Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine.
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Jason, I am one of those who don't trust the alexandrian texts/ westcott and hort etc. If it didn't come from the Textus receptus I don't trust it. Ergo I am one of those KJV only guys. I am aware there are other bibles that stem from the Textus receptus I'm just not versed enough in all of that to have any experience. I trust my bible. And that verse we just read the Pharisees are talking about themselves and the only fathers they mention are Abraham and God. Jesus even goes right on to expressing that if God was their Father etc. I can't help but notice that you spin scripture a lot and by a lot I mean everything you are talking about is controversial and vague. Most of the scripture you posted about alcohol being bad were the words drunk and in abundance etc. Posts about Nazarites and leaving out that Nazarites weren't to touch alcohol at all, but that was exlusively they IE John the Baptist was a Nazarite and then Jesus admits He drinks what John the Baptist doesn't drink.. Wine. I'm not trying to attack you I just really want you to step back and look at everything you are saying. You have to lead us around the internet and to other transcriptions of the bible and those internet pages you are copy and pasting are misleading in their wordage. I spent a large amount of time going verse to verse to verse to show you all of the errs, it was on the other thread tho
J
The Pharisees of Jerusalem were spiritually blind, vain, full of pride of life, thought themselves God's gift to the theological world. I doubt they, as a group, had any concept they were actually dealing with Jehovah in Jesus Christ, this carpenter's son with the big mouth from, ugh, Nazareth to them, nor any concept it was they full of Satan, actually doing Satan's bidding, these high and mighty, educated religious leaders, bastions of God's law. They likely really believed He was born of fornication, and probably talked themselves into calling Him a drunk. They dogged the Lord Jesus for any sign of breaking the law, simply to accuse Him, verify to themselves He's just another sinner from up North. They believed Jesus a false prophet, and He publicly excoriated them, so they would, naturally, vehemently look to fit Him into that false mold, the same way prosecutors can sometimes stubbornly fit a case against an innocent person they believe guilty. It's a most strong statement how the law was able to do nothing, in the end, that it's greatest proponents didn't even recognize their own God, His words, His works, His absolute perfection as a human being, to be most highly admired, actually. it's a study in the abject desolation, the darkness and stupidity, that comes with the spiritual blindness of the world.
1) Genesis 9:20-26 - Noah became drunk; the result was immorality and family trouble. (Key word *Drunk =excess)
2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality(DRUNK)
3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy. (Missing words- "when ye go into the tabernacle" -literally vs 9)
Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine. (Jesus not a Nazarite He was a Nazarene. John was a Nazarite- Hence why he didn't drink wine- of which Jesus admittedly drank that which John did not)
5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.(Drunken)
6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness. (proving what?)
7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.
8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.(Nazarite like John)
9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.(looks like the priests drank, and everyone was drinking, the priest thought she was drunk because her lips moved without sound. He asked if she was DRUNK)
[SUP]"9 [/SUP]So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the Lord, and wept sore.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the Lord, that Eli marked her mouth.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord."
10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree. (Drunken)
11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin. (DRUNK)
12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.(DRUNK)
13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated (DRUNKINESS
14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they went out at noon. But Benhadad was drinking himself drunk in the pavilions, he and the kings, the thirty and two kings that helped him. (DRUNK)
15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.
[SUP](7 [/SUP]And they gave them drink in vessels of gold, (the vessels being diverse one from another,) and royal wine in abundance, according to the state of the king.16) P (Wine in abundance)
psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.
17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.
([SUP]17 [/SUP]For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.) Is Bread wicked?
18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.
19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:20)
Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty. (Drunkenness)
21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.
22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks. (Tarry LONG at the wine)
[SUP](30 [/SUP]They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.23)
Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.)
Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.
[SUP](33 [/SUP]Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.25) (AGAIN TARRYING LONG AT THE WINE)
Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable)
[SUP](34 [/SUP]Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.) (Still talking about Tarrying long)
Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.
