John 3:16-18 is not about God's universal love (there is no such thing).

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7seasrekeyed

Guest
You mentioned that the platform of this forum was not a teaching platform. I am wondering what kind of platform do you think it is? In other words, What do you think we should be doing on this forum?

what is this particular section of the forum called?

hint: BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM

this is for discussing

when people join thinking they are going to teach us all, they often do not last very long because this is a DISCUSSION forum and not a teaching platform

it is a PUBLIC forum and not a private forum

it's not what I personally think we should be doing, but what the owner of the site SAYS we should be doing

that should clear it up for yah
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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I am trying to understand your logic. Who do you think that Christ died for? What was his purpose in dying? Was he successful? I would like to hear your answers with scripture back up. It would give me a better understanding of what you are telling me that you believe.

Christ’s death was for all, but only applied to those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Who is all men referring to? Who are those that believe referring to?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
I am trying to understand your logic. Who do you think that Christ died for? What was his purpose in dying? Was he successful? I would like to hear your answers with scripture back up. It would give me a better understanding of what you are telling me that you believe.

ok ... asking who Jesus died for is NOT logic. the answer is found in scripture

John 3:16 states this:




but see, you and others here would like to state that means only the elect. of course if you are saved you are elect, but you are NOT elect before you are saved.

as for the rest of your questions, please, let's not be condescending to each other
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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The Apostle Paul is a good example. The Holy Spirit was working in his life before he became a believer. Paul was kicking against the pricks of the Holy Spirit. Finally, the Lord revealed Himself to Paul and Paul became a believer. There’s no evidence that Paul had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and was regenerated before he believed,
In order to harmonize the scriptures; I believe that Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was his conversion, and that he was already born of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the fact that his life before his conversion was a God fearing life of believing in God, and in all good conscience, he thought he was doing a service to God. Paul's actions, before his conversion, does not fit the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 who thinks that the things of the spirit are foolishness. Paul was very highly educated in the old law. The natural man does not become a believer in the things of the Spirit until he has been born again and has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
In order to harmonize the scriptures; I believe that Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was his conversion, and that he was already born of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in the fact that his life before his conversion was a God fearing life of believing in God, and in all good conscience, he thought he was doing a service to God. Paul's actions, before his conversion, does not fit the description of the natural man in 1 Cor 2:14 who thinks that the things of the spirit are foolishness. Paul was very highly educated in the old law. The natural man does not become a believer in the things of the Spirit until he has been born again and has received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

no one is 'born again' until they accept that Christ died in our place and rose again

perhaps you should quote the scripture that gives you the impression that being 'religious' means the Holy Spirit indwells a person, ESPECIALLY since the law CANNOT save and in fact, actually works to expose sin

education does not save you either

many Christians do NOT walk in the Spirit nor are they led by the Holy Spirit, yet they refer to themselves as Christian

you are simply never going to get things straight until you listen to someone about your reversal of the order of salvation

and frankly, please choose Chris or John or someone else since you indicate I don't know anything about salvation

have fun
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Christ’s death was for all, but only applied to those who believe.

1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Who is all men referring to? Who are those that believe referring to?
I believe where you and I see things differently, You are giving the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, the ability to believe in the things of the Spirit, and I am believing that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is given in the new birth. Eph 2, when the natural man was dead, spiritually, and could not respond to accepting spiritual things until after God gives him the new birth. After we have been born again, we are just babes in Christ and do not start out our new life with the full understanding of the gospel. We grow in knowledge, just as a new born does, as we are taught the truths of the gospel. There are those that are born again and are lacking in the knowledge of the gospel that do not believe fully (the all men) and there are those that have grown in knowledge and believe the full gospel. (especially of those that believe).
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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no one is 'born again' until they accept that Christ died in our place and rose again

perhaps you should quote the scripture that gives you the impression that being 'religious' means the Holy Spirit indwells a person, ESPECIALLY since the law CANNOT save and in fact, actually works to expose sin

education does not save you either

many Christians do NOT walk in the Spirit nor are they led by the Holy Spirit, yet they refer to themselves as Christian

you are simply never going to get things straight until you listen to someone about your reversal of the order of salvation

and frankly, please choose Chris or John or someone else since you indicate I don't know anything about salvation

have fun
Does this mean that you are not going to stand in defense of the doctrine that you believe in?
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
Does this mean that you are not going to stand in defense of the doctrine that you believe in?
ridiculous

