all about the Law of love, which is a part of abiding in Christ and His Word under the NT. The law of love includes loving God with all your heart, mind and soul, and loving your neighbor as yourself. For loving your neighbor, fulfills the Law (or in our case today, the moral Law under the New Testament) (See Romans 13:8-10). Keeping God's commandments is not done so as to be saved, but they are a natural result of having been saved or when one walks after the Spirit.

However, just so that there is no confusion, although we are not saved by works, if there is no works or holiness of any kind present in a believer's life, then they are proving that God (Who is the source of salvation) is not living within their heart or life.

 

[Ukorin]

So if somebody rapes, murders, or steals in good conscience it is righteous? I am sorry. I don't buy that. The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. We cannot go off our own sense conscience as a moral compass. God's Word is the standard for morality.

The Word is clear that no man has ever willfully sinned with good conscience.
Some have a callused conscience, but since when was a callused conscience considered good?
In Christ, we are guided by our conscience, as it is guided by the Spirit, and also that every being has knowledge of good and evil granted through the tree in the Garden of Eden.
No man has excuse.
In this, if a man acts in clear conscience, it is righteous.

I again want you to reconsider, and read those portions of Hebrews, Ephesians, and 1st and 2nd Timothy that I brought up.
I fear for you in the path you are on, and fear for any of those who are influenced by you.

It is good to preach righteousness. It is a mockery of God to add to His Word.

 

[Jason0047]

Remember that if a person does anything with good conscience, it is righteous, and done for for God's glory. Drinking fermented wine included.

Help those who are chained,
not chain those who have been made free.

While we also have a liberty in Christ, I don't think that liberty extends to Christians snorting cocaine, or in drinking tall large glasses of 100 proof alcohol. For cocaine can kill you and it is illegal and it can make you become instantly not sober minded; And drinking a good quantity of 100 proof alcohol is not good either. For 100 proof beverages can make a person quickly drunk or intoxicated which is forbidden in the Bible.

So I am skeptical of far your chain extends in your liberty. We do not have a license to do just whatever we want. Christians are not ancharists or proud breakers of God's good ways.

 

[Ukorin]

It's okay. I believe we have a liberty in Christ to drink and or to marry a Christian, and to eat at delicious steak houses in Brazil, etc. I have personally made a promise to someone I love to not soberly drink socially like I used to in Christ. In other words, it is lawful to drink, but if one is being called to walk the higher road so as to be an example for other people, then I believe it is a blessing. Not a commandment. But a choice to love.

I respect this choice.

What I am rebuking is adding to the Word to say that Christ made impotent wine, and that He and the Disciples were abstainers as John the Baptist was. None of this is in the Word, but added to it to support a doctrine.

 

[Ukorin]

While we also have a liberty in Christ, I don't think that liberty extends to Christians snorting cocaine, or in drinking tall large glasses of 100 proof alcohol. For cocaine can kill you and it is illegal and it can make you become instantly not sober minded; And drinking a good quantity of 100 proof alcohol is not good either. For 100 proof beverages can make a person quickly drunk or intoxicated which is forbidden in the Bible.

So I am skeptical of far your chain extends in your liberty. We do not have a license to do just whatever we want. Christians are not ancharists or proud breakers of God's good ways.

You see that you are straying from the heart of the matter to talk about results,
rather than the method and motive.

The result of legalism is always worthless to God, even if it resembles godliness.

 

[Jason0047]

The Word is clear that no man has ever willfully sinned with good conscience.
Some have a callused conscience, but since when was a callused conscience considered good?
In Christ, we are guided by our conscience, as it is guided by the Spirit, and also that every being has knowledge of good and evil granted through the tree in the Garden of Eden.
No man has excuse. In this, if a man acts in clear conscience, it is righteous.

I again want you to reconsider, and read those portions of Hebrews, Ephesians, and 1st and 2nd Timothy that I brought up.
I fear for you in the path you are on, and fear for any of those who are influenced by you.

It is good to preach righteousness. It is a mockery of God to add to His Word.

Let me guess. You are a proponent of Once Saved Always Saved. You believe that all your future sin has been forgiven you and that you really don't have to confess and or repent of any future sin that comes into your life. Does that sound about right? However, if you believe this, then I am afraid for you, dear sir. Because there is no real sense of right and wrong in OSAS. There is no real accountability. No true goodness. Only evil. Just do whatever makes you feel good because you are saved. Don't worry about sin. Your future sin has already been paid for, right? No. Most certainly not. Jesus said you cannot serve two masters. For you will hate the one and love the other. Paul said that shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Law of Moses)? Paul replied, God forbid. Meaning you can't sin. He is not allowing you to do so. For know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God? That is what Paul said.

As for adding to God's Word: That is a very serious charge. If you believe, this is the case, then you need to provide lots and lots of Scripture to show that this is the case. One or two verses is not going to cut it. For anyone can make a false view of the Scriptures based off a couple of verses. We need to see solid clear cut evidence to back up your so called claim.

 

[Jason0047]

You see that you are straying from the heart of the matter to talk about results,
rather than the method and motive.

The result of legalism is always worthless to God, even if it resembles godliness.

So you believe you can snort cocain and it would be okay? You believe you can get drunk off 100 proof alcohol and it is okay?

As for Legalism: I don't believe in a works based salvation and or in Legalism. I believe we are saved by God's grace and then He transforms us so as to do the good work within our hearts and lives. In other words, works do not save you, but a true faith will always be followed by works because it is proof that God (Christ) is living within you (Who is the source salvation) (1 John 5:12).

 

[Jason0047]

I respect this choice.

What I am rebuking is adding to the Word to say that Christ made impotent wine, and that He and the Disciples were abstainers as John the Baptist was. None of this is in the Word, but added to it to support a doctrine.

Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for the infirmities of his stomach. If Timothy was okay with drinking alcoholic wine, then there would have been no need for Paul to tell him to drink a little fully fermented wine for his stomach problems. Daniel had refused wine and meats so as not to be defiled. OT Scripture warns against even looking in the cup of a strong alcoholic beverage. It says wine is not for kings. It says wine is a mocker. It is says it can bite you like a serpent. There are tons of warnings against intoxicating alcoholic beverages in the OT. The New Testament says that drunkards shall not inherit the Kingdom of God and it also says in many passages that we are to be sober minded, too. So how exactly do you justify that Christ made intoxicating wine again? For there are just too many warnings against it. Too many passages that tell us otherwise. Only those who want to defend their drink want to see something different.

 

[StandingFirmInChrist]

And taking the cup (potérion),and giving thanks, He gave to them, saying, Drink all of it. For this is My blood of the New Covenant which concerning many is being poured out for remission of sins. But I say to you, I will not at all drink of this fruit of the vine after this until that day when I drink it new with you in the kingdom of My Father.(Matt 26.27 – 29)



Further proof that it was wine that Jesus drank is provided by the Greek term ‘potérion’ which literally means ‘wine cup’!



Why use a wine cup for grape juice?

Actually, posterion is not translated as 'wine cup'. It simply means cup, drinking vessel.

Nice try