[SUP]3(5 [/SUP]They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again. (seeing a pattern in proverbs 23. It all started with vs 30- Tarrying long)
Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. (drink to someone with a heavy heart)
29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)
30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.
31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk. (drunk)
32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.
33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit. (Drunk)
34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.
[SUP](11 [/SUP]Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth
35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.
Isaiah 24 starts with
Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.) (nothing specifically about alcohol here. It's talking about sorrow.)
) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim. (Drunkards
37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down. (Drunkards)
38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment. (Revert 4 verses ago (Drunkards)
39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth. (still with the drunkards)
40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant. (anyone else see more than just wine here?)
41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed. (that's nice)
42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.)
(again it specifies while in a location, not in general)
Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.) Daniel was abstaining from anything from the kings table. Even the meat.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.
45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple. (yes this was the problem)
46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.(hence why Daniel wouldn't partake)
47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.
48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.
[SUP]5[/SUP]In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners.)
Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment. (drunkards)
2) Genesis 19:30-38 - Lot was so drunk he did not know what he was doing; this led to immorality(DRUNK)
3) Leviticus 10:9-11 - God commanded priests not to drink so that they could tell the difference between the holy and the unholy. (Missing words- "when ye go into the tabernacle" -literally vs 9)
Numbers 6:3 - The Nazarites were told to eat or drink nothing from the grape vine. (Jesus not a Nazarite He was a Nazarene. John was a Nazarite- Hence why he didn't drink wine- of which Jesus admittedly drank that which John did not)
5) Deuteronomy 21:20 - A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.(Drunken)
6) Deuteronomy 29:5-6 - God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness. (proving what?)
7) Deuteronomy 32:33 - Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.
8) Judges 13:4, 7, 14 - Samson was to be a Nazarite for life. His mother was told not to drink wine or strong drink.(Nazarite like John)
9) 1 Samuel 1:14-15 - Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.(looks like the priests drank, and everyone was drinking, the priest thought she was drunk because her lips moved without sound. He asked if she was DRUNK)
[SUP]"9 [/SUP]So Hannah rose up after they had eaten in Shiloh, and after they had drunk. Now Eli the priest sat upon a seat by a post of the temple of the Lord.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she was in bitterness of soul, and prayed unto the Lord, and wept sore.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And she vowed a vow, and said, O Lord of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the Lord all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as she continued praying before the Lord, that Eli marked her mouth.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord."
10) 1 Samuel 25:32-38 - Nabal died after a drunken spree. (Drunken)
11) 2 Samuel 11:13 - By getting Uriah drunk, David hoped to cover his sin. (DRUNK)
12) 2 Samuel 13:28-29 - Amnon was drunk when he was killed.(DRUNK)
13) 1 Kings 16:8-10 - The king was drinking himself into drunkenness when he was assassinated (DRUNKINESS
14) 1 Kings 20:12-21 - Ben-Hadad and 32 other kings were drinking when they were attacked and defeated by the Israelites.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And they went out at noon. But Benhadad was drinking himself drunk in the pavilions, he and the kings, the thirty and two kings that helped him. (DRUNK)
15) Esther 1:5-12 - The king gave each one all the drink he wanted. The king was intoxicated when he commanded the queen to come.
[SUP](7 [/SUP]And they gave them drink in vessels of gold, (the vessels being diverse one from another,) and royal wine in abundance, according to the state of the king.16) P (Wine in abundance)
psalm 75:8 - The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.
17) Proverbs 4:17 - Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.
([SUP]17 [/SUP]For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence.) Is Bread wicked?
18) Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.
19) Proverbs 23:19-20 - A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:20)
Proverbs 23:21 - Drunkenness causes poverty. (Drunkenness)
21) Proverbs 23:29-30 - Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes.
22) Proverbs 23:31 - God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks. (Tarry LONG at the wine)
[SUP](30 [/SUP]They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.23)
Proverbs 23:32 - Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.)