I am a believer after the fashion of the believers in the New Testament

what it means, is that you are looking for something that does not exist

I am not Calvinist and I am not Arminiam. I do not filter the Bible through isms or old dead men like Calvin

just go read the NT and that is what I believe...but as it is written and not as it is interpreted by those who want to argue all day long about the church fathers and various other interpreters

stop trying to read my mind
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
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what is this particular section of the forum called?

hint: BIBLE DISCUSSION FORUM

this is for discussing

when people join thinking they are going to teach us all, they often do not last very long because this is a DISCUSSION forum and not a teaching platform

it is a PUBLIC forum and not a private forum

it's not what I personally think we should be doing, but what the owner of the site SAYS we should be doing

that should clear it up for yah
yes what i say is always to be taken with consideration im not a pastor or any authority figure. im just a guy. so if i say something its always my opinion only
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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here's Peter & Paul writing to the same people:

Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you.
I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.
(2 Peter 3:1 niv)

so 1 & 2 Peter are to the same people

Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation,
just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
(2 Peter 3:15 niv)

and Peter says Paul also wrote to the exact same people.

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters.
(2 Peter 3:16 niv)
in point of fact, Peter says Paul doesn't write any differently to any particular group.

seems to me that Galatians 2:9 does not mean what you think it means. ___________:unsure:
We will not agree on this topic, been there done that many times already, so let's leave it as that.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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In order to harmonize the scriptures; I believe that Paul's experience on the road to Damascus was his conversion, and that he was already born of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...
This is completely incorrect and inconsistent with what is actually in the Bible. Before his conversion, Paul (then Saul) was persecuting Christians and having them imprisoned: As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison... And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest... (Acts 8:3;9:1). He was also an accessory to the murder of Stephen.

So how could he have possibly been born of the Spirit at that time? Do you see how warped your theology is? And you persist in your false beliefs, and have been doing so for a very long time. So in fact, there is no remedy for you.
 
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Aren't some vessels prepared for destruction and some for mercy? (might have gotten that wrong) Doesn't that mean some people are predestined for hell (or even, everyone who goes there was predestined for there?)?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Aren't some vessels prepared for destruction and some for mercy? (might have gotten that wrong) Doesn't that mean some people are predestined for hell (or even, everyone who goes there was predestined for there?)?
That would mean that God punishes people for not making a choice that was never offered to them in the first place. I do not see that as being consistent with His loving, just, and merciful character. At face value, some verses seem to suggest that is the case (as per the question Paul puts forth, to which you alluded), which Calvinists argue for, along with verses like Proverbs 16:4~

KJV: “The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

NIV: “The LORD works out everything for his own ends–even the wicked for a day of disaster.”

NLT: “The LORD has made everything for his own purposes, even the wicked for a day of disaster.”

ESV: “The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.”

Juxtapositioned against Psalm 145:9 “The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.”

And

1 John 2:2
Christ “is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world

Romans 5:18:
“Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the
result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men
Romans 11:32: “For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all

John 12:32:
“For Christ’ love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all…”

Titus 2:11:
“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men…”

Hebrews 2:9:
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor
because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone
It seems contradictory, unless you look at the root of the Hebrew word translated about various as “everything for its purpose”, “all things for himself”, and “everything for his own”. None of these translations capture the meaning of the Hebrew (ma’aneh). The literal translation of the word ma’aneh is “give an answer to” or “response”. So the phrase “all things for himself” should read “all things to give an answer to himself” or “all things to give a response to himself”. In other words, everyone is responsible for what they do and will be called into account, even the wicked for the day of distress.

Joel 2:28, 32:
“I will pour out my Spirit on all people… And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved

Revelation 22:17:
The Spirit and the bride say, ‘Come!’ And let him who hears say, ‘Come!’ Whoever is
thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of water of life”

1 Timothy 2:3-6
“This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men…”


John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

Yes, God makes it possible. No, I am not a universalist :)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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ok ... asking who Jesus died for is NOT logic. the answer is found in scripture

John 3:16 states this:




but see, you and others here would like to state that means only the elect. of course if you are saved you are elect, but you are NOT elect before you are saved.

as for the rest of your questions, please, let's not be condescending to each other
Luke 5:32

“I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Who are righteous before God?

