John 5.4: Angel stirred up the pool - is it biblical?

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SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#21
@User46952

Some more things to consider when we speak of the difference between natural vs supernatural healing.



1. When healing is supernatural, the power of the Holy Spirit is what carries out the healing, by bringing life into the body that is sick:

Luke 8:42-46 As Jesus was on his way, the crowds almost crushed him. And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years, but no one could heal her. She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped.
“Who touched me?” Jesus asked. (...) “Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me.



2. Healing by natural means happens gradually or slowly over time. But when the God heals someone supernaturally, the Bible states it was done on the spot, also using phrases like "in the same hour", or "immediately":

Luke 8:47-48 Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. Then he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace.”

also see example in verse 44 earlier, "and immediately her bleeding stopped."


People at the pool were getting well instantly on the spot, and not slowly over time.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,046
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#22
Well saints I'm not here to argue but I think your reading way to much into this.
There were many superstition back in the day of Jesus.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,046
859
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#23

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THE POOL OF BETHESDA
This is the site of one of only two miracles that Jesus performed in Jerusalem, both associated with water (the other being the blind man’s healing at the Pool of Siloam in John 9:1-12). Water was always critical for life in this part of the world. Tired pilgrims would head here in large crowds to refresh themselves and partake in ritual cleansings before going to the Temple. During this festival time, with exceptionally huge crowds, Jesus knew it would be packed with eyewitnesses.
John 5:1-9 records what happened next:
“After these things there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porticoes. In these lay a multitude of those who were sick, blind, lame, and withered, [waiting for the moving of the waters; for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool and stirred up the water; whoever then first, after the stirring up of the water, stepped in was made well from whatever disease with which he was afflicted.] A man was there who had been ill for thirty-eight years. When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he had already been a long time in that condition, He said to him, ‘Do you wish to get well?’ The sick man answered Him, ‘Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up, but while I am coming, another steps down before me.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Get up, pick up your pallet and walk.’ Immediately the man became well, and picked up his pallet and began to walk. Now it was the Sabbath on that day.”
Located in the Muslim Quarter near the Church of St. Anne and the Lions Gate (then known as the Sheep Gate because of access to the Temple for sacrificing lambs), the large site is completely obvious as a major hole in the ground. Since it is below ground level, the only access to the pools is by a stairway. Discovered in 1956, there are two sizable rectangular reservoirs to collect rainwater, with four colonnaded porticos around the sides and one opposite it, confirming John’s account of five colonnades. The southern reservoir has steps and a landing, which indicates it was a ritual bath (a mikveh). The other one appears to be a reserve pool to replenish the mikveh, and probably created the movement of waters when the dam was opened up for clean water.
Bethesda means “house of mercy” in Hebrew, and the pool’s healing powers was a long held pagan tradition, as evidenced by a Greek-healing site nearby, and had nothing to do with God’s mercy. The fact that Jesus ignored it, unlike the blind man who washed in the Pool of Siloam, confirms this as well. In Greece, Asclepius was the god of medicine, and this pool was part of the Hellenization of Judea, like the non-Jewish theaters and bathhouses in Judea.
Some Christians don’t understand this pagan aspect of the pool because a copyist, unfamiliar with Asclepius and the pagan pool himself, added the angel stirring up the waters to help the reader understand. Most modern Bibles bracket the text [3b-4] to show that the earliest and most reliable manuscripts do not include this uninspired addition.
Nevertheless, the importance of these two types of miracles reveals a hidden messianic purpose for Jesus. He heals a lame man at the Bethesda Pool and a blind man at the Pool of Siloam, both of which bear witness to His Davidic identity as Messiah, as we see in 2 Samuel 2:5-8,
“Now the king and his men went to Jerusalem against the Jebusites, the inhabitants of the land, and they said to David, ‘You shall not come in here, but the blind and lame will turn you away’; thinking, ‘David cannot enter here.’ Nevertheless, David captured the stronghold of Zion, that is the city of David. David said on that day, ‘Whoever would strike the Jebusites, let him reach the lame and the blind, who are hated by David's soul, through the water tunnel.’ Therefore they say, ‘The blind or the lame shall not come into the house.’”
As a descendant of King David (Matthew 1:17), who cursed the inhabitants of the Jebusite city for mocking his authority because they didn’t recognize him as God’s king, Jesus now shares David’s “honor” in being rejected by the new “Jebusites” of Jerusalem. Instead of a curse, He heals those same two groups David cursed, the blind and the lame. This pool is where Jesus performed one of those two identity-revealing miracles with huge spiritual ramifications for a now blind and broken Israel, who like the Jebusites of old, didn’t recognize Israel’s king again (1 Peter 2:4-8).
There are not too many places where you can point to the actual spot of a miracle, like the Pool of Siloam, but this is definitely one of them. The Pool of Bethesda makes for a fascinating stop during your travels.
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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,046
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#24
What does Raphael have to do with this discussion? The Gospel does not name the angel. That is simply a red herring.
Raphael is a made up angel. Nowhere to be found by name in the Bible. The only angel described as to heal. Connect the dots brother.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#25
Raphael (/ˈræfiəl/; Hebrew: רְפָאֵל, translit. Rāfāʾēl, lit. 'It is God who heals', 'God Heals', 'God, Please Heal'; Ancient Greek: Ραφαήλ, Coptic: ⲣⲁⲫⲁⲏⲗ, Arabic: رفائيل‎ or إسرافيل Ethiopic (Ge'ez):ሩፋኤል ) is an archangel responsible for healing in the traditions of most Abrahamic religions. Not all branches of these religions consider the identification of Raphael to be canonical.