Proverbs 23:33 - Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation.
[SUP](33 [/SUP]Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.25) (AGAIN TARRYING LONG AT THE WINE)
Proverbs 23:34 - Alcohol makes the drinker unstable)
[SUP](34 [/SUP]Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.) (Still talking about Tarrying long)
Proverbs 23:35 - Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming.
[SUP]3(5 [/SUP]They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again. (seeing a pattern in proverbs 23. It all started with vs 30- Tarrying long)
Proverb 31:4-5 - Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
28) Proverbs 31:6-7 - Strong drink could be given to those about to perish or those in pain. Better anesthetics are available today.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. (drink to someone with a heavy heart)
29) Ecclesiastes 2:3 - The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not. (Ecclesiastes 12:8)
30) Ecclesiastes 10:17 - A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.
31) Isaiah 5:11-12 - Woe to those who get up early to drink and stay up late at night to get drunk. (drunk)
32) Isaiah 5:22 - Woe to "champion" drinkers and "experts" at mixing drinks.
33) Isaiah 19:14 - Drunken men stagger in their vomit. (Drunk)
34) Isaiah 22:12-13 - The Israelites choose to drink; their future looks hopeless to them.
[SUP](11 [/SUP]Ye made also a ditch between the two walls for the water of the old pool: but ye have not looked unto the maker thereof, neither had respect unto him that fashioned it long ago.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And in that day did the Lord God of hosts call to weeping, and to mourning, and to baldness, and to girding with sackcloth
35) Isaiah 24:9 - Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.
Isaiah 24 starts with
Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]The new wine mourneth, the vine languisheth, all the merryhearted do sigh.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]The mirth of tabrets ceaseth, the noise of them that rejoice endeth, the joy of the harp ceaseth.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]They shall not drink wine with a song; strong drink shall be bitter to them that drink it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]There is a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.) (nothing specifically about alcohol here. It's talking about sorrow.)
) Isaiah 28:1 - God pronounces woe on the drunkards of Ephraim. (Drunkards
37) Isaiah 28:3 - Proud drunkards shall be trodden down. (Drunkards)
38) Isaiah 28:7 - Priests and prophets stagger and reel from beer and wine, err in vision, and stumble in judgment. (Revert 4 verses ago (Drunkards)
39) Isaiah 28:8 - Drinkers’ tables are covered with vomit and filth. (still with the drunkards)
40) Isaiah 56:9-12 - Drinkers seek their own gain and expect tomorrow to be just like today.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Come ye, say they, I will fetch wine, and we will fill ourselves with strong drink; and to morrow shall be as this day, and much more abundant. (anyone else see more than just wine here?)
41) Jeremiah 35:2-14 - The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed. (that's nice)
42) Ezekiel 44:21 - Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Neither shall any priest drink wine, when they enter into the inner court.)
(again it specifies while in a location, not in general)
Daniel 1:5-17 - Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his hand, with part of the vessels of the house of God: which he carried into the land of Shinar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure house of his god.) Daniel was abstaining from anything from the kings table. Even the meat.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king's meat, nor with the wine which he drank: therefore he requested of the prince of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself.
Daniel 5:1 - Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.
45) Daniel 5:2-3 - The king, along with his nobles, wives, and concubines, drank from the goblets which had been taken from God’s temple. (yes this was the problem)
46) Daniel 5:4 - Drinking wine was combined with praising false gods.(hence why Daniel wouldn't partake)
47) Daniel 5:23 - God sent word to Belshazzar that punishment would be swift for the evil he had committed.
48) Hosea 4:11 - Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For they shall eat, and not have enough: they shall commit whoredom, and shall not increase: because they have left off to take heed to the Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]My people ask counsel at their stocks, and their staff declareth unto them: for the spirit of whoredoms hath caused them to err, and they have gone a whoring from under their God.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]They sacrifice upon the tops of the mountains, and burn incense upon the hills, under oaks and poplars and elms, because the shadow thereof is good: therefore your daughters shall commit whoredom, and your spouses shall commit adultery.
