Jews for Jesus, are liars?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

Dread_Zeppelin

Guest
#1
I recently made a very good friend who is Jewish and we jokingly started to talk about me converting to Judaism. He said it could be possible (I told him about Messianic Jews) that I wouldn't have to renounce Christ as God and be converted to the Jewish community...but only through a Reformed sect.

However, after researching the posibility online I came across a very uh, agressive, letter stating Christians could never be converted to Judaism and the Jews who convert to Christianity are no longer Jewish. That means Messianic Jews are farce imposters, as well as Jews for Jesus.

I was wondering- if this is true and Jews who convert to Christianity are truely no longer "Jewish", how can you argue that Judaism is a race and not just a religion? Or is that ignored when you become Christian (aka fake Jew) as a penalty of beliving in Christ?

How do Messianic Jews feel? Are you a black sheep in the Jewish community? Are you not recognised at all? Do you do conversions?
 
Last edited:
S

Shwagga

Guest
#2
How do Messianic Jews feel? Are you a black sheep in the Jewish community? Are you not recognised at all? Do you do conversions?
Of course, I know Messianic Jews who have orthodox Jewish family and are "dead" to them.On another note about converting, I don't look at it as converting seeing as Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah and all the first disciples were Jewish, the argument in Acts 15 wasn't "can you be a Jew and follow Yeshua?" it was "Can you be a Gentile and follow the Jewish Messiah", hence the debate over circumcision.

Over the years it's been very reversed. Here's a good article on "who is a Jew?" ICN Ministries - Dr. Michael Brown

Also check out:
RealMessiah.com
Think It Thru

Edit: I misread what you said about Messianic Jews, and mistaking thought you said reform Jews because you said a reformed sect.
 
Last edited:
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#3
I recently made a very good friend who is Jewish and we jokingly started to talk about me converting to Judaism. He said it could be possible (I told him about Messianic Jews) that I wouldn't have to renounce Christ as God and be converted to the Jewish community...but only through a Reformed sect.

However, after researching the posibility online I came across a very uh, agressive, letter stating Christians could never be converted to Judaism and the Jews who convert to Christianity are no longer Jewish. That means Messianic Jews are farce imposters, as well as Jews for Jesus.

I was wondering- if this is true and Jews who convert to Christianity are truely no longer "Jewish", how can you argue that Judaism is a race and not just a religion? Or is that ignored when you become Christian (aka fake Jew) as a penalty of beliving in Christ?

How do Messianic Jews feel? Are you a black sheep in the Jewish community? Are you not recognised at all? Do you do conversions?
Jew you do not accept Christ are the impostors.

Ephesians 2
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

True Jews are the believers in Christ regardless if they were born jew or gentile.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#4
True Jews are the believers in Christ regardless if they were born jew or gentile
Forerunner, that is completely untrue. Paul himself even said he is an "apostle to the Gentiles", note he didn't say "Gentiles who will become Jews". Romans 11 gives an explanation of Gentiles who believe in Messiah - they are grafted into Israel.

Also,
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#5
Forerunner, that is completely untrue. Paul himself even said he is an "apostle to the Gentiles", note he didn't say "Gentiles who will become Jews". Romans 11 gives an explanation of Gentiles who believe in Messiah - they are grafted into Israel.

Also,
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
The scripture you quote proves my point. The true olive tree is Israel, and the Jews were cut off because of unbelief, and the believing Gentiles grafted in, and if the Jews would believe they could be grafted back in. All believer are Israel and all unbelievers are not.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#6
The scripture you quote proves my point. The true olive tree is Israel, and the Jews were cut off because of unbelief, and the believing Gentiles grafted in, and if the Jews would believe they could be grafted back in. All believer are Israel and all unbelievers are not.
Let me highlight something in those verses I was trying to point out to you. I encourage you to read all of Romans 11, lets take a look at verse 1.

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Also read Romans 9:1-5, Paul is clearly talking about natural Israel ie "my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh who are Israelites".
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#7
Let me highlight something in those verses I was trying to point out to you. I encourage you to read all of Romans 11, lets take a look at verse 1.

Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.


Romans 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Also read Romans 9:1-5, Paul is clearly talking about natural Israel ie "my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh who are Israelites".
I am not sure what you are arguing nothing you have said discounts the truth I have presented.
Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 
Y

yahweh_is4me

Guest
#8
Israel are Gods chosen ... ..
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#10
I am not sure what you are arguing nothing you have said discounts the truth I have presented.
First you said
True Jews are the believers in Christ regardless if they were born jew or gentile
Which doesn't make any sense first of all, so I was assuming you were an advocate of replacement theology. Then you go on to say
the believing Gentiles grafted in
after saying that "all believers in Christ" are True Jews..

My point is just exactly what Paul is saying here once again,
Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God has not cast away His people and made a new group who are now the "true Jews". God's covenants are everlasting and He is not a liar.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#11
I am not sure what you are arguing nothing you have said discounts the truth I have presented.
Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I responded to this verse on another thread sometime back so I will just quote what I said there, which was this:

Try to look at it this way....