Saint Raphael the Archangel

Saint Raphael the Archangel by Bartolomé Esteban Murillo
Archangel, 'Angel of Tobit', Angel of the Trumpet Venerated in Judaism
Roman Catholic Church
Eastern Catholic Churches
Eastern Orthodox Church
Oriental Orthodox Church
Anglican Communion
IslamCanonized Pre-CongregationFeast
Attributes Archangel holding a bottle or flask; Archangel walking with Tobias; Archangel sounding a trumpet; young man carrying a fish; young man carrying a staffPatronage Apothecaries; Ordained marriage; blind people; bodily ills; diocese of Madison, WI; druggists; archdiocese of Dubuque, Iowa; eye problems; guardian angels; happy meetings; insanity; lovers; mental illness; nightmares; nurses; pharmacists; healing; physicians; archdiocese of Seattle, Washington; Abra de Ilog, Mindoro Occidental, Philippines; Aloguinsan, Cebu, Philippines; shepherds; sick people; travelers; young people

In Christianity, Raphael is generally associated with an unnamed angel mentioned in the Gospel of John, who stirs the water at the healing pool of Bethesda. Raphael is recognized as an angel in the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as he is briefly mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants.[2] Raphael is an important figure in the Book of Tobit, which is accepted as canonical by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and some Anglicans.

In Islam, Raphael is the fourth major angel; and in the Muslim tradition, he is known as Isrāfīl. Though unnamed in the Quran, hadith identifies Israfil with the angel of Quran 6:73. Within Islamic eschatology, Israfil is traditionally attributed to a trumpet, which is poised at his lips, and when God so commands he shall be ready to announce the Day of Resurrection.


Just when you thought I wasn't looking..😉😉😉😉
Exactly where in the bible is this particular angel mentioned by name? Of course, there are myths but the people and events mentioned in the bible are basis of fact. It is not relevant what groups associate or reason about in the who, what, when, where, why. The only thing that is relevant is the truth as stated in the bible. This is the gold standard to ascertain whether or not something, as you have stated is a myth or a wives tale.
 

pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
4,046
859
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#26
Exactly where in the bible is this particular angel mentioned by name? Of course, there are myths but the people and events mentioned in the bible are basis of fact. It is not relevant what groups associate or reason about in the who, what, when, where, why. The only thing that is relevant is the truth as stated in the bible. This is the gold standard to ascertain whether or not something, as you have stated is a myth or a wives tale.
I my gosh I can't believe we're still on this challenge.
How long was this man there? How long had he been waiting?
Where is there another story about a healing angel?
Where does it say that this actually occured?
After the years of waiting such as this man did you would think someone would help him.