49) Hosea 7:5 - God reproves princes for drinking.
[SUP]5[/SUP]In the day of our king the princes have made him sick with bottles of wine; he stretched out his hand with scorners.)
Joel 1:5 - Drunkards awake to see God’s judgment. (drunkards)
51) Joel 3:3 - The enemy is judged for selling girls for wine. (passage not about wine)
3For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.
(WAY WORSE THAN THAT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.
53) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine. (against the law for Nazarites to drink wine- Think John)
54) Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.
55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God. (drunkards)
56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.
57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!58) (Drunken)
Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame. (again see prior verse, DRUNKEN)
59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (Drunken)
60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine. (Nazarite)
61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness. (Drunkenness)
62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return. (Drunkenness)
63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality. ( Drunkenness)
64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.
65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God (DRUNKARD)
67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. (Drunkenness)
68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit. (Drunk)
69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness. (Drunkards)
70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.
71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.
[SUP]8[/SUP]Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.
74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine,
teachers of good things;75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.
(Drunkenness)
3For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And they have cast lots for my people; and have given a boy for an harlot, and sold a girl for wine, that they might drink.
52) Amos 2:8 - Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.
(WAY WORSE THAN THAT)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But I will send a fire upon Judah, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]That pant after the dust of the earth on the head of the poor, and turn aside the way of the meek: and a man and his father will go in unto the same maid, to profane my holy name:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they lay themselves down upon clothes laid to pledge by every altar, and they drink the wine of the condemned in the house of their god.
53) Amos 2:12 - Israel is condemned for forcing Nazarites to drink wine. (against the law for Nazarites to drink wine- Think John)
54) Micah 2:11 - Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.
55) Nahum 1:10 - The drunkards of Nineveh will be destroyed by God. (drunkards)
56) Habakkuk 2:5 - A man is betrayed by wine.
57) Habakkuk 2:15 - Woe to him that gives his neighbor drink.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!58) (Drunken)
Habakkuk 2:16 - Drinking leads to shame. (again see prior verse, DRUNKEN)
59) Matthew 24:48-51 - A drinking servant is unprepared for his Lord’s return.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; (Drunken)
60) Luke 1:15 - John the Baptist drank neither grape juice nor wine. (Nazarite)
61) Luke 12:45 - Christ warned against drunkenness. (Drunkenness)
62) Luke 21:34 - Drunkenness will cause a person not to be ready for the Lord’s return. (Drunkenness)
63) Romans 13:13 - Do not walk in drunkenness or immorality. ( Drunkenness)
64) Romans 14:21 - Do not do anything that will hurt your testimony as a believer.
65) 1 Corinthians 5:11 - If a Christian brother is a drinker, do not associate with him.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.66) 1 Corinthians 6:10 - Drunkards will not inherit the kingdom of God (DRUNKARD)
67) Galatians 5:21 - Acts of the sinful nature, such as drunkenness, will prohibit a person from inheriting the kingdom of God. (Drunkenness)
68) Ephesians 5:18 - In contrast to being drunk with wine, the believer is to be filled with the Spirit. (Drunk)
69) 1 Thessalonians 5:6-7 - Christians are to be alert and self-controlled, belonging to the day. Drunkards belong to the night and darkness. (Drunkards)
70) 1 Timothy 3:2-3 - Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.
71) 1 Timothy 3:8 - Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.
[SUP]8[/SUP]Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;72) 1 Timothy 3:11 - Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.
73) Titus 1:7-8 - An overseer is to be disciplined.
74) Titus 2:2-3 - The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine,
teachers of good things;75) 1 Peter 4:3-4 - The past life of drunkenness and carousing has no place in the Christian’s life.