Picture two Jewish people, both are circumcised physically, one is NOT circumcised of the heart by the Spirit and the other is circumcised of the heart.

Now, out of these two Jews, which is the TRUE Jew?

It wouldn't really make sense for Paul to be saying, or even insist he would be saying that a Gentile is a Jew, when he is an apostle to the Gentiles. I think he was just contrasting between two Jews and who is the true Jew out of the two? The one who is rightly circumcised of the heart.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#12
First you said
Which doesn't make any sense first of all, so I was assuming you were an advocate of replacement theology.
And you would be wrong

Then you go on to say after saying that "all believers in Christ" are True Jews..
exactly

My point is just exactly what Paul is saying here once again,
Romans 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

God has not cast away His people
No one ever said He did.
and made a new group who are now the "true Jews"
Actually He has it is the one new man jew and Gentile believers together.

God's covenants are everlasting and He is not a liar.
That is true and God will keep His promise to the nation of Israel.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#13
I responded to this verse on another thread sometime back so I will just quote what I said there, which was this:

Try to look at it this way....

Picture two Jewish people, both are circumcised physically, one is NOT circumcised of the heart by the Spirit and the other is circumcised of the heart.

Now, out of these two Jews, which is the TRUE Jew?

It wouldn't really make sense for Paul to be saying, or even insist he would be saying that a Gentile is a Jew, when he is an apostle to the Gentiles. I think he was just contrasting between two Jews and who is the true Jew out of the two? The one who is rightly circumcised of the heart.
Gentiles who believe in Christ have been grafted in, becoming citizens of Israel with the saints of old.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#14
Actually He has it is the one new man jew and Gentile believers together.

That is true and God will keep His promise to the nation of Israel.
A new man after being born again or born from above has nothing to do with being Jewish or Gentile, within the body there is no Jew nor Gentile because we are all one as in completely unity, ie the high priestly prayer in John 17.

I don't think you are getting my point though, the Church has not replaced Israel the Church is grafted into Israel.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#15
Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 10:12 For there is no difference between Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord is rich unto all that call upon his name.

Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into there own olive tree?

Romans 12:5 So we being many, are one body in Christ, and every one member one of another.

Galatians 3:28-29
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you be Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Galatians 6:15-16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Ephesians 2:11-19
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in times past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.
12 That at times past you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonweath of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandment in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you that were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God.

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as you are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of us all, who is above all, and through us all, and in you all.


We can clearly see that scripture teaches, the Jew and Gentile/Israel and the Church have become one new man. That there is only one Faith, and that we are all apart of the same body in Christ. That a Jew is not one that is a Jew outwardly, but a Jew is one that is one inwardly circumcised in the heart by the Spirit, regardless of blood line. Scripture tells us that believing Gentiles have been grafted into the good Olive Tree which is Israel, who's root is Christ, and whoever has been baptized into Christ, have become citizens of the true Israel of God with the saints, being seeds of Abraham, heirs according to the promise. We have not replaced Israel at all, but we are included with them in all the promises of God, being one with and equal to them, not separate from them in any way.
 

Descyple

Senior Member
Jun 7, 2010
3,023
48
48
#16
Greetings Dread Zeppelin. I do not know very much about how Jewish communities view Jews who place faith in Jesus as the Messiah, except for one instance when I was watching on TV the "Michael Coren Show" (a religious round table discussion program taped here in Ontario, Canada). Michael had on a leader of one of the Jewish communities from Toronto (I apologize I cannot recall his name, as I watched this particular episode two years ago), and Michael asked him "If a Jew renounces God completely and becomes an atheist, is he still referred to as a Jew and accepted in the Jewish community?" The gentleman said "Yes." Michael than asked him "If a Jew regards Jesus as the promised Messiah, is he still referred to as a Jew and accepted in the Jewish community?" And the gentleman said "No, he would no longer be considered Jewish."

Michael Coren was shocked (as was I) to hear such a statement from a leader in a Jewish community basically state that it is a worse sin to believe in Jesus as the Messiah than it is to disbelieve in God and reject religion altogether. I will not presume that is the majority view of Jews today, but even if it is a minority view, it is still absolutely astonishing and incomprehensible to me that even some Jews could have such animosity towards Jesus Christ.

"This is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'" - John 15:25
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#17
I don't think you are getting my point though, the Church has not replaced Israel the Church is grafted into Israel.
Hahaha, then we are in complete agreement. I believe exactly as you do. The Church has not replaced Israel, the Church is grafted into Israel.
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#18
Ok forerunner, I guess we just had a terminology problem. Sorry about that, glad everything is cleared up.
 
Jun 29, 2010
398
0
0
#19
Ok forerunner, I guess we just had a terminology problem. Sorry about that, glad everything is cleared up.
Yeah it must of been terminology. What I meant is if we are grafted in becoming citizens of Israel wouldn't that make us Jews?
 
S

Shwagga

Guest
#20
Yeah it must of been terminology. What I meant is if we are grafted in becoming citizens of Israel wouldn't that make us Jews?
No, there are plenty of non-Jewish citizens living in physical Israel right now.