Let's put it this way...if it were true then in the years past everyone would of passed through this pool and Jesus would not to have healed any one.
Show me scripture that the Lord created such a place in Jerusalem and instructed people to go there.
That's not what the story's about.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
32,767
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#27
Let's put it this way...if it were true then in the years past everyone would of passed through this pool and Jesus would not to have healed any one.
Show me scripture that the Lord created such a place in Jerusalem and instructed people to go there.
That's not what the story's about.
The story is in fact true because it is scripture. The bible does not state how frequent the angel stirred the pool and even then, only the first person that entered it was healed and not everyone else. Regarding healing, Jesus does not heal because He has to but rather because He choses to do so. The Lord did create such a place for the express purpose of healing that one man that was not able to ever be the first one in after the water was stirred by the angel. I do not see the relevance of whether or not, in scripture, that the Lord instructed anyone to go there in the hopes of being healed in regards to the veracity of the story.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,958
1,521
113
#29
An angel is a unseen messenger of God .God's message. Not of or by a angel that has form.

Angels of God have no will of their own. Satan fell from that position when God discovered pride .

It was simply a healing to represent the first born set aside to show the power of the gospel. Believers are to have no gods as messenger according to the things seen. When the apostles were used as angels those who have no faith made them gods in the likeness of men .Blasphemy
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,953
1,188
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#30
Well saints I'm not here to argue but I think your reading way to much into this.
There were many superstition back in the day of Jesus.
sure

and there still are. many superstitions and I cannot imagine why you have taken it upon yourself to insist the topic of the op is yet another one while scripture gives no such indication

smh
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,953
1,188
113
#31
I my gosh I can't believe we're still on this challenge.
How long was this man there? How long had he been waiting?
Where is there another story about a healing angel?
Where does it say that this actually occured?
After the years of waiting such as this man did you would think someone would help him.

Let's put it this way...if it were true then in the years past everyone would of passed through this pool and Jesus would not to have healed any one.
Show me scripture that the Lord created such a place in Jerusalem and instructed people to go there.
That's not what the story's about.

from where I stand, it seems really to be that is keeping it going

apparently it is a stumbling block to you (jking sort of)
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,061
1,177
113
#32
Raphael (/ˈræfiəl/; Hebrew: רְפָאֵל, translit. Rāfāʾēl, lit. 'It is God who heals', 'God Heals', 'God, Please Heal'; Ancient Greek: Ραφαήλ, Coptic: ⲣⲁⲫⲁⲏⲗ, Arabic: رفائيل‎ or إسرافيل Ethiopic (Ge'ez):ሩፋኤል ) is an archangel responsible for healing in the traditions of most Abrahamic religions. Not all branches of these religions consider the identification of Raphael to be canonical.

Saint Raphael the Archangel

Saint Raphael the Archangel by Bartolomé Esteban Murillo
Archangel, 'Angel of Tobit', Angel of the Trumpet Venerated in Judaism
Roman Catholic Church
Eastern Catholic Churches
Eastern Orthodox Church
Oriental Orthodox Church
Anglican Communion
IslamCanonized Pre-CongregationFeast
Attributes Archangel holding a bottle or flask; Archangel walking with Tobias; Archangel sounding a trumpet; young man carrying a fish; young man carrying a staffPatronage Apothecaries; Ordained marriage; blind people; bodily ills; diocese of Madison, WI; druggists; archdiocese of Dubuque, Iowa; eye problems; guardian angels; happy meetings; insanity; lovers; mental illness; nightmares; nurses; pharmacists; healing; physicians; archdiocese of Seattle, Washington; Abra de Ilog, Mindoro Occidental, Philippines; Aloguinsan, Cebu, Philippines; shepherds; sick people; travelers; young people

In Christianity, Raphael is generally associated with an unnamed angel mentioned in the Gospel of John, who stirs the water at the healing pool of Bethesda. Raphael is recognized as an angel in the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, as he is briefly mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants.[2] Raphael is an important figure in the Book of Tobit, which is accepted as canonical by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and some Anglicans.