(Drunkenness)
J
It's sometimes said the "We be not born of fornication..." of John 8:41 is a jab at Christ's virgin birth being false by the Pharisees, but i don't think the verse supports this, rather the Pharisees were saying they aren't bastard children, but true children of God, as Christ had implied them of the devil in the prior verses and needing to change, to love and recognize their God in Him. But the Pharisees surely believe the Lord Jesus false, not the children of God they fancied themselves, in turn accused the Lord Jesus' power being of the devil, were very much, therefore, saying He was born of some other father than God. (Matthew 12:24, the ultimate slander of the Lord Jesus.)
J
It comes from a view of John 8:41 being a snide remark as to Jesus' birth, but this is, indeed, a stretch not called for. Though it is true the Pharisees said they were not born of fornication, that is, were true children of God, had accused Christ as being of the devil, which is the same as saying that Christ was the bastard born of fornication, in the sense John 8:41 is generally accepted. Use the word fornication as they used it or slandering Christ as being a child of the devil, it's the same thing.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
[SUP]41[/SUP]Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
They are defensive, not offensive.
Everything about these verses is in regards to them.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
[SUP]41[/SUP]Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
They are defensive, not offensive.
Everything about these verses is in regards to them.
Dr. Chuck Missler and many other Christians who favor the KJV in their preaching of Scripture clearly point out tbat this is what the passage says at face value. As for your accusations of me twisting Scripture: I would rather die or be punished by God before doing anything like that. In fact, I can say the same thing of you and others here, but I don't believe this to always be the case. Some folks just don't have spiritual understanding of the Scriptures.
I don't believe you that Chuck Missler said that the Pharisees were accusing Christ of being a child of fornication in verse 41.
This whole argument is silly. These weren't even Pharisees speaking, but a group of people who were beginning to believe Jesus, but then turned against Him.
Let's just restart, and pretend that argument was never presented. Debating over an obviously faulty argument is a bad sign of this conversation having no edifying value.
This whole argument is silly. These weren't even Pharisees speaking, but a group of people who were beginning to believe Jesus, but then turned against Him.
Let's just restart, and pretend that argument was never presented. Debating over an obviously faulty argument is a bad sign of this conversation having no edifying value.
From Chuck Missler's message, "A Glimpse into Psalm 69":
Why did He endure all of this? He was raised in a town where He was called illegitimate in order that I might be a legitimate son of God. The Son of God bore that for me on the Cross; He paid the penalty for my sins.
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2007/699/
I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them. - Psalm 69:11
They that sit in the gate speak against me; and I was the song of the drunkards. - Psalm 69:12
Those who are “sitting in the gate” are the high officials of the town, the judges. The drunkards and the best people in Nazareth both spoke against Him. (You know how forgiving small towns are!) His life in Nazareth was not nice. Recall the vicious exchange between Jesus and the Pharisees in John 8: “...We be not born of fornication…” (Jn 8:41).Why did He endure all of this? He was raised in a town where He was called illegitimate in order that I might be a legitimate son of God. The Son of God bore that for me on the Cross; He paid the penalty for my sins.
http://www.khouse.org/articles/2007/699/
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Dr. H.L. Willmington, Professor at Liberty University, wrote this concerning John 8:41 in his "Willmington's Guide to the Bible":
They once again accuse him of being demon possessed (8:48, 52). Note also their sneering insinuation, “Webenotbornoffornication” (8:41). This is but one of several occasions on which the Jews make snide remarks questioning the unusual circumstances surrounding Christ’s birth. When our Lord later heals a blind man, the Pharisees refuse to believe it, telling the cured man to “Give God the praise: We know that this man [Jesus] is a sinner” (Jn. 9:24).
They once again accuse him of being demon possessed (8:48, 52). Note also their sneering insinuation, “Webenotbornoffornication” (8:41). This is but one of several occasions on which the Jews make snide remarks questioning the unusual circumstances surrounding Christ’s birth. When our Lord later heals a blind man, the Pharisees refuse to believe it, telling the cured man to “Give God the praise: We know that this man [Jesus] is a sinner” (Jn. 9:24).