None but Thee, lord, No not one.
Romans 3:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Who are sinners? ALL are sinners, so whatever we call it elect or non-elect are sinners before God but unless a Calvinist says ALL means ALL elect and ALL non-elect are righteous? If so ALL means ALL, then Christ died once for ALL.

Romans 3:23 King James Version (KJV)
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2 Corinthians 5:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 For whether we be beside ourselves, it is to God: or whether we be sober, it is for your cause.
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
King James Version (KJV)
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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I believe where you and I see things differently, You are giving the natural man, as described in 1 Cor 2:14, the ability to believe in the things of the Spirit, and I am believing that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit until he has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that is given in the new birth. Eph 2, when the natural man was dead, spiritually, and could not respond to accepting spiritual things until after God gives him the new birth. After we have been born again, we are just babes in Christ and do not start out our new life with the full understanding of the gospel. We grow in knowledge, just as a new born does, as we are taught the truths of the gospel. There are those that are born again and are lacking in the knowledge of the gospel that do not believe fully (the all men) and there are those that have grown in knowledge and believe the full gospel. (especially of those that believe).
1 Cor. 2:10-14 speaks of the deep things of God where an unsaved (natural man) cannot comprehend. Salvation is so simple which is offered to everyone. It is heard through gospel preaching. With the entrance of his word gives light (Psalms 119:130),. The fact that sinner can comprehend the gospel truth because it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation to those who will believe Romans 1;16. thus it's only a matter of belief and unbelief to the gospel truth and of Christ. So the things that a natural man cannot comprehend are concerning the deep things of God as per context.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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1 Cor. 2:10-14 speaks of the deep things of God where an unsaved (natural man) cannot comprehend. Salvation is so simple which is offered to everyone. It is heard through gospel preaching. With the entrance of his word gives light (Psalms 119:130),. The fact that sinner can comprehend the gospel truth because it is the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation to those who will believe Romans 1;16. thus it's only a matter of belief and unbelief to the gospel truth and of Christ. So the things that a natural man cannot comprehend are concerning the deep things of God as per context.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Yes, once one is saved and given the Holy Spirit, then they have the power to know the deep things of God. They must follow after the Spirit and not after the flesh. A carnal Christian cannot know the meat of the word for he is carnal, a babe in Christ.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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Yes, once one is saved and given the Holy Spirit, then they have the power to know the deep things of God. They must follow after the Spirit and not after the flesh. A carnal Christian cannot know the meat of the word for he is carnal, a babe in Christ.
That's right Sir John, a babe needs a sure milk of the word, this is why a babe still needs a guidance, he has to learn the fundamental truths in the bible. Yet on another occasion in the Book of Acts that there is indeed a need of preacher to help us understand about Jesus and his gospel.

Acts 8:30-32 King James Version (KJV)
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Aren't some vessels prepared for destruction and some for mercy? (might have gotten that wrong) Doesn't that mean some people are predestined for hell (or even, everyone who goes there was predestined for there?)?

NO

God says WHOSOEVER WILL

He does not create humans like logs for damming in the lake of fire

the Bible states that the lake of fire was created for the devil and his angels...Jesus died for us so that we might believe and have eternal life...NOT eternal life

if the lake of fire was created for the devil, it is not biblical to state God also creates humans for the same
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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This is completely incorrect and inconsistent with what is actually in the Bible. Before his conversion, Paul (then Saul) was persecuting Christians and having them imprisoned: As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison... And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest... (Acts 8:3;9:1). He was also an accessory to the murder of Stephen.

So how could he have possibly been born of the Spirit at that time? Do you see how warped your theology is? And you persist in your false beliefs, and have been doing so for a very long time. So in fact, there is no remedy for you.
You, evidently, do not take into consideration all of the scriptures. David was "a man after God's own heart", yet, he committed adultery, committed murder and lied. You will never understand the grace of God, until you understand how depraved we all are by nature, even after we have been born again. Jesus paid for the sins of the elect, but we are still chastened by God's love when we commit a sin.