In Islam, Raphael is the fourth major angel; and in the Muslim tradition, he is known as Isrāfīl. Though unnamed in the Quran, hadith identifies Israfil with the angel of Quran 6:73. Within Islamic eschatology, Israfil is traditionally attributed to a trumpet, which is poised at his lips, and when God so commands he shall be ready to announce the Day of Resurrection.

Now I'm watching you..😏😏😏
That's weird. Do you believe what you posted there refutes the scripture I posted that renounces your claim of myth and wives tale?
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,061
1,177
113
#33
from where I stand, it seems really to be that is keeping it going

apparently it is a stumbling block to you (jking sort of)
I think what we're reading clay to be saying is that God's word is actually myth, wives tales, and ongoing superstition.
Maybe it should be us that watches them.
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,953
1,188
113
#34
I think what we're reading clay to be saying is that God's word is actually myth, wives tales, and ongoing superstition.
Maybe it should be us that watches them.
I can't figure why all of a sudden the scripture regarding the stirring of the water is a myth

were people healed or not? apparently they were, so then by what? suggestion? :cautious:
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
12,644
5,623
113
#35
I cannot imagine why you have taken it upon yourself to insist the topic of the op is yet another one while scripture gives no such indication
He's trying to create a *new* pot on his potter's wheel. The Higher Critics called the Old Testament narratives myths, legends, and fables because of UNBELIEF.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
32,213
10,319
113
#36
"John 5:4: For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had."

How does this be biblical?

* faith or holiness was not required to get cured. Only eligibility was to become the first person into the pool.
Were they not there because they had faith in being healed?
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,445
113
#37
Yes and why not?

a. In scripture ☆
b. Written as true ☆
c. Not called false ☆
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
1,445
992
113
#38
It's Biblical because it is Scripture........goodness.........

As well, this was under the 1st Covenant, where things were different than they are now under the New Covenant, Grace.................

Still it is to be considered that just like the man-made laws of the Pharisees it could have come about that is more to it.

I do believe it is said in that passage that "anyone that went into the pool would be healed" (with additional stipulations) correct me if I'm wrong. It takes faith to wait by a pool to get healed (Naaman)...but the element of faith is different although still faith.

I have been extremely interested in this passage of late and I'll have to consider whether or not to share my insights about the original post (OP). I thank the original poster (O.P) for bringing this up

You asked some good questions below:

What is the difference between the above pool and some so-called holy ponds/rivers in today's world where people take bath for their wellness?
Can a Christian believe on such places to get cured? If no, how does the pool in john 5.4 be biblical?


even if they haven't been entirely thought through factoring in each precept...maybe think about it some more and post it yourself? It usually makes it more productive to interact with a thread with an active O.P.

I'll take a glance again at this later
 

lenna

Well-known member
Jun 2, 2020
1,953
1,188
113
#39
He's trying to create a *new* pot on his potter's wheel. The Higher Critics called the Old Testament narratives myths, legends, and fables because of UNBELIEF.
I must be on the low end of the critic scale then :eek: :giggle:
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,061
1,177
113
#40
He's trying to create a *new* pot on his potter's wheel. The Higher Critics called the Old Testament narratives myths, legends, and fables because of UNBELIEF.
Maybe the unbelief we should pay attention to isn't in that place we're being directed to look.



I can't figure why all of a sudden the scripture regarding the stirring of the water is a myth

were people healed or not? apparently they were, so then by what? suggestion? :cautious:
I think what we need to look at is someone who is calling the Bible book filled with myths, legends, fables, and wives tales.
I'm thinking we're witnessing a de-conversion and the "de" is hoping to gain followers for their new found, or maybe not so new? Unbelief.

Those with more time here maybe know the answer. Ever read a Bible believing Christian that talks like what we're reading here and elsewhere on this board now? :(